Help Me Survive (Maybe Enjoy?) My First Brevet

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

My arm is being twisted by some friends to join them in a couple of
brevets this spring and summer. It looks like there will be a 200K and
two 300Ks. I am currently a solo "B" pace cyclist and rode 4700 miles
last year. These rides were split between 25 mile "lunch" rides during
the week, Metrics on weekends, and a couple of centuries.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the equipment side of things. I
have a choice of a Cannondale T2000 touring bike or a Litespeed
Tuscany. The Cannondale has fenders, rear rack, and front handlebar
bag but is pretty heavy. The Litespeed is is lightweight but I'll add
a rear rack and trunk to carry supplies. If the weather is not
threatening I'll probably take the Litespeed.

My main question involves the other aspect of brevets and that is
riding strategy i.e. pace, hydration, nutrition, and rest. I have
always felt pretty tired after centuries so I am wondering what I have
to do to be able go farther and survive.

Can any of you offer and direct advice or point me to other web
sources which may have this kind of information? I have looked ar the
www.rusa.org site but didn't really see the kind of info I was looking
for. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Steve

Hi Steve,

The main difference between a long ride like a century and a really
long ride is nutrition. It is important to consume enough calories
under way so as not to deplete your reserves before you finish. Your
eating may have sufficed for 100 miles, but perhaps isn't sufficient
for 300km, and if you bonk you will be in a world of hurt. Try to
calculate your expected caloric expenditure and try to eat that much as
you ride. Hydration is important as well, but as long as you drink the
whole time you should be fine, unless you are in a desert or something.

Another thing I have paid attention to on 250km+ rides is to avoid the
burn at all costs. Going anaerobic uses up valuable glycogen stores
that you will need further down the road. And the 2-3 seconds you save
getting up some early short hill a wee bit faster are going to cost big
time later on. I am a poor climber, so for me this often means I forego
the benefits of riding with a group if I feel they are pushing it a bit
too much for me on the inclines. Even if it is just over short inclines
like overpasses, etc. If I need to burn to keep up, it costs me more
than I save drafting on the flat sections. So I let them go and I go my
own pace. Sort of the Tortoise and the Hare principle. I use a heart
rate monitor sometimes and on long rides I try to never exceed 75% of
my maximum.

Rest depends primarlily on your level fitness, how much you wish to
suffer, and wether you need to recover from starting out too fast, or
some other unplanned circumstance. I know plenty of people who have
ridden 540km only stopping 3 times for a total of 12 minutes. That is
of course quite extreme, but I think if you consume enough calories,
keep yourself hydrated, and don't over do it in the pace department,
rest shouldn't be an issue.

Have fun!

Joseph

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

My arm is being twisted by some friends to join them in a couple of
brevets this spring and summer. It looks like there will be a 200K and
two 300Ks. I am currently a solo "B" pace cyclist and rode 4700 miles
last year. These rides were split between 25 mile "lunch" rides during
the week, Metrics on weekends, and a couple of centuries.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the equipment side of things. I
have a choice of a Cannondale T2000 touring bike or a Litespeed
Tuscany. The Cannondale has fenders, rear rack, and front handlebar
bag but is pretty heavy. The Litespeed is is lightweight but I'll add
a rear rack and trunk to carry supplies. If the weather is not
threatening I'll probably take the Litespeed.

My main question involves the other aspect of brevets and that is
riding strategy i.e. pace, hydration, nutrition, and rest. I have
always felt pretty tired after centuries so I am wondering what I have
to do to be able go farther and survive.

Can any of you offer and direct advice or point me to other web
sources which may have this kind of information? I have looked ar the
www.rusa.org site but didn't really see the kind of info I was looking
for. Any other suggestions?

If you've done a century, a 200K is pretty much the same, lots of club
riders do just our local 200K every year. A 300K is a double century,
plus it involves some night riding, which makes it a very different
experience.

There is really only one big issue in long distance riding, and that's
pace. The decision for you, going out with friends, is whether to stick
with them or go it alone (or another group) if the pace gets too fast.
The decision can get complicated if you're not familiar with the route
or following cue sheets or aren't sure where you are on the route when
you decide to drop off a group. Every time I've gone out too fast or
stuck with a group going too fast (usually because I wasn't sure exactly
where I was), I regretted it.

In hot weather, it's hard not to get dehydrated, it's hard to drink
enough to keep up with sweat losses. Some degree of dehydration is to be
expected and is no big deal. You can judge the degree by clues such as
the color of urine or pinching the skin on the back of your hand and
seeing how long it takes to flatten. I have learned to use the fit of a
ring on my finger to get a rough idea.

