Mountain Biker Finally Admits: NARROW TRAILS CANNOT BE SHARED!

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... <snip>

Stop burning SUV's.

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is the first and only time I have ever seen a mountain biker admit

the

Quoted message said:

obvious fact that NARROW TRAILS CANNOT BE SHARED!

Mike

Tue, 26 Aug 2003: To: [email hidden] From: [email hidden] Subject: Re: <Pick your>
Summit Trail

Hello Jim,

Dave and I have been leading a drive at <pick your> Gap, on the first

Sunday of

Quoted message said:

every month for about 3 years. On the occasions we meet hikers, somebody has to get out of the way
since the trails are too narrow in places to take both Jeeps and a hikers comfortably (especially
in the more technical spots). If there are 20 Jeeps in our group the hikers watch with amazement
at what we can do. Often there are many more groups of Jeeps on the trail (typically in groups of
3-6 vehicles). Sometimes, we wait for

the hikers to

Quoted message said:

pass, other times they wait for us.

The <Pick your> Gap Trail is fun to drive. If the current trail would have

to be

Quoted message said:

modified so that all groups could use it comfortably, I would rather keep

the

Quoted message said:

main trail as it is (with some technically challenging places) and build a

parallel

Quoted message said:

route for the hikers to use. ["'LET' the hikers use a separate trail"!

Don't you mean "Kick

Quoted message said:

the hikers off our trail, just because it is fun for us to use by

ourselves"?! NO!, I mean build

Quoted message said:

a parallel route that gives hikers access to the same beauty they have

now, but is easier

Quoted message said:

to walk on.

I would like to apologize to the mountian biking community. I was trying to illustrate how stupid MV
is, and it appears that I might have been discourteous to you guys.

Frankly, as a Jeep driver, we share many of the same issues as you to, except the trails are not
single track. Sometimes they are nothing more than two-track, but normally our run-ins with hikers
are on roads that can hold a motor vehicle but not a vehicle and a pedestrian. When this happens, we
either take the right of way of yield it, depending upon what makes the most sense and is the most
friendly thing to do.

You guys on essentially foot trails admittedly have less room to move about, but the big issue is
the shear number of visitors that share the limited number of routes. Frankly, I don't know the
difference in a foot trail and a bike route unless there is a sign, but I can tell the difference in
a route where my Jeep will fit and where it won't, I don't go places where I can't fit my Jeep. Most
hikers don't use vehicle routes, so our conflicts are probably lesser in number.

One thing we do share is morons like MV that have the sole agenda of closing routes to anything but
a vibram sole, and he is ultimately after those too but he has to start somewhere.

"Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is the first and only time I have ever seen a mountain biker admit

the

Quoted message said:

obvious fact that NARROW TRAILS CANNOT BE SHARED!

Mike

Tue, 26 Aug 2003: To: [email hidden] From: [email hidden] Subject: Re: <Pick
your> Summit Trail

Hello Jim,

Dave and I have been leading a drive at <pick your> Gap, on the first

Sunday of

Quoted message said:

every month for about 3 years. On the occasions we meet hikers, somebody has to get out of the
way since the trails are too narrow in places to take both Jeeps and a hikers comfortably
(especially in the more technical spots). If there are 20 Jeeps in our group the hikers watch

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

amazement at what we can do. Often there are many more groups of Jeeps

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the trail (typically in groups of 3-6 vehicles). Sometimes, we wait for

the hikers to

Quoted message said:

pass, other times they wait for us.

The <Pick your> Gap Trail is fun to drive. If the current trail would

have

Quoted message said:

to be

Quoted message said:

modified so that all groups could use it comfortably, I would rather

keep

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

main trail as it is (with some technically challenging places) and build

a

Quoted message said:

parallel

Quoted message said:

route for the hikers to use. ["'LET' the hikers use a separate trail"!

