Hamas wins?

i heard a brodcast version of this 1974 speech by arafat to the un, i was most impressed with his diplomatic eloquence:
www.mondediplo.com/focus/mideast/arafat74-en

again in '88 in geneva, he spoke:
www.mondediplo.com/focus/mideast/arafat88-en

his was a hard existence, held under house arrest, held responsible for actions beyond his immediate control, retaliated against including his residence fired upon.

i feel his was a high standard to live up to in many ways, however, this vote shows his mantle was not representitive of the majority.

such is the necessary outcome of democracy in action, the organic processes by which any national government and it's policies and laws are developed and evolved from.

i tend personaly to be for allowing these processes to be allowed without interference. this is certainly what the citizens of the us expect in terms of interference with their government, i would feel it safe to say.

this is where the ideals of international law and the united nations come in, to monitor and hold hearings regarding these conflict situations, but the us and israel have chosen to ignore rulings of these and other international bodies so often they are surely seen as hypocritical at best.

davidmc said:

democracy? what are your thoughts?

davidmc said:

democracy? what are your thoughts?

Hamas now have a lawful means to achieve their political ends, and it appears that Hamas have the support, skills and credibility required to unite a broken nation. I suspect Hamas will be a far harder negotiation partner (not that Israel have actually done any negotiation with Abbas yet), but I also suspect that they will be more effective at reigning in the militants. I doubt that Israel's usual tactic of isolating the head from the body of government will work as well either (eg: Arafat, Abbas). Again that could be a good thing if Israel choose to negotiate rather than shoot.

Hamas have been given a mandate by the Palestinian people.
No one can refute that the Hamas mandate is the result of a fair vote.

I said it before here that the middle ground in Israel and Palestine would be forced to give way.
General Sharons tactics and his country's occupation of Palestine made Hamas
(because of it's resistance to the zionist occupiers) electable.
So it has now come to pass.

I also stated that Israel would, hopefully sooner rather than later, negotiate with Hamas.
This election result brings that eventuality closer.

Someone on the Israeli side now needs to be brave and take the decision to
engage.
They will have to do so at some point - just let's hope it's sooner.

Hamas have been given a mandate by the Palestinian people.
No one can refute that the Hamas mandate is the result of a fair vote.

I said it before here that the middle ground in Israel and Palestine would be forced to give way.
General Sharons tactics and his country's occupation of Palestine made Hamas
(because of it's resistance to the zionist occupiers) electable.
So it has now come to pass.

I also stated that Israel would, hopefully sooner rather than later, negotiate with Hamas.
This election result brings that eventuality closer.

Someone on the Israeli side now needs to be brave and take the decision to
engage.
They will have to do so at some point - just let's hope it's sooner.

limerickman said:

Hamas have been given a mandate by the Palestinian people.
No one can refute that the Hamas mandate is the result of a fair vote.

I said it before here that the middle ground in Israel and Palestine would be forced to give way.
General Sharons tactics and his country's occupation of Palestine made Hamas
(because of it's resistance to the zionist occupiers) electable.
So it has now come to pass.

I also stated that Israel would, hopefully sooner rather than later, negotiate with Hamas.
This election result brings that eventuality closer.

Someone on the Israeli side now needs to be brave and take the decision to
engage.
They will have to do so at some point - just let's hope it's sooner.

Yes. Now they will be obliged, by more than just "courtesy", to engage on the political front.

limerickman said:

Hamas have been given a mandate by the Palestinian people.
No one can refute that the Hamas mandate is the result of a fair vote.

I said it before here that the middle ground in Israel and Palestine would be forced to give way.
General Sharons tactics and his country's occupation of Palestine made Hamas
(because of it's resistance to the zionist occupiers) electable.
So it has now come to pass.

I also stated that Israel would, hopefully sooner rather than later, negotiate with Hamas.
This election result brings that eventuality closer.

Someone on the Israeli side now needs to be brave and take the decision to
engage.
They will have to do so at some point - just let's hope it's sooner.

