Why so few spokes?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The supporting bicycle shop's trailer did not carry 36 spoke rims
because no one rides them so they would have no hope of selling them.
Bicycle shops who support rides tend to carry what the riders are
using. A supporting bicycle shop isn't very supporting if it does not
have the parts the riders need. Seems kind of logical, doesn't it.

Quoted message said:

I run 36 spokes on most bikes. I prefer having things not break,
partly because I almost never have a SAG wagon following me.

You've never been on a ride that had a bicycle shop supporting it? Why
don't you participate in organized rides? Every organized ride I've
ever been on, RAGBRAI, BAK, TRIRI, CNC, BRAT, CANDISC, HHH, Pedal
Peaks, etc. has always had a supporting bicycle shop along.

Some people make their own decisions about where, when, and what to ride.

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength?

Quoted message said:

Doug.

More profit for the wheel manufacturer. Sell the stupid customer
stupid-light wheels, get stupid repeat business, laugh all the way to
the stupid bank.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ah well. I've driven sag many, many times (the last about three months
ago) and I've never carried spare rims at all. It would seem odd to
replace a rim in the middle of a ride, anyway.

You don't seem to understand very well. Driving a sag vehicle is not
the same as being the bicycle shop that provides repairs and support on
organized rides. Organized rides are ones that hundreds to thousands
of people participate in. Extending from one day to one week usually.
The event sponsor organizes the overnight stops, route, food, etc. And
insurance.

Sorry to disillusion you, but I understand quite well. I (with my
wife's help) ran a good-sized century ride for about seven years, for
which we had up to 650 riders and won a national award. I arranged for
all the items you listed (and more), and I've driven sag many times for
that and for at least two other similar events

Quoted message said:

The event organizer also arranges for a bicycle shop to go
along and provide nightly repair facitlities. And usually the bike
shop also drives along the course during the day to repair bicycles. A
world apart from driving a sag as you claim.

Your "usually" varies tremendously, based on the ride. I've certainly
done many invitational rides where there was no bike shop sag, only
club volunteers. And even in the case of a multi-day ride on which a
rider ruins a rim, is it really more typical for the shop owner to
replace just the rim, or supply a replacement wheel? I suspect the
latter.

I may be wrong, of course. I've got this weird habit of not crashing,
therefore not breaking wheels. Yes, I've ridden with a cyclist who ran
out of road and potato-chipped a rim, but even then, I just popped it
back straight for him, and we (and the others on that ride) just rolled
on after about ten minutes. He never did need to replace that rim.

Quoted message said:

I encourage you to get out and ride with other bicyclists. Take part
in rides near your place of residence. Many rides are quite enjoyable.

Um... yes, good idea. Of course, I've been an active member of our
local club for 25 years. I've been president, vice-president, trustee,
century organizer, ride captain, etc. I've been safety chairman for
something like seven years now. I've led hundreds of rides for the
club, and probably ridden thousands of club rides...

Quoted message said:

And if someone crashes into you and breaks your bike, the supporting
bike shop may be able to patch you up to continue the ride.

.... and in all that time, I've managed to avoid having anyone crash
into me. I've never needed a "supporting bike shop."

One trick that helps is this: Stay away from the lousy riders. Ride
ahead of them, if possible, but in any case, keep your distance and
keep an eye on them.

One can usually spot them by their squirrely bike handling. But
perhaps an early warning is their belief that crashes are inevitable.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is like the spoilers on the backs of cars that emulate but do not
function as those on 150mph racing cars, will improve commute times as
well as road holding at speeds one might attain on a deserted public
road.

I always enjoy seeing spoilers on front wheel drive cars.

Quoted message said:

Even 32 spoke wheels don't do well with one spoke failure but then
they are 4/36th less air drag (of the spokes) than a 36-spoke wheel.

I've broken spokes on 32 spoke Open Pro/Reflex wheels and they do OK.
A fairly quick and simple job with a spoke wrench on the side of the
road allows you to continue the ride, even with wonderful to squeeze
dual pivot brakes. 36 would probably be better. But I also broke an
Open Pro rim in a crash at the end of a two day ride and it was very
simple to just buy a 32 spoke Open Pro rim from the supporting bicycle
shop's trailer.

So, you bought a 32H OP rim. Then what? Someone built you a wheel _in
the field_ during the ride?

I gotta bridge for sale, reasonably priced.. Interested?

It is highly unlikely the trailer had 36 spoke rims.