Don't you mean "Kick

Quoted message said:

the hikers off our trail, just because it is fun for us to use by

ourselves"?! NO!, I mean build

Quoted message said:

a parallel route that gives hikers access to the same beauty they have

now, but is easier

Quoted message said:

to walk on.

On 28 Aug 2003 13:07:57 -0700, [email hidden] (R.White) wrote:

.Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... .<snip> . .Stop burning SUV's.

Why?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

home.pacbell.netmjvandeOpen ↗

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:58:26 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote:

.I would like to apologize to the mountian biking community. I was trying to .illustrate how stupid
MV is, and it appears that I might have been .discourteous to you guys. . .Frankly, as a Jeep
driver, we share many of the same issues as you to, .except the trails are not single track.
Sometimes they are nothing more than .two-track, but normally our run-ins with hikers are on roads
that can hold a .motor vehicle but not a vehicle and a pedestrian. When this happens, we .either
take the right of way of yield it, depending upon what makes the most .sense and is the most
friendly thing to do. . .You guys on essentially foot trails admittedly have less room to move
about, .but the big issue is the shear number of visitors that share the limited .number of routes.
Frankly, I don't know the difference in a foot trail and a .bike route unless there is a sign, but I
can tell the difference in a route .where my Jeep will fit and where it won't, I don't go places
where I can't .fit my Jeep. Most hikers don't use vehicle routes, so our conflicts are .probably
lesser in number. . .One thing we do share is morons like MV that have the sole agenda of closing
.routes to anything but a vibram sole, and he is ultimately after those too

Yes. They are destructive.

.but he has to start somewhere. . . . ."Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .> .> "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message .> "]news:[email hidden]... .> > This is the first and only time I
have ever seen a mountain biker admit .> the .> > obvious fact that NARROW TRAILS CANNOT BE SHARED!
.> > .> > Mike .> > .> > .> > Tue, 26 Aug 2003: .> > To: [email hidden] .> > From:
[email hidden] .> > Subject: Re: <Pick your> Summit Trail .> > .> > Hello Jim, .> > .> > Dave and
I have been leading a drive at <pick your> Gap, on the first .> Sunday of .> > every month for about
3 years. On the occasions we meet hikers, somebody .> > has to get out of the way since the trails
are too narrow in places to .> > take both Jeeps and a hikers comfortably (especially in the more .>

Quoted message said:

technical spots). If there are 20 Jeeps in our group the hikers watch .with .> > amazement at what

we can do. Often there are many more groups of Jeeps .on .> > the trail (typically in groups of 3-6
vehicles). Sometimes, we wait for .> the hikers to .> > pass, other times they wait for us. .> > .>

Quoted message said:

The <Pick your> Gap Trail is fun to drive. If the current trail would .have .> to be .> > modified

so that all groups could use it comfortably, I would rather .keep .> the .> > main trail as it is
(with some technically challenging places) and build .a .> parallel .> > route for the hikers to
use. ["'LET' the hikers use a separate trail"! .> Don't you mean "Kick .> > the hikers off our
trail, just because it is fun for us to use by .> ourselves"?! NO!, I mean build .> > a parallel
route that gives hikers access to the same beauty they have .> now, but is easier .> > to walk on.
.> > .> .> .> .> .

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

home.pacbell.netmjvandeOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

.One thing we do share is morons like MV that have the sole agenda of

closing

Quoted message said:

.routes to anything but a vibram sole, and he is ultimately after those

too

Quoted message said:

Yes. They are destructive.

There you have it ladies and gentlemen, Mike's agenda is to erect a fence around all open spaces
and lock everybody out. It is not about bikes, it is about access. He seeks to halt all access
in any form.

Quoted message said:

I would like to apologize to the mountian biking community. I was trying to illustrate how stupid
MV is, and it appears that I might have been discourteous to you guys.

