Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Is commuting dangerous?

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Cycling Equipment
Published
20 August 2003
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3 September 2003
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Scott
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  1. In article QPO0b.23723$at3.19982@edtnps84 said:

    For the last two mornings, my toddler and I waved goodbye to his mother as she commuted a short
    urban distance to work. She returned both times complaining of near misses by automobile commuters.
    The most dangerous section is ironically on a street that is part of a bike route.

    Statistics (assuming they're accurate) apply to general populations, and are only marginally
    relevant in individual situations (if you're not outside in thunderstorms, you're not going to be
    struck by lightning).

    Route selection helps - prefer roads with wide shoulders to make room for yourself, avoid separate
    bike paths because motor vehicle traffic on parallel and intersecting roads ignores them when
    turning, choose flatter routes for a minimal speed difference with traffic, etc.

    Being assertive helps. If there isn't enough room for you and a car, take the whole lane so they
    don't try to squeeze by. Get in front of the traffic at intersections so any one turning right is
    behind you where they can see. If traffic is moving slow in the right lane, there's a good chance
    some one is turning but doesn't have his blinker on - so pas in the left lane.

    Being visible is good. Lights, bright jackets, etc. are all good.

    I've been commuting by bike for over a decade, have gone through phases where I'd do any trip under
    30 miles round trip by bike (with a Bob trailer if necesasry for cargo - car parts, camping gear,
    etc) and haven't had any near misses I can recall apart from one where I stayed right of a slow
    moving q-tip driven Cadilac.

    --
    <a href="poohsticks.orgdrew">Home Page</a> The Congress shall assemble at least once in
    every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law
    appoint a different Day.

  2. Quoted message said:

    Okay let me have a go at it. Its the I'm bigger then that bicycle. A road I've
    travled for over 3 years twice a day 5 days a week just made me look at this word
    dangerous. Well yes I've been run in to a drainage ditch coming out of it un hurt.
    Now just about the same area the car hit my front tire in the tread sending wheel
    from the right to the left and knocking me into the road coming up with a broken
    collar- bone which was snapped in 3 places. It was just 6 weeks ago. I've come up
    with a way but not to stop riding is to use the sidewalk on other side of the road
    on this dangerous part of my commute.

    If you use a sidewalk, then to be safe, you should "act like a pedestrian" when crossing roads. That
    is, if there are any cars around, you shouldn't wizz by a cross road, but rather, take it slowly
    like a pedestrian would. Because you are much furhter out of radar of the drivers.

    Regards, Thunder9

  3. Too verbose.

    --
    Robin Hubert <[email hidden]>

    "Chris B." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Robin Hubert said:

    "Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I would say have a death wish. No helmets,
    >
    > So what?

    So no one is interested in your mug anyway, so be safe(r) and put a helmet on.

    Just to be consistent, wear one while you're doing all sorts of daily activities, such as
    walking, getting in and out of the shower, crossing


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    street, etc. Oh, and don't forget one while driving your car, riding the bus, a cab, etc.

    He's almost certainly a troll.

    If no, then I suspect that it hasn't occured to him that people actively turn away from his mug
    because when even the least discriminating look at it they immediately associate it with a
    horrible vacuity of reason and logic the likes of which they could never have imagined in a
    creature walking erect, let alone a safety nazi.

    A helmet could only help.

    --
    Chris Bird

  4. Weezerbot said:

    Mark Hickey:

    I'm sure life is all around much more wonderful for those living in Snottsdale, rather than us
    poor folks who have to live in Central/Downtown Phoenix, but the driving still sucks! Maybe those
    in Mercedes and Hummers can see a bicyclist easier, but get off your fancy bike path and come
    ride in the city on an adventure including the elderly and illegals, both of which should not be
    on the road.

    "Fancy bike path"? It is to laugh. I ride on the road.

    And I've ridden many 10's of thousands of miles in Florida - there are plenty of elderly and
    illegals there as well. More than I've seen in AZ, though I suppose if you rode in Sun City it would
    be pretty bad there.

    Quoted message said:

    P.S.-please try to not include Tempe and Snottsdale under the tent known as Phoenix...we don't
    really like it.

    Oooh, reverse snobbery... heh. What do I know? I live in Mesa. I've ridden plenty in Phoenix as
    well, and if you think that's the worst place in the world to ride - you really need to get out
    more. It's not even close.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

  5. "scott" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:QPO0b.23723$at3.19982@edtnps84...