Calories become increasingly important as the pace goes up. At a very
moderate pace, you can actually ride on fat reserves alone. I have
finished a 300K without eating -- it wasn't a particularly pleasant
experience, though. Part of brevet training is finding out what works
for you in the eating department. Some eat a variety of "normal" foods,
some stick to a liquid diet, some eat sparingly, some a lot. I like to
eat foods that I buy along the way rather than relying on provided foods
or packing my own. That becomes a matter of planning what's available
along the route and knowing what agrees with you -- a matter of trial &
error, unfortunately.

Besides managing your pace conservatively, the only other general advice
I'd offer is to fix any problems promptly, because things tend to get
worse over the hours and miles. Stop to loosen tight shoes, add or take
off clothing, apply sunscreen, drink, eat, stretch, etc. promptly,
delaying can turn little problems into big ones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you've done a century, a 200K is pretty much the same<<

Well, except that it's about 33% longer. Which is to say that a 75
miler is pretty much the same as a century ride.

You have time to ride 25 miles on your lunch?

Queso said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you've done a century, a 200K is pretty much the same<<

Well, except that it's about 33% longer.

Well, since you're quibbling, it's actually 24% longer.

Quoted message said:

Which is to say that a 75
miler is pretty much the same as a century ride.

Sure, if you can comfortably do 75 miles, you won't have difficulty with
a century.

Quoted message said:

You have time to ride 25 miles on your lunch?

Who's "you"?

Peter Cole said:

Queso said:

Quoted message said:

>If you've done a century, a 200K is pretty much the same<<

Well, except that it's about 33% longer.

Well, since you're quibbling, it's actually 24% longer.

Quoted message said:

Which is to say that a 75
miler is pretty much the same as a century ride.

Sure, if you can comfortably do 75 miles, you won't have difficulty with
a century.

Quoted message said:

You have time to ride 25 miles on your lunch?

Who's "you"?

But you see, that is just it. Most of these rides are more or less the
same, but at some point there is a critical threshold where things are
not the same. I think it is around 300km, at least for me.

During most rides, a rider uses more calories than they consume, even
when they stuff down a few candy bars, and sports drink. Up to a
certain distance this works fine, as the rider still has some reserves
at the end of the ride. So maybe after a 150km ride eating normally the
rider has reserves of 25% left and feels ok, and after a 200km ride the
rider has reserves of 10% left and still feels ok. The rider has eaten
a banana, and some bread every 50km on both rides and thinks this will
work for a longer distance too, but after say 300km of a 400km ride,
reserves go to zero, and everything goes pear shaped.

So in my opinion a 100km ride is much more similar to a 200km ride than
a 200km ride is to a 300km ride despite the smaller percantage
difference.

Joseph

In article <[email hidden]>,

() said:

Peter Cole said:

Queso said:

>>If you've done a century, a 200K is pretty much the same<<

Well, except that it's about 33% longer.

Well, since you're quibbling, it's actually 24% longer.

Quoted message said:

Which is to say that a 75
miler is pretty much the same as a century ride.

Sure, if you can comfortably do 75 miles, you won't have difficulty with
a century.

Quoted message said:

You have time to ride 25 miles on your lunch?

Who's "you"?

But you see, that is just it. Most of these rides are more or less the
same, but at some point there is a critical threshold where things are
not the same. I think it is around 300km, at least for me.

During most rides, a rider uses more calories than they consume, even
when they stuff down a few candy bars, and sports drink. Up to a
certain distance this works fine, as the rider still has some reserves
at the end of the ride. So maybe after a 150km ride eating normally the
rider has reserves of 25% left and feels ok, and after a 200km ride the
rider has reserves of 10% left and still feels ok. The rider has eaten
a banana, and some bread every 50km on both rides and thinks this will
work for a longer distance too, but after say 300km of a 400km ride,
reserves go to zero, and everything goes pear shaped.

So in my opinion a 100km ride is much more similar to a 200km ride than
a 200km ride is to a 300km ride despite the smaller percantage
difference.

I find I can subsist on liquid fuel on a 200 but anything more and I
start feeling the urge for proper food. Or at least beans on toast...

It is said that it is actually possible to gain weight during an Audax
UK 400, provided Dave "El Supremo" Hudson is doing the catering.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
There ought to be a /La/ against it.

Dave Larrington said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

() said:

Peter Cole said:

Queso wrote:
>>>If you've done a century, a 200K is pretty much the same<<
>
>
> Well, except that it's about 33% longer.

Well, since you're quibbling, it's actually 24% longer.