Nah, don't worry about it - we get it. BTW, I'm a Jeep driver too ('03 TJ Sport), it's just that
where I live it's a lot harder to find a LEGAL trail for my Jeep then my mountain bike. I don't take
my Jeep off-road illegally, since I do believe that it does have enviromental impact in places like
central New Jersey, where nature spots are scarce(sp?). So, I decided to take up mountain biking,
because I wanted to be away from highways with their litter and exaust. I'm also a hunter and an
angler. Hunting & Fishing communities are comprised of people who respect nature more than anyone
else! Imagine my surprise when I came to this group and found MV screaming about the monsters on two
wheels destroying our planet. As far as my theory on MV, I'm sticking to my story: childhood trauma,
possibly other kids running him over with their bikes while he was planting his garden. This type of
behavior can only be warranted by that type of thing.

Now, as far as subject on hand: This past weekend my wife and I, plus another couple took our bikes
to Patriot's Path in Morristown, NJ. What a beautiful trail! I live 5 min. away and heard of it
before, but haven't been there thinking the reports have been exagerrated. Along the way we ran into
many HIKERS and JOGGERS. Sometimes WE got off the trail to go around them, sometimes they did to
make way for us. All this without any hostility. We smiled at each other and said hello. So I don't
see what the big deal is.

On 3 Sep 2003 08:49:31 -0700, [email hidden] (Igor) wrote:

.> I would like to apologize to the mountian biking community. I was trying to .> illustrate how
stupid MV is, and it appears that I might have been .> discourteous to you guys. . .Nah, don't worry
about it - we get it. BTW, I'm a Jeep driver too ('03 .TJ Sport), it's just that where I live it's a
lot harder to find a .LEGAL trail for my Jeep then my mountain bike. I don't take my Jeep .off-road
illegally, since I do believe that it does have enviromental .impact in places like central New
Jersey, where nature spots are .scarce(sp?). So, I decided to take up mountain biking, because I
.wanted to be away from highways with their litter and exaust. I'm also .a hunter and an angler.
Hunting & Fishing communities are comprised of .people who respect nature more than anyone else!
Imagine my surprise .when I came to this group and found MV screaming about the monsters on .two
wheels destroying our planet. As far as my theory on MV, I'm .sticking to my story: childhood
trauma, possibly other kids running .him over with their bikes while he was planting his garden.
This type .of behavior can only be warranted by that type of thing. . . .Now, as far as subject on
hand: This past weekend my wife and I, plus .another couple took our bikes to Patriot's Path in
Morristown, NJ. .What a beautiful trail! I live 5 min. away and heard of it before, but .haven't
been there thinking the reports have been exagerrated. Along .the way we ran into many HIKERS and
JOGGERS. Sometimes WE got off the .trail to go around them,

I thought you said you don't drive illegally. Riding off-trail is illegal. Jerk.

sometimes they did to make way for us. All .this without any hostility. We smiled at each other and
said hello. So .I don't see what the big deal is.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

home.pacbell.netmjvandeOpen ↗

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:37:23 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote:

. ."Igor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .> > I would like to apologize to the
mountian biking community. I was trying .to .> > illustrate how stupid MV is, and it appears that I
might have been .> > discourteous to you guys. .> .> Nah, don't worry about it - we get it. BTW, I'm
a Jeep driver too ('03 .> TJ Sport), it's just that where I live it's a lot harder to find a .>
LEGAL trail for my Jeep then my mountain bike. I don't take my Jeep .> off-road illegally, since I
do believe that it does have enviromental .> impact in places like central New Jersey, where nature
spots are .> scarce(sp?). So, I decided to take up mountain biking, because I .> wanted to be away
from highways with their litter and exaust. I'm also .> a hunter and an angler. Hunting & Fishing
communities are comprised of .> people who respect nature more than anyone else! Imagine my surprise
.> when I came to this group and found MV screaming about the monsters on .> two wheels destroying
our planet. As far as my theory on MV, I'm .> sticking to my story: childhood trauma, possibly other
kids running .> him over with their bikes while he was planting his garden. This type .> of behavior
can only be warranted by that type of thing. .> . .I think you are smart to not drive illegally.