Quoted message said:

So in this case, and probably most others, having 32 spoke wheels
allowed me to continue the ride while having a 36 spoke wheel would
have meant riding in a car on the second day. On a week long ride a
person broke a Ksyrium spoke. The supporting bike shop had a
replacement spoke for the Ksyrium and was able to fix the wheel and get
the person back on the road the next day. Ksyrium wheels have become
so common that their replacement parts are common. Whereas the old
time 36 spoke rims may be much harder to find when you need one now.

Sandy said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm. You broke both spokes and a rim on 32 spoke wheels, but they're
better than 36 because the SAG had 32 spoke rims?

Why stop there ? Why not 40 or 48 ? What's so magic about 36 ?
Actually, nothing.

There's much less choice of 40 and 48. 36h rims and hubs are plentiful:
look at all the major models from Mavic, Shimano and Campagnolo for a
start. 36-spoke rear wheels certainly make more sense than 32 for
non-racing.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength? I have a very old bike that has 40 spokes on
the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many bikes have just 32
spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels now have only 20
spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs during construction
or just a way of reducing weight at the expense of strength?

Quoted message said:

John Thompson said:

A bit of each, and advances in metallurgy and wheel construction have made
modern low-spoke-count wheels at least as strong as older wheels with more
spokes.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Balderdash...A 16 spoke wheel regardless of 'advances in metallurgy and
wheel construction' has not become as relaible as a similar weight,
well built 32 or 36 spoke wheel.
Modern rims, like Velocity and some Mavic have the same 'metallurgy' as
these 16 spoke 'wonders', and the buoid quality from a wheel factory is
typically awful....
'Older wheels', we are not comparing wheels from that 1960 Puegeot, ya
know. Rims and spokes and hubs are still available and some of us still
build wheels.

We also build a good number of 36 spoke wheels for riders
who have just had enough suffering and trouble from 'cute'
low spoke count wonders. If you think they are 'arty', hang
'em on your wall and get some durable wheels to ride.

Not that _everyone_ needs 36h or 48h wheels. But the guys
who break things tend to be big and risk-averse. Customers
express surprise that we stock such 'oddities' as 36h hubs
and rims "I looked in all the catalogs and no one makes them" .
News flash: Campagnolo, Shimano, Phil, nearly every hub and
rim vendor offer lots of drills appropriate to the rider and
use.

We do build for 100lb riders too, where 24-28 wheels with
light rims are reasonable.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've broken spokes on 32 spoke Open Pro/Reflex wheels and they do OK.
A fairly quick and simple job with a spoke wrench on the side of the
road allows you to continue the ride, even with wonderful to squeeze
dual pivot brakes. 36 would probably be better. But I also broke an
Open Pro rim in a crash at the end of a two day ride and it was very
simple to just buy a 32 spoke Open Pro rim from the supporting
bicycle shop's trailer. It is highly unlikely the trailer had 36
spoke rims. So in this case, and probably most others, having 32
spoke wheels allowed me to continue the ride while having a 36 spoke
wheel would have meant riding in a car on the second day.

Hmm. You broke both spokes and a rim on 32 spoke wheels, but they're
better than 36 because the SAG had 32 spoke rims?

Why stop there ? Why not 40 or 48 ? What's so magic about 36 ?
Actually, nothing.

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity
curve. 32 spoke wheels are much less reliable than 36
spoke wheels, contrasted with how much less reliable a 36
spoke wheel is than a 40 spoke wheel, for the 80 kg rider.

Received wisdom ought to be respected enough to be
understood thoroughly before acting contrary to it. Folks
want to re-invent the wheel, I am not standing in their
way.

What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36
spoke wheel?

--
Michael Press

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Michael Press <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity
curve.

You found that study where ?

Quoted message said:

32 spoke wheels are much less reliable than 36
spoke wheels, contrasted with how much less reliable a 36
spoke wheel is than a 40 spoke wheel, for the 80 kg rider.

You found that study where ?

Quoted message said:

What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36
spoke wheel?

Or adding 4 ? I'm willing to believe this, if you show me the studied and
proven facts. Just don't think you can "jargon" your way through a serious
question.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

jim beam said:

the original reason for high spoke counts was that they had very poor
fatigue lives. reducing individual loads by increasing count helped
mitigate the problem. now, spoke wire quality is much improved,
therefore fatigue lives have increased significantly; ergo spoke count
can be reduced. real simple.