    Quoted message said:

    For the last two mornings, my toddler and I waved goodbye to his mother as she commuted a short
    urban distance to work. She returned both times complaining of near misses by automobile
    commuters. The most dangerous section is ironically on a street that is part of a bike route.

    P 37 of Bicycling magazine (Sept 2003) wrote on the cyclist death rate in the US: "When rates are
    calculated based on distance traveled, that's 36 times greater than the automobile fatality rate
    and 11 times more dangerous than walking."

    36 times is a lot. She is quite keen on cycling and asked for a "one less car" sticker after
    seeing it on another bike, but I don't want to attend her funeral for a very long time.

    I haven't read that specific piece of sh** (i.e. Bicycling) but have seen numbers similar to that.
    However, these numbers typically lump in the same bag responsable cyclists, wrong-way cyclists,
    sidewalk cyclists and other road users on bike, yet car drivers who would have a similar behaviour
    would generally be ticketed. These numbers also include mountain trail riders and BMX riders who
    typically have more chance for mishaps (especially when accounted per mile) than on-road cyclists.

    johnforester.comjohnforester.com and kenkifer.comkenkifer.com have good explanations on the problem.

    Just for comparison, what would be your chance of fatality if you were *driving* your car while
    drunk, asleep, talking on the phone, shaving your face and eating at the same time? It seems that
    quite a few cyclists have equivalently-irresponsable behaviours.

    Regards, Michel

  6. Weezer-<< Give your bug a year....you will get to know your mechanic very well! Rice burners all the
    way!!!! >><BR><BR>

    My Beetle is 3.5 years old...only had a burnt out headlight...I love that car and would never look
    at a Hotoynisaru....

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

  7. scott <[email hidden]> wrote in news:QPO0b.23723$at3.19982@edtnps84:

    Quoted message said:

    P 37 of Bicycling magazine (Sept 2003) wrote on the cyclist death rate in the US: "When rates are
    calculated based on distance traveled, that's 36 times greater than the automobile fatality rate
    and 11 times more dangerous than walking."

    These numbers are deceptive. Many (or most) auto miles are on freeways which are pretty safe. Most
    cycling miles are in urban and suburban areas which have many intersections and are thus more
    dangerous. If you compare urban auto miles with urban cycling miles, the accident and fatality rates
    are going to be much closer.

  8. RE/

    Quoted message said:

    These numbers are deceptive. Many (or most) auto miles are on freeways which are pretty safe. Most
    cycling miles are in urban and suburban areas which have many intersections and are thus more
    dangerous. If you compare urban auto miles with urban cycling miles, the accident and fatality
    rates are going to be much closer.

    And they probably should be converted (how, I don't know) to accidents and fatality rates per hour
    of operation.

    x accidents per 1,000 miles for a car is probably at least four times as dangerous on a
    per-hour-exposure basis as the same number of accidents per 1,000 miles on a bike.
    -----------------------
    PeteCresswell

  9. "scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QPO0b.23723$at3.19982@edtnps84...

    Quoted message said:

    For the last two mornings, my toddler and I waved goodbye to his mother as she commuted a short
    urban distance to work. She returned both times complaining of near misses by automobile
    commuters. The most dangerous section is ironically on a street that is part of a bike route.

    P 37 of Bicycling magazine (Sept 2003) wrote on the cyclist death rate in the US: "When rates are
    calculated based on distance traveled, that's 36 times greater than the automobile fatality rate
    and 11 times more dangerous than walking."

    36 times is a lot. She is quite keen on cycling and asked for a "one less car" sticker after
    seeing it on another bike, but I don't want to attend her funeral for a very long time.

    I have been struck once (ambulance evac) and had many near misses on my own short bike commute and
    have vastly more experience on a bike than her. The Volkswagen dealership is looking tempting
    right now.

    Um, read your own post, and then ponder why you even had to ask the question.

  10. In article said:

    "scott" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
    news:QPO0b.23723$at3.19982@edtnps84...

    Quoted message said:

    For the last two mornings, my toddler and I waved goodbye to his mother as she commuted a short
    urban distance to work. She returned both times complaining of near misses by automobile
    commuters. The most dangerous section is ironically on a street that is part of a bike route.

