Airless Tires? And How Heavy Is "Heavy"?

On 3 Feb 2006 12:22:41 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?

They are semi-solid constructs, sometimes using a conventional tube
with a foam doughnut in place of the tube, and sometimes made as a
unit with the foam center molded in place within the tire shell.
While they are often regarded as a good thing on wheelchairs and other
low-speed devoces which require a minimal-maintenance service
situation, they have far higher rolling resistance than most
conventional tires (even the puncture-resistant ones fare better from
what I've heard) and they ride very rough; like running a conventional
tire severely over rated pressure.

Some recreational and commuter cyclists like them. No competitive and
few enthusiast cyclists feel that the penalties justify the expense,
inefficiency, and difficulty of installation.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

In the past 4 years, I have ridden on average, 2,000 miles per year. I
have had one puncture flat in that time.

What do I ride? Tubulars (aka sew-ups). Half were standard butyl
tubed, the others TUFO vulcanized tublesss tubulars.

"Impossible!" is what I hear all the time. But if you know how to use
tubulars, they are far better in this respect.

Clinchers are prone to flatting. The stiffness of the construction
encourages puncture rather than deformation. The tube is prone to
pinch flats. And no, this is not because of "faulty installation." It
is the "snakebite" phenomenon--which happens to mountainbikers even
more frequently. At some point, you will bottom out to the rim flange,
and when you do, it is snakebite time. Tubulars don't have that sharp
flange, and so bottoming out never damages anything.

Go ahead and ride your airless bricks. See if you have fun.

The great thing about tubulars is that they are less flat-prone and at
the same time the most fun to ride! (Nothing accelerates, corners or
feels like a good tubular).

And you don't have to deal with trying to get that kevar bead over the
flange in the winter, as you do with clinchers. Tubul;ars are easy to
change--just strip one off and pull the new one on.

Mileage:

rear tires, I get 1,000 miles on a lightweight trainer (Conti Giro) or
TUFO performance type. I gert 2,000 rear wheel miles on the heavier
TUFOS.

front tires, I get over 4,000 miles and have to change them due to
drying out, rather than treadwear.

Maybe if you have constant flats; I tried some back in the 70s and

(a) they're real bait for screwdriver skin punctures trying to get
them on and off

(b) they don't solve the changing tire problem! The tube wears through
in a little longer than it takes normally (because you don't care about
actually wearing through as much) so you still have to change the
sucker, and that's _hard_, going off and going on.

(c) the increased vibration breaks apart the hub flange at the spoke
holes.

Cheng Shin tires last forever, if you want an alternative, though
they have by far the greatest rolling resistance I've ever run into.

--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?

They ride like they have 200 psi in them, and they roll like they have
40 psi in them. In other words, the worst of both worlds. They won't
go flat but you'll also not enjoy riding your bike...

bill said:

In the past 4 years, I have ridden on average, 2,000 miles per year.
I have had one puncture flat in that time.

8,000 miles and "one puncture flat." Have you had other types of
flats?

Quoted message said:

What do I ride? Tubulars (aka sew-ups). Half were standard butyl
tubed, the others TUFO vulcanized tublesss tubulars.

"Impossible!" is what I hear all the time. But if you know how to
use tubulars, they are far better in this respect.

Clinchers are prone to flatting. The stiffness of the construction
encourages puncture rather than deformation.

Malarkey. Pure and simple. Those who have ridden both know that you
are either making this up or thoroughly confused. There are lots of
clinchers available with casings every bit as supple as tubulars.
Hell, most tubulars are nowhere near as supple as the old Setas but
people talk about them like all tubulars are like those old silks.

Quoted message said:

The tube is prone to pinch flats. And no, this is not because of
"faulty installation." It is the "snakebite" phenomenon--which
happens to mountainbikers even more frequently. At some point, you
will bottom out to the rim flange, and when you do, it is snakebite
time.

Fairly true. Although I can't recall a pinch flat on my clinchers in
quite a while, a couple of years maybe.

Quoted message said:

Tubulars don't have that sharp flange, and so bottoming out
never damages anything.

Malarkey again.

Quoted message said:

Go ahead and ride your airless bricks. See if you have fun.

The great thing about tubulars is that they are less flat-prone and
at the same time the most fun to ride! (Nothing accelerates, corners
or feels like a good tubular).

A double dose of you-know-what here.

Quoted message said:

And you don't have to deal with trying to get that kevar bead over
the flange in the winter, as you do with clinchers. Tubul;ars are
easy to change--just strip one off and pull the new one on.