> Which is to say that a 75
> miler is pretty much the same as a century ride.

Sure, if you can comfortably do 75 miles, you won't have difficulty with
a century.

> You have time to ride 25 miles on your lunch?

Who's "you"?

But you see, that is just it. Most of these rides are more or less the
same, but at some point there is a critical threshold where things are
not the same. I think it is around 300km, at least for me.

During most rides, a rider uses more calories than they consume, even
when they stuff down a few candy bars, and sports drink. Up to a
certain distance this works fine, as the rider still has some reserves
at the end of the ride. So maybe after a 150km ride eating normally the
rider has reserves of 25% left and feels ok, and after a 200km ride the
rider has reserves of 10% left and still feels ok. The rider has eaten
a banana, and some bread every 50km on both rides and thinks this will
work for a longer distance too, but after say 300km of a 400km ride,
reserves go to zero, and everything goes pear shaped.

So in my opinion a 100km ride is much more similar to a 200km ride than
a 200km ride is to a 300km ride despite the smaller percantage
difference.

I find I can subsist on liquid fuel on a 200 but anything more and I
start feeling the urge for proper food. Or at least beans on toast...

It is said that it is actually possible to gain weight during an Audax
UK 400, provided Dave "El Supremo" Hudson is doing the catering.

I imagine you mean miles, due to your increased recumbent efficiency...
;-)

A catered ride sounds like fun. Where do I sign up?

Joseph

PS: I had my suspicions about you, but once I saw the pic of the
6-wheel CX, I knew for sure.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Larrington said:

I find I can subsist on liquid fuel on a 200 but anything more and I
start feeling the urge for proper food.

Interesting. I recently read an article about a randonneur.
She mentioned how at a certain point she'd completely lose
her appetite, despite the body's need for fuel in order to
continue on. She also mentioned how the mere thought of
swallowing would become objectionable -- she referred to
the effect as "Gatorade throat." I guess individuals'
responses differ, and responses can differ within the
individual, depending on the distance & exertion.

Quoted message said:

Or at least beans on toast...

That sounds good. Although I'm currently really craving
Spanish rice. And I haven't even done any riding yet today.

cheers,
Tom
--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Steve Sr. wrote:

First, I think Joseph's advice was excellent. Here are my further
thoughts:

Quoted message said:

I think I have a pretty good handle on the equipment side of things. I
have a choice of a Cannondale T2000 touring bike or a Litespeed
Tuscany. The Cannondale has fenders, rear rack, and front handlebar
bag but is pretty heavy. The Litespeed is is lightweight but I'll add
a rear rack and trunk to carry supplies. If the weather is not
threatening I'll probably take the Litespeed.

Unless your route is quite hilly (and hopefully it's not, for your
first such ride) the bike weight shouldn't be as big a concern as the
comfort difference, if any. If I were to use the 'Dale, though, I'd
remove the fenders for the ride if allowed (unless it's going to rain).
They'll add a bit of aero drag. OTOH, I've found the handlebar bag
very useful on long rides and wouldn't want to go without it.

Quoted message said:

My main question involves the other aspect of brevets and that is
riding strategy i.e. pace, hydration, nutrition, and rest. I have
always felt pretty tired after centuries so I am wondering what I have
to do to be able go farther and survive.

For me, a really long ride is a balance between pace and physical
comfort. If I go too slow, I'll have pain in my butt, hands, neck,
etc. If I go too fast, my legs will give out. So I try for that
perfect balance, and I refuse to ever push my self. Gear down for
hills, etc.

This influenced my choice of riding partners. On my only double
century, three of us were well matched, and faster than the other seven
(or so) that started the ride. The only problem was one person who
wanted to ride at our faster pace, but kept dropping behind. After a
few instances of this, we told her we couldn't wait for her any more.
(She dropped back to the slower group, and none of them finished.)

I find aero bars (clip-ons) to be invaluable. They make a big
difference in speed when I'm using them, they give another riding
position for comfort, and even when I'm not down on those bars, the
elbow pads give me one more place to rest my hands.

For long rides, I pay a _lot_ of attention to trivial comfort things.
For example, I know that on ordinary rides in hot weather, my glasses
tend to slip down my nose a little. I normally put up with it. For a
long ride, I use one of those straps to hold them in place.

I took plenty of paper towels for mopping sweat. (It was a very hot
day.)

Eating was a concern, of course. We did a couple of fairly
conventional lunch stops, and I carried some snacks. (Pringles and
Mountain Dew taste good to me on long rides.) I find those energy gels
were a big help. It may be largely the caffiene, but when I was
feeling really beat in the last 50 miles, they'd pick me up nicely.

