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The LOST Dark Art of Descending... : (

Started by Jeff Potter · · Last activity · 15 posts · 847 views

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Cycling Equipment
Published
28 August 2003
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30 August 2003
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Jeff Potter
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  1. Some possibly helpful background: I just got back from a monthlong roadtrip a few days ago, with the
    fams, tent and cooler. We went from MI

    Quoted message said:

    NoCal > SoCal > MI. Good fun.

    Anyway... We stopped by Boulder, CO, for a day on the way out. It's been a few years since I was
    there. Man, that is one town FULL of AMENITIES of a civic aspect. What a great new library they
    have! The crystal cathedral, eh?

    So I tried to ride my bike an hour a day on this trip. In Boulder I went and did my old Flagstaff
    ride, after a great breakfast on the porch of the Chatauqua park lodge-thingy. I lived in Boulder
    '86-88, but it's been the FLATLANDS for me for the past 10 years. Darn if I didn't realize that I
    had the wrong gear on my bike when it finally came to that ride. I did this ride 3 years ago and had
    a way good time at it. This time I could hardly turn the pedals. I had a 42x24 and I think I had a
    26 or 28 on there last time. Rats! Well, I did make it to the very top by the mailboxes. I had to
    tack, though. What misery! A wrong gear is HELL! Just misery.

    I went and met Pete at Vecchio's but he didn't have anything to allieve my pain. He did rant against
    all bikes except road bikes ("I hate mountain bikes, tandems and touring bikes. Oh, and recumbents.
    Yeah and work bikes, too."😉 He has a great high-end roadbike shop, though! Lots of great vintage
    bikes on the walls. No vintage parts, though.

    A few days later I was in the SF Bay area and the great guys at Rivendell filed a 28t cog for me to
    fit my '82-era Dura Ace freehub. After that every climb was a breeze, basically. --Including the
    subsequent Hollywood Hills. Night and day difference.

    ANYWAY! I got to the top of Flagstaff. What, is that about a 8 mile climb all told? About a dozen
    switchbacks. It's a steepy. If you're ever in Boulder, be sure to do it. And eat at the Flagstaff
    House if you can. It looks like it would be worth it. What a view of the city.

    SO! After I got to the top, in a state of near heat stroke and wretchedness, I quickly recovered and
    turned around and went on back down. I used to be able to go down this mountain and use the brakes
    just a couple times.

    This time I was a disaster! I have a half tube of glue on each CX-clad wheel but I was a bit nervous
    about em anyway. I found that I could hardly brake enough to make it around the corners. I'd try to
    brake before the turns, but they were so steep that didn't work. I had to brake hard thru them as
    well. I was riding a fine and very lame line between going off the road and skidding. I had to brake
    most of the way. So after just a couple miles into it my rims were WAY hot. I ended up stopping 2 or
    3 times in a lame attempt to let them cool a bit. I poured my last water on them. The tires were
    definitely getting mobile on the rims. Man, my descending just SUCKED. I was just about doing
    nose-endo's on some of those corners. It was just ridiculous. Worst ever. Oh well, I suppose if I
    had read Jobst's FAQ before this trip and reminded myself how descending works things might've gone
    better. But I suppose to be good in the hills one really should just spend some time in them. I
    suppose a few more times out on the steep roads would've showed me how to do it all over again.
    Going on a ride with some locals might help, too.

    Heck, I remember when I was pretty good at Flagstaff, I went up with a local nonracer guy. He just
    blew me away going down. I only braked some, but he hardly braked at all. Crazy. I don't know how
    they do it.

    It's THE DARK ART. And for me it's now LOST.

    --

    Jeff Potter
    ****
    *Out Your Backdoor * outyourbackdoor.comoutyourbackdoor.com for modern folkways and culture revival...
    ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...new books featuring: XC ski
    culture, a Gulf Coast thriller folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up! ...original
    downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums!
    HOLY SMOKES!