I can change the tube out of a clincher faster than I can replace a
tubular.

Quoted message said:

Mileage:

rear tires, I get 1,000 miles on a lightweight trainer (Conti Giro)
or TUFO performance type. I gert 2,000 rear wheel miles on the
heavier TUFOS.

Wow. I'd be really [censored] if I only got 1000 miles on a rear tire
before it wore out.

Quoted message said:

front tires, I get over 4,000 miles and have to change them due to
drying out, rather than treadwear.

Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put the
new tire on the front.

NYC XYZ said:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

I used the 700x38 version of those tires, and they are about twice as
heavy as the lightest tires I have used in that size range.

http://www.schwalbe.com/index.pl?bereich=produkte&einsatzbereich=4&produktgruppe=48&produkt=131&details=226

I _love_ Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, but I have had some problems
with them blowing off my rims at modest amounts over the sidewall
rating. I have also had one sidewall herniate at the rated pressure
with less than 20 miles on the tire.

That's the bad news. The good news is that they not only prevent
punctures, but the tread's "chewy center" offers a cushy ride even when
the casing is inflated very hard. It makes a tremendous positive
difference in ride quality.

I wish my bikes could accomodate the 700x47 size.

Chalo Colina

Tim McNamara said:

bill said:

front tires, I get over 4,000 miles and have to change them due to
drying out, rather than treadwear.

Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put the
new tire on the front.

Ah, but with tubulars, this isn't practical; only a clincher allows
the tire to be easily and swiftly demounted and remounted for
immediate use on a different wheel. Thus a worn tubular on a front
wheel is likely to remain in service there until it's worn out. The
commonplace clincher safety measure of always putting the best tire
forward isn't a policy that easily adhered to with tubulars.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

I gave up quickly on slime tubes for the reasons stated by others. It's
impossible to repair a puncture when you get one, and worse, difficult to
reinflate the tube. I also gave up after a couple winters on studded tires.
Their rolling resistance is big-time (2+ mph for me), plus they are very
noisy.

Mr. Tuffy liners stop many (not all) punctures, but their sharp edges
themselves cause leaks. That can be cured with thick thorn resistant tubes,
which I do use. But they too have a downside. They are more susceptible to
stem failures than other tires.

I have had success with Bontrager kevlar-lined tires. Like the Mr. Tuffy
liners, they don't stop everything (I've had failures when I hit a 1 1/2
inch screw and a 1 inch nail), but they do stop a lot of small stuff. Plus
they're good for 5000 miles or so on the rear wheel and almost indefinitely
on the front. I assume I'm giving up some speed because they are moderately
heavy. I use them with the thorn resistant tube and sometimes a Mr. Tuffy
liner, though I'm leaning against that right now. On long trips, my spare
tubes are not thorn resistant. They're too bulky.

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, All:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?

TIA!!

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, All:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?

TIA!!

there are two types you could use, the entire airless tire/tube unit as one,
or use a tire of your choice with a airless tube.
In either case they are heavier, which makes the wheels feel sluggish and
more hard to pedal (sort of like the rolling resistance is greater).
They ride and feel harder or more harsh. They are very difficult to get on,
you have to be careful to not stab yourself as you have to use real wide
blade screwdrivers to put them on, whcih means thin alumnium rims can be
damaged in the process, but if you have steel stamped rims you are OK.
The sold tire ones may not have a good gripper tire design, you may need to
be f\careful on wet roads or streets in the turns and such.
But if you are getting lots of flats from thorns, glass, sharp rock
splinters and such, they are the way to go in that case.
it is a trade off, lots of flats or lots of riding, so it depends.

NYC XYZ said:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

Too heavy for racing if you're serious about it, but not too heavy
otherwise, especially on a bike like a Streetmachine which isn't
exactly light to start with.

I use standard Marathons on mine and have managed one puncture in
several years (a glass sliver). Also use Marathons on the Brompton
folder, add another puncture over several years on those. Unless
you're in a particulat puncture black spot) lanes covered in
trimmings from Hawthorn hedges are often cited in the UK) standard
Marathons (standard issue on the SMGT) should be fine.

Quoted message said:

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?

They're made from closed cell foam, I think. As to "how do they
work?", "not very well" appears to be the almost universal opinion
from cyclists that actually want to get about over any sort of
distance and enjoy themselves in the process. But you won't get
flat tyres.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Too heavy for racing if you're serious about it, but not too heavy
otherwise, especially on a bike like a Streetmachine which isn't
exactly light to start with.