    P 37 of Bicycling magazine (Sept 2003) wrote on the cyclist death rate in the US: "When rates
    are calculated based on distance traveled, that's 36 times greater than the automobile fatality
    rate and 11 times more dangerous than walking."

    36 times is a lot. She is quite keen on cycling and asked for a "one less car" sticker after
    seeing it on another bike, but I don't want to attend her funeral for a very long time.

    I haven't read that specific piece of sh** (i.e. Bicycling) but have seen numbers similar to that.
    However, these numbers typically lump in the same bag responsable cyclists, wrong-way cyclists,
    sidewalk cyclists and other road users on bike, yet car drivers who would have a similar behaviour
    would generally be ticketed. These numbers also include mountain trail riders and BMX riders who
    typically have more chance for mishaps (especially when accounted per mile) than on-road cyclists.

    Yeah, but the numbers for motorists include the drunkards, the novices, the irresponsible, etc. as
    well. Just as you can reduce the danger to yourself by riding on the road, in the right direction,
    and obeying the rules of the road, so too can motorists get out of the "danger zone" by, mainly, not
    being drunk, not driving at irresponsible speeds, and maintaining following distances.

    BMX and MTB riders are nonexistent in accident figures, because these figures are generally taken
    from MVA reports. Even if you run into another rider head-on on your favourite dirt trail, chances
    are neither of you will file an accident report; at worst you'll both need medical attention, and
    will end up in the hospital's files as a pair of injuries due to outdoor recreation.

    Quoted message said:

    johnforester.comjohnforester.com and kenkifer.comkenkifer.com have good explanations on the problem.

    I didn't really find that, but this report seems to give some good numbers on bike accidents
    and danger:

    bikexprt.comhelsinki.htm

    Quoted message said:

    Just for comparison, what would be your chance of fatality if you were *driving* your car while
    drunk, asleep, talking on the phone, shaving your face and eating at the same time? It seems that
    quite a few cyclists have equivalently-irresponsable behaviours.

    Except that quite a few motorists also drive while drunk, asleep, talking on the phone, shaving,
    eating, or in one memorable case I observed, practicing the trumpet.

    Absent figures on the relative numbers of "bad" drivers and "bad" cyclists, we really can't say how
    safe the "good" cyclists are, and whether the "good" drivers are still safer. My hunch is that car
    driving is basically safer per km traveled by any measure. It may be safer than driving per hour of
    exposure, but when you're talking about bicycles and cars as means of transportation rather than
    recreation, you usually care about getting to destinations that stay a fixed distance from you,
    regardless of how long it takes to get there.

    The report I cited above does indicate you can dramatically reduce your risk exposure by being a
    "vehicular" cyclist rather than using sidewalks and the dreaded separated bike paths.

    Returning to the original poster's question, is cycling dangerous? Well, life is dangerous. Cycling
    fatalities are rare: most bike commuters die in bed at a very old age of something like dementia or
    cancer, since regular riding is a great way to banish the spectre of heart disease. I am the king of
    risk-reward analyses, since I used to ride a motorcycle, and while there is much that a safe
    motorcyclist can do to separate themselves from the dangers that plague most motorcyclists, it is
    still about the most hazardous vehicular activity around, far more so than cycling or walking.

    Think about it this way: you'll see terrific injuries in soccer, old-boy rugby clubs probably
    average about 15 chronic back injuries per team, and people die climbing mountains, swimming, and
    even training for football all the time. At some point avoiding the hazards of life gets you stuck
    inside watching TV and working out on a LifeCycle, because all outdoor activities are hazardous, and
    only venturing into the bathroom and kitchen in the rarest of circumstances, since that's where most
    in-home accidents happen. And oh yeah, take public transit everywhere because it's safer than
    driving yourself.

    But at some point here, I suspect my vision of a safety-obsessed agoraphobe has repulsed you by the
    very deadness of its lifestyle. The trick is to be aware of the risks you take in life, be aware of
    sensible steps you can take to mitigate those risks, and then take the risk anyways because you want
    to enjoy your life. Let your wife ride the bike. If you're really concerned, get a tandem so you can
    ride happily together and die in each other's arms. Did I just say that?

    Got badly scratched up picking blackberries this week,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  11. Ryan Cousineau said:

    whether the "good" drivers are still safer. My hunch is that car driving is basically safer per km
    traveled by any measure.

    Net effect on life expectancy?