You didn't read his post carefully. He bikes off-trail.

I don't think the impact of .your exhaust is all that critical though, and you shouldn't worry about
it .so much. Your exhaust is important, but the problem the environment faces .comes from you
exhaust no matter if you are driving on the freeway, going to .get a gallon of milk, or offroading
to your favorite fishing spot. The .problem for the trees comes from the tons of smog that blow in
from the .metropolitan areas, not from the relatively few vehicles that actually drive .in the
forest. New Jersey, and the Northeast in general, have the highest .concentration of public lands
that are closed to vehicles of any where else .in the USA. There are entire states that prohibit
offroad travel, and vast .areas of public lands are closed to access, except by pavement. . . .> .>
Now, as far as subject on hand: This past weekend my wife and I, plus .> another couple took our
bikes to Patriot's Path in Morristown, NJ. .> What a beautiful trail! I live 5 min. away and heard
of it before, but .> haven't been there thinking the reports have been exagerrated. Along .> the way
we ran into many HIKERS and JOGGERS. Sometimes WE got off the .> trail to go around them, sometimes
they did to make way for us. All .> this without any hostility. We smiled at each other and said
hello. So .> I don't see what the big deal is. . .I think the vast majority of us accept the notion
that we are not the only .one on the planet that likes to get off the couch on Saturday and go to
the .forest/desert/mountains/lake/<whatever>, and when we actually encounter .another person tat
shares our interest in the .forest/desert/mountains/lake/<whatever>, then we can exchange a
pleasantry .despite the fact the other person is a moron because they are walking and we .are
riding, or vice versa.

No, you are a moron for destroying the environment, just for your selfish pleasure.

I think we all understand that there are just not .enough places where everybody can go, and we are
undoubtedly going to .encounter another visitor. . .I live in California, and I can drive for hours
in our local desert and not .see another traveller,

Wildlife don't travel? Idiot.

other times I have to pull to the side to let people .pass, or pass me because I go so slow. I can
go the the mountains and find .trails that have virtually no other people on them on the day that I
am .there, and find trails that are covered with visitors - on the same day. It .is really just a
matter of how far from the parking lot one is able to get. . .Mike seems to be the only visitor to
public lands that can not share.

You are lying. I am happy to share trails with HUMANS. Bicycles are not human. DUH!

This .entire thread was started by Mike when he crossposted what appears to be .private email from
the leaders of the mountain bike community that recognize .that the conflicts between bikes and
hikers is an issue that needs to be .addressed. They are saying that they need to share, and they
need to find a .way to share that results in fair access to all users. .

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

home.pacbell.netmjvandeOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I think you are smart to not drive illegally. I don't think the impact of your exhaust is all that
critical though, and you shouldn't worry about it so much.

Actually, I'm more concerned about antifreeze/oil/gasoline spills. Animals LOVE antifreeze, and the
results are not pretty.

Quoted message said:

Mike seems to be the only visitor to public lands that can not share.

Exactly. In two years of my MTB experience, I haven't gotten as much as one dirty look from anyone -
hiker/jogger/skier/biker on ANY trail.

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:37:23 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

. ."Igor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .> > I would like to apologize to the
mountian biking community. I was

trying

Quoted message said:

.to .> > illustrate how stupid MV is, and it appears that I might have been .> > discourteous to
you guys. .> .> Nah, don't worry about it - we get it. BTW, I'm a Jeep driver too ('03 .> TJ
Sport), it's just that where I live it's a lot harder to find a .> LEGAL trail for my Jeep then my
mountain bike. I don't take my Jeep .> off-road illegally, since I do believe that it does have
enviromental .> impact in places like central New Jersey, where nature spots are .> scarce(sp?).
So, I decided to take up mountain biking, because I .> wanted to be away from highways with their
litter and exaust. I'm also .> a hunter and an angler. Hunting & Fishing communities are comprised
of .> people who respect nature more than anyone else! Imagine my surprise .> when I came to this
group and found MV screaming about the monsters on .> two wheels destroying our planet. As far as
my theory on MV, I'm .> sticking to my story: childhood trauma, possibly other kids running .> him
over with their bikes while he was planting his garden. This type .> of behavior can only be
warranted by that type of thing. .> . .I think you are smart to not drive illegally.