Only if you're willing to put up with the same old unreliability.
Materials have changed a little, fair enough, but personally I'd prefer
that to go to reliability rather than weight savings.

Jasper

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

Why stop there ? Why not 40 or 48 ? What's so magic about 36 ?
Actually, nothing.

Quoted message said:

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity curve. 32
spoke wheels are much less reliable than 36 spoke wheels, contrasted
with how much less reliable a 36 spoke wheel is than a 40 spoke
wheel, for the 80 kg rider.

Quoted message said:

Received wisdom ought to be respected enough to be understood
thoroughly before acting contrary to it. Folks want to re-invent the
wheel, I am not standing in their way.

Quoted message said:

What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36 spoke wheel?

For a wheel to carry the same load, average spoke tension must remain
the same, which means that individual spokes become tighter as their
number declines. Therefore, if one breaks, wheel misalignment is
proportionally greater and the ability to remain in service smaller.
Breaking one spoke in a 36-spoke wheel causes a minor misalignment.
Breaking a spoke in a <32-spoke wheel is usually terminal.

I suppose for many riders, boasting rights on aerodynamic qualities of
their wheels has greater importance than utility. At least reading
these pages that is the tenor of the majority of contributors.

Jobst Brandt

Sandy Leurre said:

Quoted message said:

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity curve.

Quoted message said:

You found that study where ?

My "study" is from years of working with wheels with 24..40 spokes and
this has been the case. Of course with today's no-clearance frames,
40-spokes may be the limit because there is less ability to ride even
a slightly out-of-true wheel.

I've seen no valid arguments for the majority of bicyclists to be
equipped with less than 36 spokes. Although Walter Mitty might
believe so, we are not all racing or riding at a level where the
number of spokes makes any difference in speed, non existent speeds
that are assumed to be the ideal for all bicyclists.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

I suppose for many riders, boasting rights on aerodynamic qualities of
their wheels has greater importance than utility. At least reading
these pages that is the tenor of the majority of contributors.

Even if one wanted the minute aerodynamic benefits, I'd think 36
elliptical spokes might do as well as 32 round ones.

I suspect, though, that we're seeing more evidence that people don't
understand the meaning of "negligible."

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sandy Leurre said:

Quoted message said:

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity curve.

Quoted message said:

You found that study where ?

My "study" is from years of working with wheels with 24..40 spokes and
this has been the case. Of course with today's no-clearance frames,
40-spokes may be the limit because there is less ability to ride even
a slightly out-of-true wheel.

I've seen no valid arguments for the majority of bicyclists to be
equipped with less than 36 spokes. Although Walter Mitty might
believe so, we are not all racing or riding at a level where the
number of spokes makes any difference in speed, non existent speeds
that are assumed to be the ideal for all bicyclists.

Jobst Brandt

I upgraded to Ergo and had to buy new wheels which are low spoke count because
they were readily available. I find that besides the never have to true the 36
spoke wheel advantage, I simply liked the way the 36 spoke wheels looked.

Neal

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Sandy Leurre said:

Quoted message said:

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity curve.

Quoted message said:

You found that study where ?

My "study" is from years of working with wheels with 24..40 spokes and
this has been the case. Of course with today's no-clearance frames,
40-spokes may be the limit because there is less ability to ride even
a slightly out-of-true wheel.

I've seen no valid arguments for the majority of bicyclists to be
equipped with less than 36 spokes. Although Walter Mitty might
believe so, we are not all racing or riding at a level where the
number of spokes makes any difference in speed, non existent speeds
that are assumed to be the ideal for all bicyclists.

Just 2 things, Mr Brandt. I did not ask _you_ the question, though I am
happy to read your reply. I reacted to the pretentious language used, and I
doubt deeply that the writer can justify his jargon with actual knowledge or
documented support. Let's let him address that.

Secondo : there is no magic number, not 32, or 36 or 40. You have repeated
often enough that a properly built wheel will a) wear out at the rim ; b)
meet a persuasively solid object and deform ; c) not need new spokes, if
built properly.

So, with 32,36, or 40 spokes, I doubt that a well built wheel will notice
the difference. Do you not agree ? Do spokes on well built wheels fail so
often, so as to prefer 36 holes ? Or will they more likely be re-used on
new rims from the a) or b) above. It seems that if the quantity of spokes
is essential (and only 36) to your premise about the longevity of a wheel,
then what is that magic combination ? Why would a 32 hole wheel not last as
long as a 36 hole one - perhaps where you were the builder of both ?