    Quoted message said:

    It may be safer than driving per hour of exposure, but when you're talking about bicycles and cars
    as means of transportation rather than recreation, you usually care about getting to destinations
    that stay a fixed distance from you, regardless of how long it takes to get there.

    Mind you, in London that generally means fewer hours as well. :-)
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

  12. In article <[email hidden]>, David Damerell

    Quoted message said:
    Ryan Cousineau said:

    whether the "good" drivers are still safer. My hunch is that car driving is basically safer per
    km traveled by any measure.

    Net effect on life expectancy?

    Trickier, but you could always ride a stationary bike in front of the telly (or while reading Usenet
    🙂. It's not a life I would choose (I know, because I ride to work).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It may be safer than driving per hour of exposure, but when you're talking about bicycles and
    cars as means of transportation rather than recreation, you usually care about getting to
    destinations that stay a fixed distance from you, regardless of how long it takes to get there.

    Mind you, in London that generally means fewer hours as well. :-)

    All the better. Many short commutes in urban areas are similar.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  13. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Qui Si Parla Ca
    Weezer-<< Give your bug a year....you will get to know your mechanic very well! Rice burners all the
    way!!!! >><BR><BR>

    My Beetle is 3.5 years old...only had a burnt out headlight...I love that car and would never look
    at a Hotoynisaru....

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

    Then you my friend, are one of the lucky ones!

  14. Ryan Cousineau said:
    David Damerell said:
    Ryan Cousineau said:

    whether the "good" drivers are still safer. My hunch is that car driving is basically safer per
    km traveled by any measure.


    Net effect on life expectancy?


    Trickier, but you could always ride a stationary bike in front of the telly (or while reading
    Usenet 🙂.

    Well, yeah, but clearly it's not meaningful to assess the health benefits of cycling by looking only
    at the tiny proportion of people who are willing to take equivalent amounts of exercise (and that's
    a _lot_ - 30 minutes seems a reasonably short commute, but that's 5 hours of gym time a week [1]).

    I realise I'm preaching to the choir here, since we both ride to work anyway - but it's an easy
    choice for me at least, since I don't drive.

    [1] And if you don't enjoy your job, the hours you work to pay for the car and the gym are pretty
    well wasted. :-)
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

  15. Taking an effective cycling course of some sort is a great suggestion and I recommend it. I took a
    1-1/2 day Road I course earlier this year that was written by the League of American Bicyclists. As
    a nascent 52-year old fart, I thought there was not much more to learn about cycling techniques. I
    was wrong.

    r.b.

    [email hidden] (Rick Warner) wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    As a veteran of the bumper car wars, having had my shares of run-ins with cars (two so far this
    year) I can say that first and foremost the best thing for your wife, or anyone riding on the
    roads, is to learn how to deal with cars as an equal. Some have advocated the Effective Cycling
    courses. That is one way, but through whatever venue it is important to learn some basic
    skills....

  16. In article <[email hidden]>, David Damerell

    Quoted message said:
    Ryan Cousineau said:
    David Damerell said:

    Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >whether the "good" drivers are still safer. My hunch is that car driving is basically safer per
    >km traveled by any measure.
    Net effect on life expectancy?


    Trickier, but you could always ride a stationary bike in front of the telly (or while reading
    Usenet 🙂.

    Well, yeah, but clearly it's not meaningful to assess the health benefits of cycling by looking
    only at the tiny proportion of people who are willing to take equivalent amounts of exercise (and
    that's a _lot_ - 30 minutes seems a reasonably short commute, but that's 5 hours of gym time a
    week [1]).

    And that's what I love about commuting. If I didn't commute, getting a reasonable amount of
    exercise, never mind training me up to my current Cat 5 mediocrity, is something I wouldn't do. I
    know, because I spent about five years doing no regular exercise (but I'm a fidgety guy:
    news-star.comhea weight.shtml).

    I find that commuting provides a key motivation: you have to get up every day and go commute,
    because otherwise you don't make it to work. That means you have to start exercising at a set time,
    and you have to go at least a set distance, and it's easy to get motivated. The extrinsic motivation
    for this exercise isn't something nebulous like "I'll be a pound lighter next week" or "next season
    this will help me win," it's "I have to be at the office by 7:45". Really simple.