You didn't read his post carefully. He bikes off-trail.

You did not read his post correctly, he said he owns a Jeep that he does not drive offroad
illegally.

Quoted message said:

I don't think the impact of .your exhaust is all that critical though, and you shouldn't
worry about

it

Quoted message said:

.so much. Your exhaust is important, but the problem the environment faces .comes from you exhaust
no matter if you are driving on the freeway, going

to

Quoted message said:

.get a gallon of milk, or offroading to your favorite fishing spot. The .problem for the trees
comes from the tons of smog that blow in from the .metropolitan areas, not from the relatively few
vehicles that actually

drive

Quoted message said:

.in the forest. New Jersey, and the Northeast in general, have the highest .concentration of
public lands that are closed to vehicles of any where

else

Quoted message said:

.in the USA. There are entire states that prohibit offroad travel, and

vast

Quoted message said:

.areas of public lands are closed to access, except by pavement. . . .> .> Now, as far as subject
on hand: This past weekend my wife and I, plus .> another couple took our bikes to Patriot's Path
in Morristown, NJ. .> What a beautiful trail! I live 5 min. away and heard of it before, but .>
haven't been there thinking the reports have been exagerrated. Along .> the way we ran into many
HIKERS and JOGGERS. Sometimes WE got off the .> trail to go around them, sometimes they did to
make way for us. All .> this without any hostility. We smiled at each other and said hello. So .>
I don't see what the big deal is. . .I think the vast majority of us accept the notion that we
are not the

only

Quoted message said:

.one on the planet that likes to get off the couch on Saturday and go to

the

Quoted message said:

.forest/desert/mountains/lake/<whatever>, and when we actually encounter .another person tat
shares our interest in the .forest/desert/mountains/lake/<whatever>, then we can exchange a

pleasantry

Quoted message said:

.despite the fact the other person is a moron because they are walking and

we

Quoted message said:

.are riding, or vice versa.

No, you are a moron for destroying the environment, just for your selfish pleasure.

Riding a bike does not necessarily destroy the environment. Walking is an activity that can destroy
the environemnt, yet you accept that activity.

Quoted message said:

What a moron you are Mike. When people get off the trail to allows others to pass, they can simply
stand to the side of the trail to make room. There is no indication that going off trail is the
same as riding off trail.

Jeff,

He knows that. There just wasn't anything else to latch on to in my post, so he's picking on
words. Let him be, he's a miserable, unhappy person as it is. I used to think he was just trolling
for the hell of it, but I took a look at his web site and his problem appears to be much more
serious then that.

On 4 Sep 2003 09:09:57 -0700, [email hidden] (Igor) wrote:

.> I think you are smart to not drive illegally. I don't think the impact of .> your exhaust is all
that critical though, and you shouldn't worry about it .> so much. . .Actually, I'm more concerned
about antifreeze/oil/gasoline spills. .Animals LOVE antifreeze, and the results are not pretty. . .>
.> Mike seems to be the only visitor to public lands that can not share. . .Exactly. In two years of
my MTB experience, I haven't gotten as much .as one dirty look from anyone -
hiker/jogger/skier/biker on ANY trail.