  2. "Jeff Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This time I was a disaster! I have a half tube of glue on each CX-clad wheel but I was a bit
    nervous about em anyway. I found that I could hardly brake enough to make it around the corners.
    I'd try to brake before the turns, but they were so steep that didn't work. I had to brake hard
    thru them as well. I was riding a fine and very lame line between going off the road and skidding.
    I had to brake most of the way. So after just a couple miles into it my rims were WAY hot. I ended
    up stopping 2 or 3 times in a lame attempt to let them cool a bit. I poured my last water on them.
    The tires were definitely getting mobile on the rims. Man, my descending just SUCKED. I was just
    about doing nose-endo's on some of those corners. It was just ridiculous. Worst ever. Oh well, I
    suppose if I had read Jobst's FAQ before this trip and reminded myself how descending works things
    might've gone better. But I suppose to be good in the hills one really should just spend some time
    in them. I suppose a few more times out on the steep roads would've showed me how to do it all
    over again. Going on a ride with some locals might help, too.

    Fear is the mind killer. I find I'm way slower at descents for a few months after a prang, and then
    my speed slowly ramps up until next time I have a decent scare.

    The main issue here is that you didn't have faith in your gear. One technique I find helps a lot is
    to move around on the bike. As you brake into a corner, shift your weight way back off the saddle as
    far as you can go, and only brake a bare minimum. Air resistance will hold your top speed to 70 or
    80 km/h anyway, and that won't heat your rims at all.

    Regards,

    Suzy

  3. A Bene Gesserit witch said:

    Fear is the mind killer. I find I'm way slower at descents for a few months after a prang, and
    then my speed slowly ramps up until next time I have a decent scare.

    This is certainly true. I found that braking technique also makes a difference.

    Through most of the 1980s, I was a very enthusiastic mountain biker, and got in the habit of using
    my rear brake a lot (which is often quite appropriate in off-road conditions.) When I moved to
    France in 1988, I got back into road riding, but I found that I was a much more timid descender than
    I had been back in the '60s and '70s. At first I attributed this to age, and, thinking back, I
    remembered how fast I had been downhill in my pre-mtb period, often riding a fixed gear with only a
    front brake.

    There was this one descent I used to ride a lot, La Route des Sept Tournants (the road of seven
    turns) which was a beautifully paved descent with wide sweeping turns, but I always felt nervous,
    keeping my speed down with the rear brake. I shuddered at the idea of how I used to ride, relying on
    the front brake, but just as an experiment, one day I tried riding it using the front brake only to
    control my speed...and the difference was amazing! I was no longer feeling that I was on the edge of
    sliding out, and was able to descend quite a lot faster.

    It was this experience that caused me to rethink the conventional wisdom of braking, and to become
    aware of the ideas I've written about at sheldonbrown.combrakturn.html.

    Sheldon "Herbert Fan" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, | and breeds reptiles of the mind.
    | --William Blake |
    +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.com sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.com

  4. "Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    . Air resistance will hold your top speed to 70 or 80 km/h anyway, and that won't heat your rims
    at all.


    Suzy coming down Mt Locke out here in West TX, its easily 47mph if your nose is on the stem; but,
    in an upright position its tough to get over 28mph. The old body is one heck of an air brake.

    Tom

    -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- newsfeeds.comnewsfeeds.com - The #1
    Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

  5. "Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    One technique I find helps a lot is to move around on the bike. As you


    brake

    Quoted message said:

    into a corner, shift your weight way back off the saddle as far as you can


    go

    Why?

  6. Peter, shame on you, you didn't help to allieve this poor guy's pain? Thought you would at least
    lend him that 16 pound bike to get up those hills. No more trash taking about Rivendell! The boys
    there are alright. I suppose the climbs in Boulder are different than the Hollywood Hills. -tom

    "Jeff Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway... We stopped by Boulder, CO, for a day on the way out. It's been a few years since I was
    there. Man, that is one town FULL of AMENITIES of a civic aspect. What a great new library they
    have! The crystal cathedral, eh?

    So I tried to ride my bike an hour a day on this trip. In Boulder I went and did my old Flagstaff
    ride, after a great breakfast on the porch of the Chatauqua park lodge-thingy. I lived in Boulder
    '86-88, but it's been the FLATLANDS for me for the past 10 years. Darn if I didn't realize that I
    had the wrong gear on my bike when it finally came to that ride. I did this ride 3 years ago and
    had a way good time at it. This time I could hardly turn the pedals. I had a 42x24 and I think I
    had a 26 or 28 on there last time. Rats! Well, I did make it to the very top by the mailboxes. I
    had to tack, though. What misery! A wrong gear is HELL! Just misery.