By the way, since I am now lazier at my age, and can afford to buy, not
build, my wheels, it matters little to me if elves do the job in a bike shop
or in a wheel factory, so long as they get it right. And I don't think it's
really all that economical to get custom built wheels, but the economics of
my region may be different from yours.
--
Sandy
--
C'est le contraire du vélo, la bicyclette.
Une silhouette profilée mauve fluo dévale
à soixante-dix à l'heure : c'est du vélo.
Deux lycéennes côte à côte traversent
un pont à Bruges : c'est de la bicyclette.
-Delerm, P.

PS : I hope the tire and frame testing articles were interesting.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36 spoke wheel?

For a wheel to carry the same load, average spoke tension must remain
the same, which means that individual spokes become tighter as their
number declines.

Surely you meant to type "total spoke tension must remain the same"?

Quoted message said:

Therefore, if one breaks, wheel misalignment is
proportionally greater and the ability to remain in service smaller.
Breaking one spoke in a 36-spoke wheel causes a minor misalignment.
Breaking a spoke in a <32-spoke wheel is usually terminal.

--
R.

<> Richard Brockie "Categorical statements
<> The tall blond one. always cause trouble."
<> [email hidden]

Richard Brockie said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36 spoke wheel?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For a wheel to carry the same load, average spoke tension must remain
the same, which means that individual spokes become tighter as their
number declines.

Quoted message said:

Surely you meant to type "total spoke tension must remain the same"?

Yes, that was what I meant to say. Words play tricks with too much
editing when the sense of a sentence gets reversed. Thanks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Therefore, if one breaks, wheel misalignment is proportionally
greater and the ability to remain in service smaller. Breaking one
spoke in a 36-spoke wheel causes a minor misalignment. Breaking a
spoke in a <32-spoke wheel is usually terminal.

Jobst Brandt

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Michael Press <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity
curve.

You found that study where ?

Quoted message said:

32 spoke wheels are much less reliable than 36
spoke wheels, contrasted with how much less reliable a 36
spoke wheel is than a 40 spoke wheel, for the 80 kg rider.

You found that study where ?

Quoted message said:

What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36
spoke wheel?

Or adding 4 ? I'm willing to believe this, if you show me the studied and
proven facts. Just don't think you can "jargon" your way through a serious
question.

I answered your question. Answer mine. Why remove 4 spokes
from the long-time normal 36 spoke wheel?

--
Michael Press

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Michael Press <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Michael Press <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity
curve.

You found that study where ?

Quoted message said:

32 spoke wheels are much less reliable than 36
spoke wheels, contrasted with how much less reliable a 36
spoke wheel is than a 40 spoke wheel, for the 80 kg rider.

You found that study where ?

Quoted message said:

What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36
spoke wheel?

Or adding 4 ? I'm willing to believe this, if you show me the
studied and proven facts. Just don't think you can "jargon" your
way through a serious question.

I answered your question.

If your prose had any credibility, it could have. It doesn't. It didn't.

Quoted message said:

Answer mine. Why remove 4 spokes
from the long-time normal 36 spoke wheel?

And that's because they are prettier and easier to find replacements for.
Much prettier. But that's personal, not technical. Too bad.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Michael Press <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Michael Press <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

> 36 spokes is at the knee of the reliability/complexity
> curve.

You found that study where ?

> 32 spoke wheels are much less reliable than 36
> spoke wheels, contrasted with how much less reliable a 36
> spoke wheel is than a 40 spoke wheel, for the 80 kg rider.

You found that study where ?

> What is so important about removing 4 spokes from a 36
> spoke wheel?

Or adding 4 ? I'm willing to believe this, if you show me the
studied and proven facts. Just don't think you can "jargon" your
way through a serious question.

I answered your question.

If your prose had any credibility, it could have. It doesn't. It didn't.

Argumentum ad hominem. You do not like my answer for
non-technical reasons, and supply no technical
alternative. You do not attempt to discover what I say.
This is a technical news group, and you act like it is
alt.in.your.face.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Answer mine. Why remove 4 spokes
from the long-time normal 36 spoke wheel?

And that's because they are prettier and easier to find replacements for.
Much prettier. But that's personal, not technical. Too bad.

OK. What is `too bad'?

--
Michael Press

Michael Press wrote on Saturday 31 December 2005 21:24:

Quoted message said:

Why remove 4 spokes
from the long-time normal 36 spoke wheel?

To leave room for the squirrels?
--
Regards
Alex
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