    But the best part about commuting by bike is the free time. Commuting by transit or car is
    effectively dead time: unless you're a great fan of morning radio or books-on-tape, it's an
    unmitigated chore. But bike commuting has a double-effect, and allows you to not exercise (or not as
    much) during your dedicated leisure time.

    Quoted message said:

    I realise I'm preaching to the choir here, since we both ride to work anyway - but it's an easy
    choice for me at least, since I don't drive.

    Well, that would clarify the mind on the matter 🙂.

    Quoted message said:

    [1] And if you don't enjoy your job, the hours you work to pay for the car and the gym are pretty
    well wasted. :-)

    I hate to say it, but bikes aren't free. Of course, cars are less free yet, but then, I have two
    (three? Four? Don't tell my wife) bikes and a car too. No gym membership though.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  17. Ryan Cousineau said:
    David Damerell said:

    Well, yeah, but clearly it's not meaningful to assess the health benefits of cycling by looking
    only at the tiny proportion of people who are willing to take equivalent amounts of exercise (and
    that's a _lot_ - 30 minutes seems a reasonably short commute, but that's 5 hours of gym time a
    week [1]).


    That means you have to start exercising at a set time, and you have to go at least a set distance,
    and it's easy to get motivated. The extrinsic motivation for this exercise isn't something nebulous
    like "I'll be a pound lighter next week" or "next season this will help me win," it's "I have to be
    at the office by 7:45". Really simple.

    Not to mention that if you ride faster, you can spend longer in bed in the mornings, which is
    certainly a strong motivation for me!

    Plus you have to carry a bunch of junk with you - I have about 1 1/2 panniers full most of the time
    - which makes the hills a little more work.
    :-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [1] And if you don't enjoy your job, the hours you work to pay for the car and the gym are pretty
    well wasted. :-)


    I hate to say it, but bikes aren't free.

    Not as such, but I see second-hand Galaxies in the back of Cycletouring going for less than the net
    cost to my co-worker of someone driving into his supposedly insured car when he wasn't even in it.
    Any time I'm upset about the cost of bicycle parts, I ask my motorist friends about their costs, and
    then I feel all warm and fuzzy.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

  18. "David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Not as such, but I see second-hand Galaxies in the back of Cycletouring going for less than the
    net cost to my co-worker of someone driving into his supposedly insured car when he wasn't even in
    it. Any time I'm upset about the cost of bicycle parts, I ask my motorist friends about their
    costs, and then I feel all warm and fuzzy.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

    But the cost of someone running into your car (even if you are in it) is far less than the cost of
    someone running into your bike when you are on it. I could understand riding to work if you have
    proper cycle lanes and some form of protection from the idiots behind the wheel. Unfortunately you
    are at the mercy of the vehicle with the largest mass. If two cyclists collide they will probably
    walk away with words for each other. When a cyclist and a Mac truck collide, the cyclist leaves in
    a body bag.

  19. mjm said:

    "David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Not as such, but I see second-hand Galaxies in the back of Cycletouring going for less than the
    net cost to my co-worker of someone driving into his supposedly insured car when he wasn't even in
    it. Any time I'm upset about the cost of bicycle parts, I ask my motorist friends about their
    costs, and then I feel all warm and fuzzy.


    But the cost of someone running into your car (even if you are in it) is far less than the cost of
    someone running into your bike when you are on it.

    Perhaps you missed all the articles where we pointed out that cycling increases life expectancy?
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

  20. "David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [1] And if you don't enjoy your job, the hours you work to pay for the


    car

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and the gym are pretty well wasted. :-)


    I hate to say it, but bikes aren't free.

    Not as such, but I see second-hand Galaxies in the back of Cycletouring going for less than the
    net cost to my co-worker of someone driving into his supposedly insured car when he wasn't even in
    it. Any time I'm upset about the cost of bicycle parts, I ask my motorist friends about their
    costs, and then I feel all warm and fuzzy.

    I'm prepping to commute to school this fall. The cost of a decent used bike, plus the odds and ends
    that I need to outfit it for commuting (lights, lock, fenders, rack, etc), doesn't amount to even 4
    months worth of bus passes. It doesn't amount to even 3 months parking at the cheapest of carparks
    (not mentioning the cost of gas, etc). While a car would be faster, door to door, cycling is faster
    than busing as I live 0.5 miles from the bus stop. The people who think I'm nuts haven't thought
    through the issue.

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