    I went and met Pete at Vecchio's but he didn't have anything to allieve my pain. He did rant
    against all bikes except road bikes ("I hate mountain bikes, tandems and touring bikes. Oh, and
    recumbents. Yeah and work bikes, too."😉 He has a great high-end roadbike shop, though! Lots of
    great vintage bikes on the walls. No vintage parts, though.

    A few days later I was in the SF Bay area and the great guys at Rivendell filed a 28t cog for me
    to fit my '82-era Dura Ace freehub. After that every climb was a breeze, basically. --Including
    the subsequent Hollywood Hills. Night and day difference.

  7. Suzy Jackson said:

    Fear is the mind killer.

    Right. But it also seemed like the facts of my situation were darn scary too! : )

    Quoted message said:

    I find I'm way slower at descents for a few months after a prang, and then my speed slowly ramps
    up until next time I have a decent scare.

    I'm pretty sure that simple experience would help a TON. I haven't crashed on a descent yet so that
    hasn't been a factor for me. I do get faster with practice, though. It was basically hilarious
    though how BAD I was this time.

    Quoted message said:

    [ ] Air resistance will hold your top speed to 70 or 80 km/h anyway, and that won't heat your
    rims at all.

    Right. But the fact of this for me was even with airbraking on the straights I was going WAY too
    fast to make any of the turns with full braking, so I had to brake on the straights. This seems
    nutty to me coz I never had to in the old days but the facts forced me to this time. I was leaning,
    etc., but still pointing STRAIGHT OFF THE ROAD OVER THE CLIFF.

    I'd think airbraking on Flagstaff would equal about 38-40mph. But I didn't have a speedo. It's a
    popular hill: anyone here know?

    --

    Jeff Potter
    ****
    *Out Your Backdoor * outyourbackdoor.comoutyourbackdoor.com for modern folkways and culture revival...
    ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...new books featuring: XC ski
    culture, a Gulf Coast thriller folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up! ...original
    downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums!
    HOLY SMOKES!

  8. Peter Cole said:

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    One technique I find helps a lot is to move around on the bike. As you


    brake

    Quoted message said:

    into a corner, shift your weight way back off the saddle as far as you can


    go

    Why?

    Maybe to avoid the 'nose endo' problem that I had?

    --

    Jeff Potter
    ****
    *Out Your Backdoor * outyourbackdoor.comoutyourbackdoor.com for modern folkways and culture revival...
    ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...new books featuring: XC ski
    culture, a Gulf Coast thriller folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up! ...original
    downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums!
    HOLY SMOKES!

  9. "Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Jeff Potter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Fear is the mind killer. I find I'm way slower at descents for a few months after a prang, and
    then my speed slowly ramps up until next time I have a decent scare.

    The main issue here is that you didn't have faith in your gear. One technique I find helps a lot
    is to move around on the bike. As you brake into a corner, shift your weight way back off the
    saddle as far as you can go, and only brake a bare minimum. Air resistance will hold your top
    speed to 70 or 80 km/h anyway, and that won't heat your rims at all.

    Or, he did not have faith/confidence in himself. Or both. I am generally a fearless descender. Pass
    folks doing 50+ MPH on curving, narrow roads. Then last spring I had a Beloki - rear tire gave as I
    entered a turn, hit the road hard. Did not have the broken bones of Joseba, but had problems walking
    for a couple of weeks, riding for a few weeks. Coming back I was much less confident, braked too
    much, descended much more slowly. Was just getting back into the groove, regaining confidence, when
    I got a new (custom) bike and the brakes sucked. Had no confidence in the brakes, so again I was
    descending slowly, braking too much, yada yada. Just replaced those brakes with a nice set of (old)
    XTR cantis. Regaining confidence in equipment, picking up speed once again.

    Point is, you need confidence in the gear *and* yourself. Losing faith in either engenders fear, bad
    technique, etc. Once you lose confidence, it becomes tough to regain, esp. if you need to
    re-establish faith in your own abilities and the equipment simultaneously. At that point, nothing to
    do but start slowly, testing yourself and the equipment on descents of increasing difficulty.

    - rick

  10. "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P7I3b.294611$Ho3.42177@sccrnsc03...

    Quoted message said:

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    One technique I find helps a lot is to move around on the bike. As you


    brake

    Quoted message said:

    into a corner, shift your weight way back off the saddle as far as you


    can

    Quoted message said:

    go

    Why?