Yes. Now they will be obliged, by more than just "courtesy", to engage on the political front.

davidmc said:

Yes. Now they will be obliged, by more than just "courtesy", to engage on the political front.

Who are you referring to when you say "they", David?

davidmc said:

Yes. Now they will be obliged, by more than just "courtesy", to engage on the political front.

Who are you referring to when you say "they", David?

limerickman said:

Who are you referring to when you say "they", David?

"Both" parties/states/entities. From what I read, over here, the Fatah party/apparatus was corrupt, much like our Republican &, to an extent, Democratic Party. It would stand to reason that some other political organization is given a chance to govern. My only misgiving is that the Hamas organization has called for the destruction of Israel. Am I correct in this assertion 😕

limerickman said:

Who are you referring to when you say "they", David?

"Both" parties/states/entities. From what I read, over here, the Fatah party/apparatus was corrupt, much like our Republican &, to an extent, Democratic Party. It would stand to reason that some other political organization is given a chance to govern. My only misgiving is that the Hamas organization has called for the destruction of Israel. Am I correct in this assertion 😕

davidmc said:

My only misgiving is that the Hamas organization has called for the destruction of Israel. Am I correct in this assertion 😕

Yes, Hamas have stated that pease is not possible while their lands are occupied. By "their lands" I took it to mean israil. I seen a US official stating that the US would not recognise Hamas as a political entity because it was a terrorist organisation on the news tonight.

My sad prodiction is that the US, Israil or both will use agression to remove Hamas under the guise of the war on terrorism. If this comes to pass it will open a very nasty wound.

Fixey said:

Yes, Hamas have stated that pease is not possible while their lands are occupied. By "their lands" I took it to mean israil. I seen a US official stating that the US would not recognise Hamas as a political entity because it was a terrorist organisation on the news tonight.

My sad prodiction is that the US, Israil or both will use agression to remove Hamas under the guise of the war on terrorism. If this comes to pass it will open a very nasty wound.

The us and israel have their own definition of "democracy".The us version of "democracy" is "what serves big corporations like halliburton and bechtel best".Many americans will defend this.They don't want to lose their air-conditioning,their big cars and everything else that they can't live without.They think that true democracy threatens this.They're right.
When democracy threatens the dominant paradigm if american hegemony they will respond with armed force as they have for so many years.Many people will die,many people will be maimed,but for so many americans,that is the price that they are prepared to pay for their fat,empty lives.
Why,exactly,do americans consume more drugs,legal and illegal,than any other country on this planet?
Because,deep down inside ,they all know how f^^ked their country,their philosophy and their way of life has proven to be.

davidmc said:

"Both" parties/states/entities. From what I read, over here, the Fatah party/apparatus was corrupt, much like our Republican &, to an extent, Democratic Party. It would stand to reason that some other political organization is given a chance to govern. My only misgiving is that the Hamas organization has called for the destruction of Israel. Am I correct in this assertion 😕

Fatah (Araftats party) appear to have been very corrupt - I gather that from reading various newspaper who all seem to agree on that topic.
They were "in power" (as much as you can be under Zionist rule) for over 40 years in Palestine.

Hamas in it's 1988 Charter called for the destruction of Israel.
But listening to Jeremy Bowen (BBC) even though Hamas have no retracted that objective, Hamas have effectively been on ceasefire for the past 12 months.
Which may not mean a lot but it suggests that perhaps there might be some light at the end of the tunnel.

stevebaby said:

The us and israel have their own definition of "democracy".The us version of "democracy" is "what serves big corporations like halliburton and bechtel best".Many americans will defend this.They don't want to lose their air-conditioning,their big cars and everything else that they can't live without.They think that true democracy threatens this.They're right.
When democracy threatens the dominant paradigm if american hegemony they will respond with armed force as they have for so many years.Many people will die,many people will be maimed,but for so many americans,that is the price that they are prepared to pay for their fat,empty lives.
Why,exactly,do americans consume more drugs,legal and illegal,than any other country on this planet?
Because,deep down inside ,they all know how f^^ked their country,their philosophy and their way of life has proven to be.