My one serious problem was probably hyponatremia. At about 150 miles,
I was feeling weak as if dehydrated, but my stomach was sloshing with
water, and the thought of drinking more water was almost nauseating.
Then I recalled an old tip, and I stopped at a fast food joint and got
a bunch of those paper packages of salt. I swallowed some salt, then
added a couple packages to each water bottle, and soon improved
greatly. Nowadays, in hot weather, I always try to add a little salt
(or salt substitute) to my water. (Since then, someone's told me the
salt substitute isn't as good, but it seems to work well for me.)

One of my riding buddies almost quit at about 175 miles. What nearly
took him out were bad blisters on his feet! Pay attention to small
discomforts immediately. (I carried a little tube of skin lotion /
sunscreen. I never needed it, but he used it to help his blisters.
Vaseline might be handy for incipient blisters, too, and maybe
bandaids.)

BTW, my other riding partner had a very painful knee problem develop at
about 100 miles. I don't know exactly what it was, but he was wincing
very badly any time he had to walk, and it hurt to pedal with that leg.
He insisted on completing the ride, and he did - pedaling the last 100
miles, he claimed, using only the good leg. He's gone on to do
Paris-Brest-Paris a couple times. Tough rider!

Good luck. Have fun!

- Frank Krygowski

Tom Keats said:

Interesting. I recently read an article about a randonneur.
She mentioned how at a certain point she'd completely lose
her appetite, despite the body's need for fuel in order to
continue on. She also mentioned how the mere thought of
swallowing would become objectionable -- she referred to
the effect as "Gatorade throat." I guess individuals'
responses differ, and responses can differ within the
individual, depending on the distance & exertion.

Certainly during mountain bike endurance
races there is a point after which eating real
food becomes pretty much unthinkable for most
riders, thus everybody fills tubes with the gel.
I was never sure if this was something peculiar
to off road or if it could also occur during a long
road race. The roughness of off road riding
seems to contribute to the virtual impossibility
of chewing and swallowing.

Robert

Queso said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you've done a century, a 200K is pretty much the same<<

Well, except that it's about 33% longer. Which is to say that a 75
miler is pretty much the same as a century ride.

You have time to ride 25 miles on your lunch?

It is a long lunch. About an hour and a half on the bike.

Steve

Quoted message said:

If I were to use the 'Dale, though, I'd
remove the fenders for the ride if allowed (unless it's going to rain).
They'll add a bit of aero drag.

Aerodynamics doesn't become an issue until speeds much greater than
typical brevet speeds. Even then, fenders cause minuscule drag.

Quoted message said:

Vaseline might be handy for incipient blisters, too, and maybe
bandaids.)

I find that diaper rash ointment (A&D) works well to prevent blisters
and chafing, since it contains both Vaseline and lanolin. Moisture is a
big factor in chafing as it causes the skin to soften and break down
more easily.

Quoted message said:

BTW, my other riding partner had a very painful knee problem develop at
about 100 miles.

This happened to me when I had to abandon a 400K at 300K. I had
foolishly changed my cleat angle just a little the night before to try
to cure a foot hot spot I had developed on an earlier brevet. Important
rule: never change anything before a long ride!

In article <[email hidden]>,

() said:

Dave Larrington said:

It is said that it is actually possible to gain weight during an Audax
UK 400, provided Dave "El Supremo" Hudson is doing the catering.

I imagine you mean miles, due to your increased recumbent efficiency...
;-)

A catered ride sounds like fun. Where do I sign up?

<URL:http://www.audax.uk.net/cal/index.htm>, search for "Hudson" and
don't necessarily believe the climbing figures. The Panel believes that
it is not possible for a "600" in that part of the country to have only
3000m of climbing... I think he's only doing tea and biscuits this
year, but is alleged to be returning with the full wossname in time for
next year's PBP qualifiers.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
The thing about Tony Parsons, though, the defining aspect of his
personality, is that he is a complete [censored].

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

If I were to use the 'Dale, though, I'd
remove the fenders for the ride if allowed (unless it's going to rain).
They'll add a bit of aero drag.

Aerodynamics doesn't become an issue until speeds much greater than
typical brevet speeds. Even then, fenders cause minuscule drag.

I agree it's probably a small affect. I don't recall ever seeing
figures, though, and I would be interested in seeing some.

I'll admit to "believing in" aerodynamics, the same way some people
believe that taking ten grams out of their saddlebag makes them faster.
;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

If I were to use the 'Dale, though, I'd
remove the fenders for the ride if allowed (unless it's going to rain).
They'll add a bit of aero drag.