    Lets you pull up quicker, as there's more weight over the back wheel, so the back wheel isn't going
    to come up.

    When I descend, I try not to brake unless I _have_ to, and then only a short, sharp decelleration
    before a nasty bend. That serves two purposes: Firstly, it keeps your overall speed up, but more
    importantly, it reduces the heating effect on your rims.

    Those who have blowouts from getting their rims too hot are the same people who ride the brakes all
    the way down. The best brake is simple air resistance.

    Regards,

    Suzy

  11. Suzy Jackson said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    One technique I find helps a lot is to move around on the bike. As you brake into a corner,
    shift your weight way back off the saddle as far as you can go.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why?

    Quoted message said:

    Lets you pull up quicker, as there's more weight over the back wheel, so the back wheel isn't
    going to come up.

    If you go "as far as you can go" you'll be in a poor position to absorb road shocks and to lean into
    the corner when you get there. People who do these gymnastics often substitute that for leaning
    deeply into a corner because that is what they are unsure of.

    Quoted message said:

    When I descend, I try not to brake unless I _have_ to, and then only a short, sharp decelleration
    before a nasty bend. That serves two purposes: Firstly, it keeps your overall speed up, but more
    importantly, it reduces the heating effect on your rims.

    There is a limit to cornering speed and you are not going to change that by not braking. Overall
    speed is maintained by braking late approaching curves and taking the apex at maximum lean angle.
    Assessing that angle is the art of descending. By the time a rider gets good at that, braking is no
    longer a subject.

    Quoted message said:

    Those who have blowouts from getting their rims too hot are the same people who ride the brakes
    all the way down. The best brake is simple air resistance.

    I see you don't descend steep roads. The amount of braking is given by road alignment and gradient.
    If the road is curvy and steep, you'll be on the brakes most of the time. Continuous 20% grade and
    curves is enough to give most tires a big bang. Tubulars just melt off and shear the valve stem.

    draco.acs.uci.edu9.15.html tinyurl.coma8zs

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

  12. [email hidden] (Rick Warner) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...


    [ ]

    Quoted message said:

    Or, he did not have faith/confidence in himself. Or both.

    I'm also saying it's a matter of technique and knowledge. I wasn't worried about either myself or
    the bike really. I just could not see how it could be done. I was leaning hard and turning yet still
    going off the road, so I braked. If I braked hard enough to keep me on the road it felt like I was
    going to skid out or do a nose-endo. It was nuts. It felt like neither lean/turn nor brake could
    solve the problem. Yet I know I used to fairly bomb that hill. So I'm sure that experience brings
    confidence but it also brings knowledge and skill. It was just a skill that I had totally lost and
    could not find. So I heated my rims to the point where the tires got squirrelly then added equipment
    worry to my lack of skill. What fun! --JP

  13. I said:
    Quoted message said:

    A Bene Gesserit witch wrote:

    Quoth Chris Zacho The Wheelman

    Quoted message said:

    Hey. Sheldon! Just who do you think you are calling Suzy a witch???!! ;-3)

    I was merely acknowledging her literary reference to Frank Herbert's _Dune_ "n"-ology.

    That was not a negative comment, as you'd learn if you were to read these wonderful novels.

    Sheldon "Arrakis" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------+
    | Our country is the world - our countrymen are mankind | --William Lloyd Garrison |
    +---------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.com sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.com

  14. "Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]... [email hidden] (Sheldon

    Brown) said:

    A Bene Gesserit witch wrote:

    Hey. Sheldon! Just who do you think you are calling Suzy a witch???!! ;-3)

    Hey, I'm not complaining. The Bene Gesserit rock 🙂

  15. "Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    I said:
    Quoted message said:

    A Bene Gesserit witch wrote:

    Quoth Chris Zacho The Wheelman

    Quoted message said:

    Hey. Sheldon! Just who do you think you are calling Suzy a witch???!! ;-3)

    I was merely acknowledging her literary reference to Frank Herbert's _Dune_ "n"-ology.

    That was not a negative comment, as you'd learn if you were to read these wonderful novels.

    Don't think so! The only time they're called that is by their detractors. Try to get that foot out
    of the mouth again...

    Mike

    Quoted message said:


    Sheldon "Arrakis" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------+
    | Our country is the world - our countrymen are mankind | --William Lloyd Garrison |
    +---------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.com sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.com

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