But of course you have never ASKED them if they want to share a trail with bikes. DUH!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

home.pacbell.netmjvandeOpen ↗

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:44:46 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote:

. ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .> On 3 Sep 2003 08:49:31 -0700,
[email hidden] (Igor) wrote: .> .> .> I would like to apologize to the mountian biking
community. I was .trying to .> .> illustrate how stupid MV is, and it appears that I might have been
.> .> discourteous to you guys. .> . .> .Nah, don't worry about it - we get it. BTW, I'm a Jeep
driver too ('03 .> .TJ Sport), it's just that where I live it's a lot harder to find a .> .LEGAL
trail for my Jeep then my mountain bike. I don't take my Jeep .> .off-road illegally, since I do
believe that it does have enviromental .> .impact in places like central New Jersey, where nature
spots are .> .scarce(sp?). So, I decided to take up mountain biking, because I .> .wanted to be away
from highways with their litter and exaust. I'm also .> .a hunter and an angler. Hunting & Fishing
communities are comprised of .> .people who respect nature more than anyone else! Imagine my
surprise .> .when I came to this group and found MV screaming about the monsters on .> .two wheels
destroying our planet. As far as my theory on MV, I'm .> .sticking to my story: childhood trauma,
possibly other kids running .> .him over with their bikes while he was planting his garden. This
type .> .of behavior can only be warranted by that type of thing. .> . .> . .> .Now, as far as
subject on hand: This past weekend my wife and I, plus .> .another couple took our bikes to
Patriot's Path in Morristown, NJ. .> .What a beautiful trail! I live 5 min. away and heard of it
before, but .> .haven't been there thinking the reports have been exagerrated. Along .> .the way we
ran into many HIKERS and JOGGERS. Sometimes WE got off the .> .trail to go around them, .> .> I
thought you said you don't drive illegally. Riding off-trail is illegal. .Jerk. .> . .What a moron
you are Mike. When people get off the trail to allows others to .pass, they can simply stand to the
side of the trail to make room. There is .no indication that going off trail is the same as riding
off trail.

Oh, sure. I suppose that they get off their bike and LIFT it off the trail. Right. Idiot.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

home.pacbell.netmjvandeOpen ↗

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:41:25 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote:

. ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
."]news:[email hidden]... .> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:37:23 -0700, "Jeff
Strickland" <[email hidden]> .wrote: .> .> . .> ."Igor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
.> ."]news:[email hidden]... .> .> > I would like to apologize to the
mountian biking community. I was .trying .> .to .> .> > illustrate how stupid MV is, and it appears
that I might have been .> .> > discourteous to you guys. .> .> .> .> Nah, don't worry about it - we
get it. BTW, I'm a Jeep driver too ('03 .> .> TJ Sport), it's just that where I live it's a lot
harder to find a .> .> LEGAL trail for my Jeep then my mountain bike. I don't take my Jeep .> .>
off-road illegally, since I do believe that it does have enviromental .> .> impact in places like
central New Jersey, where nature spots are .> .> scarce(sp?). So, I decided to take up mountain
biking, because I .> .> wanted to be away from highways with their litter and exaust. I'm also .> .>
a hunter and an angler. Hunting & Fishing communities are comprised of .> .> people who respect
nature more than anyone else! Imagine my surprise .> .> when I came to this group and found MV
screaming about the monsters on .> .> two wheels destroying our planet. As far as my theory on MV,
I'm .> .> sticking to my story: childhood trauma, possibly other kids running .> .> him over with
their bikes while he was planting his garden. This type .> .> of behavior can only be warranted by
that type of thing. .> .> .> . .> .I think you are smart to not drive illegally. .> .> You didn't
read his post carefully. He bikes off-trail. .> . .You did not read his post correctly, he said he
owns a Jeep that he does not .drive offroad illegally. . . . .> I don't think the impact of .> .your
exhaust is all that critical though, and you shouldn't worry about .it .> .so much. Your exhaust is
important, but the problem the environment faces .> .comes from you exhaust no matter if you are
driving on the freeway, going .to .> .get a gallon of milk, or offroading to your favorite fishing
spot. The .> .problem for the trees comes from the tons of smog that blow in from the .>
.metropolitan areas, not from the relatively few vehicles that actually .drive .> .in the forest.
New Jersey, and the Northeast in general, have the highest .> .concentration of public lands that
are closed to vehicles of any where .else .> .in the USA. There are entire states that prohibit
offroad travel, and .vast .> .areas of public lands are closed to access, except by pavement. .> .
.> . .> .> .> .> Now, as far as subject on hand: This past weekend my wife and I, plus .> .> another
couple took our bikes to Patriot's Path in Morristown, NJ. .> .> What a beautiful trail! I live 5
min. away and heard of it before, but .> .> haven't been there thinking the reports have been
exagerrated. Along .> .> the way we ran into many HIKERS and JOGGERS. Sometimes WE got off the .> .>
trail to go around them, sometimes they did to make way for us. All .> .> this without any
hostility. We smiled at each other and said hello. So .> .> I don't see what the big deal is. .> .
.> .I think the vast majority of us accept the notion that we are not the .only .> .one on the
planet that likes to get off the couch on Saturday and go to .the .>
.forest/desert/mountains/lake/<whatever>, and when we actually encounter .> .another person tat
shares our interest in the .> .forest/desert/mountains/lake/<whatever>, then we can exchange a
.pleasantry .> .despite the fact the other person is a moron because they are walking and .we .>
.are riding, or vice versa. .> .> No, you are a moron for destroying the environment, just for your
selfish .> pleasure. .> . .Riding a bike does not necessarily destroy the environment.