Aerodynamics doesn't become an issue until speeds much greater than
typical brevet speeds. Even then, fenders cause minuscule drag.

I agree it's probably a small affect. I don't recall ever seeing
figures, though, and I would be interested in seeing some.

I'll admit to "believing in" aerodynamics, the same way some people
believe that taking ten grams out of their saddlebag makes them faster.
;-)

- Frank Krygowski

I'd take 10g in a bag over fenders any day! To me fenders make sense
for commuting, but on a real long ride in foul weather you are going to
get wet and dirty anyway, so why cart around the extra weight and drag?

Joseph

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

My arm is being twisted by some friends to join them in a couple of
brevets this spring and summer. It looks like there will be a 200K and
two 300Ks. I am currently a solo "B" pace cyclist and rode 4700 miles
last year. These rides were split between 25 mile "lunch" rides during
the week, Metrics on weekends, and a couple of centuries.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the equipment side of things. I
have a choice of a Cannondale T2000 touring bike or a Litespeed
Tuscany. The Cannondale has fenders, rear rack, and front handlebar
bag but is pretty heavy. The Litespeed is is lightweight but I'll add
a rear rack and trunk to carry supplies. If the weather is not
threatening I'll probably take the Litespeed.

My main question involves the other aspect of brevets and that is
riding strategy i.e. pace, hydration, nutrition, and rest. I have
always felt pretty tired after centuries so I am wondering what I have
to do to be able go farther and survive.

Can any of you offer and direct advice or point me to other web
sources which may have this kind of information? I have looked ar the
www.rusa.org site but didn't really see the kind of info I was looking
for. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Steve

As for bikes, I'd take the Ti bike no matter what the weather. Comfy
absorbent Ti is hard to beat for long hours in the saddle.

I'd make sure I had close fitting rain gear too. Using a big flapping
rain jacket as a parachute is a big energy waster.

Joseph

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I'd take 10g in a bag over fenders any day! To me fenders make sense
for commuting, but on a real long ride in foul weather you are going to
get wet and dirty anyway, so why cart around the extra weight and drag?

Full-size fenders are often (if not always) required
in formal randonnees. There are even strict criteria
about how much the fenders should cover the wheels.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Larrington said:

I find I can subsist on liquid fuel on a 200 but anything more and I
start feeling the urge for proper food.

Interesting. I recently read an article about a randonneur.
She mentioned how at a certain point she'd completely lose
her appetite, despite the body's need for fuel in order to
continue on. She also mentioned how the mere thought of
swallowing would become objectionable -- she referred to
the effect as "Gatorade throat." I guess individuals'
responses differ, and responses can differ within the
individual, depending on the distance & exertion.

That's one of the first symptoms of a lot of bad things.
It's kind of a catch-22, the more you need it the less
capability you have to consume it. Loss of appetite is
the first signpost on your way to the bonk zone...

_ Booker C. Bense

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On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:25:57 -0500, Steve Sr. <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hello,

My arm is being twisted by some friends to join them in a couple of
brevets this spring and summer. It looks like there will be a 200K and
two 300Ks. I am currently a solo "B" pace cyclist and rode 4700 miles
last year. These rides were split between 25 mile "lunch" rides during
the week, Metrics on weekends, and a couple of centuries.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the equipment side of things. I
have a choice of a Cannondale T2000 touring bike or a Litespeed
Tuscany. The Cannondale has fenders, rear rack, and front handlebar
bag but is pretty heavy. The Litespeed is is lightweight but I'll add
a rear rack and trunk to carry supplies. If the weather is not
threatening I'll probably take the Litespeed.

My main question involves the other aspect of brevets and that is
riding strategy i.e. pace, hydration, nutrition, and rest. I have
always felt pretty tired after centuries so I am wondering what I have
to do to be able go farther and survive.

Can any of you offer and direct advice or point me to other web
sources which may have this kind of information? I have looked ar the
www.rusa.org site but didn't really see the kind of info I was looking
for. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Steve

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I think that nutrition and
pacing will be the big issues for the 200K and 300K in April. These
will be from Morrisville, NC to Siler City and back for 200k and about
8000 feet of climbing . Two weeks later is the 300K from Morrisville,
NC to Asheboro, NC through the Uwharrie Mountains. This one has about
12,000 feet of climbing.

All of this is in preparation for a double century (300K) from Apex,
NC to Emerald Isle at the coast in late June. Here we will have almost
enough daylight and fairly flat terrain after about 50 miles. The
jokers in this are sun and heat and the ability to stay hydrated. The
best part is we won't have to ride home from the beach!

Thanks,

Steve