You are correct again. Gotta go. I'm coming down off of my drugs 😉

Fixey said:

Yes, Hamas have stated that pease is not possible while their lands are occupied. By "their lands" I took it to mean israil. I seen a US official stating that the US would not recognise Hamas as a political entity because it was a terrorist organisation on the news tonight.

My sad prodiction is that the US, Israil or both will use agression to remove Hamas under the guise of the war on terrorism. If this comes to pass it will open a very nasty wound.

Fixey, where have you been 😕 Good to see you back.

"Because,deep down inside ,they all know how f^^ked their country,their philosophy and their way of life has proven to be."

I wouldn't go that far. I think I definitely have this feeling China will overtake the U.S. in the very near future but that doesn't mean I'd agree the U.S. is totally screwed up.
The strange thing about all this anti-Americanism in the U.K. and Europe is that both Europe and the U.K. copy the U.S., as opposed to creating something entirely different. Europe is basically, more or less, following the American economic model and value system with a few minor differences (such as tax and welfare or aspects of foreign policy).
Europe is trying to apply U.S. values to Europe, not understanding the U.S. has a totally different history behind it and what works for the U.S. won't simply work the same way in Europe.
Yet China is doing something very different and I'm convinced what they're doing over there is working. They have strong government and centralisation mixed in with free enterprise and initiative. They are producing more jobs and more science graduates than Europe and they have the common sense to marginalise religion and build a secular society instead.

stevebaby said:

The us and israel have their own definition of "democracy".The us version of "democracy" is "what serves big corporations like halliburton and bechtel best".Many americans will defend this.They don't want to lose their air-conditioning,their big cars and everything else that they can't live without.They think that true democracy threatens this.They're right.
When democracy threatens the dominant paradigm if american hegemony they will respond with armed force as they have for so many years.Many people will die,many people will be maimed,but for so many americans,that is the price that they are prepared to pay for their fat,empty lives.
Why,exactly,do americans consume more drugs,legal and illegal,than any other country on this planet?
Because,deep down inside ,they all know how f^^ked their country,their philosophy and their way of life has proven to be.

Carrera said:

"Because,deep down inside ,they all know how f^^ked their country,their philosophy and their way of life has proven to be."

I wouldn't go that far. I think I definitely have this feeling China will overtake the U.S. in the very near future but that doesn't mean I'd agree the U.S. is totally screwed up.
The strange thing about all this anti-Americanism in the U.K. and Europe is that both Europe and the U.K. copy the U.S., as opposed to creating something entirely different. Europe is basically, more or less, following the American economic model and value system with a few minor differences (such as tax and welfare or aspects of foreign policy).
Europe is trying to apply U.S. values to Europe, not understanding the U.S. has a totally different history behind it and what works for the U.S. won't simply work the same way in Europe.
Yet China is doing something very different and I'm convinced what they're doing over there is working. They have strong government and centralisation mixed in with free enterprise and initiative. They are producing more jobs and more science graduates than Europe and they have the common sense to marginalise religion and build a secular society instead.

I tend to agree w/ you on the point of historical patterns dictating whether or not following any policy will work. China, however, is not as rosy a scenario as you paint. There are many people living in huts w/ dirt floors & they employ state-sponsored censorship not to mention that they didn't float thier currency for a long time (aka-cheating). The one thing they have going for them is that they don't have a large contingent of religious zealots/nuts like my republic has at present.

davidmc said:

I tend to agree w/ you on the point of historical patterns dictating whether or not following any policy will work. China, however, is not as rosy a scenario as you paint. There are many people living in huts w/ dirt floors & they employ state-sponsored censorship not to mention that they didn't float thier currency for a long time (aka-cheating). The one thing they have going for them is that they don't have a large contingent of religious zealots/nuts like my republic has at present.

From what I read about China - it is not a place where I would choose to live.
Human rights abuses appear to be widespread.
Capital punishment is endemic.
Forced sterlisation of parts of their population.
Very poor labour/employee laws.

As much as we may complain about our systems of goverment, we at least
don't have to face the same issues as our Chinese friends.

Given enough rope, Hamas will hang themselves.