Right, as long as you stay on PAVEMENT.

Walking is an .activity that can destroy the environemnt, yet you accept that activity.

Prove that lie. Idiot.
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Quoted message said:

Walking is an .activity that can destroy the environemnt, yet you accept that activity.

Prove that lie. Idiot.

The Grand Canyon suffers extensive trail erosin, and not a single mountain bike goes in there.
Yosemite suffere severe trail erosion and not a single bike goes in there. Two proofs. Idiot.

Does your parole officer know you are on the 'net again?

Quoted message said:

.What a moron you are Mike. When people get off the trail to allows others

to

Quoted message said:

.pass, they can simply stand to the side of the trail to make room. There

is

Quoted message said:

.no indication that going off trail is the same as riding off trail.

Oh, sure. I suppose that they get off their bike and LIFT it off the

trail.

Quoted message said:

Right. Idiot.

Not necessarily. I didn't suggest that they lift the bike off the ground. I only suggested that
they might stand to the side of the trail and wait for traffic to clear so that they can begin
riding again.

There are no guarantees that riding a bike is damaging to the trail system, and there are no
guarantees that hiking will always preserve the trail system. You are the one making blanket
statements that are totally unfounded and without any basis in fact. Idiot.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:17:51 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote:

. .> .What a moron you are Mike. When people get off the trail to allows others .to .> .pass, they
can simply stand to the side of the trail to make room. There .is .> .no indication that going off
trail is the same as riding off trail. .> .> Oh, sure. I suppose that they get off their bike and
LIFT it off the .trail. .> Right. Idiot. . . .Not necessarily. I didn't suggest that they lift the
bike off the ground. I .only suggested that they might stand to the side of the trail and wait for
.traffic to clear so that they can begin riding again.

And how do you think they got off the trail?! BY RIDING OFF THE TRAIL! DUH!

.There are no guarantees that riding a bike is damaging to the trail system,

Yes, there are.

.and there are no guarantees that hiking will always preserve the trail .system.

I never said it does, dimwit.

You are the one making blanket statements that are totally unfounded .and without any basis in
fact. Idiot. . .

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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:14:30 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email hidden]> wrote:

. .> Walking is an .> .activity that can destroy the environemnt, yet you accept that activity. .>
.> Prove that lie. Idiot. . . .The Grand Canyon suffers extensive trail erosin, and not a single
mountain .bike goes in there. Yosemite suffere severe trail erosion and not a single .bike goes in
there. Two proofs. Idiot. . .Does your parole officer know you are on the 'net again?

I was talking about your lie "you accept that activity". Prove it, liar.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

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