Actually, I almost threw one up to the ceiling the first time I lifted
it! With all the talk about "heavy" I forgot that 33-lbs. is almost
less than half what I curl at the gym!

I mean, even a tire weighing 300g means like a pound for two of them on
a bike...that's like carring a loaf of bread in the pannier! Not even,
since that pound is "stretched out"....

Of course I have a need for speed -- though I won't be "racing" -- but
I don't see how things can be adversely affected by a couple of hundred
of extra grams.

Quoted message said:

I use standard Marathons on mine and have managed one puncture in
several years (a glass sliver). Also use Marathons on the Brompton
folder, add another puncture over several years on those. Unless
you're in a particulat puncture black spot) lanes covered in
trimmings from Hawthorn hedges are often cited in the UK) standard
Marathons (standard issue on the SMGT) should be fine.

Thanks! That's a relief for sure. The last flat I had was at night,
along a small highway (how come these are always full of debris?!),
like thirty-five miles away from home. A real bummer topping off an
otherwise great day.

Quoted message said:

They're made from closed cell foam, I think. As to "how do they
work?", "not very well" appears to be the almost universal opinion
from cyclists that actually want to get about over any sort of
distance and enjoy themselves in the process. But you won't get
flat tyres.

I'm still damned curious, and would be willing to just try some out --
though I'll be too lazy to install them if they're really that much of
a hassle just getting on and off! Not to mention damaging the
wheels...?!?!

Quoted message said:

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

NYC XYZ said:

Of course I have a need for speed -- though I won't be "racing" -- but
I don't see how things can be adversely affected by a couple of hundred
of extra grams.

Depends on how much you're really worrying, but if it weren't a
genuine concern all the bikes ridden by pros wouldn't be floating
/very/ close to the UCI's minimum weight limit, as there'd be
nothing to gain.

Also, if the weight is on the wheels it'll possibly have some
noticable effect on the handling, perhaps more especially on the
steered wheel. But I doubt you'd notice that much difference on a
bike like the Streetmachine, which is both refined and a little
ponderous even though it can get a good head of speed with a run at it.

Quoted message said:

I'm still damned curious, and would be willing to just try some out --

Your time... though I'm not afraid to experiment a fair bit (or I
wouldn't ride 'bents and unis), something which has been widely
available for years and has attracted /no/ positive comments from
any cyclist covering distances I've yet come across is really not
shouting out "Try me! Try me!".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Most of the opinions you will receive about airless tires are from
people who have never tried them and are just repeating what they've
heard from a disgruntled consumer who probably wasn't smart enough to
buy the correct size tire for their rim.

The main problem with them is that they only fit well on a few rims
and, since you can't air them up to fit, you don't get the kind of
performance that they are capable of giving.

They are much heavier and don't roll _quite_ as well as a pneumatic
tire but, if you use them for what they are best for, they are, to my
mind, SUPER and I have always had one bike with airless tires for about
8 years now.

There are times when I _need_ to get somewhere, times when it is cold,
raining, dark, I'm going to be carrying groceries, etc., etc. and I
just don't want to chance getting a flat.

However, most of the time I ride a fixie with pneumatic tires.

Lewis.

**********

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?

TIA!!

Why is this x-posted to rec.bicycles.misc *and* rec.bicycles.tech *and*
rec.bicycles.marketplace??

Only one seems necessary.

\\paul

Paul Hobson said:

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?

TIA!!

Why is this x-posted to rec.bicycles.misc *and* rec.bicycles.tech *and*
rec.bicycles.marketplace??

Only one seems necessary.

\\paul

I figured a wider net catches more fish!

NYC XYZ said:

Paul Hobson said:

Why is this x-posted to rec.bicycles.misc *and* rec.bicycles.tech *and*
rec.bicycles.marketplace??

Only one seems necessary.

Quoted message said:

I figured a wider net catches more fish!

From the FAQ:

[quote]

The rec.bicycles subgroups are described below - please try to post your
article to the appropriate group. The newsgroups were designed to
minimize cross posting, so please take the time to think about the most
appropriate newsgroup and post your article there...

rec.bicycles.marketplace: Bicycles, components, ancillary equipment and
services wanted or for sale, reviews of such things, places to buy them,
and evaluations of these sources. Not for discussion of general
engineering, maintenance, or repair -- see rec.bicycles.tech.

rec.bicycles.tech: Techniques of engineering, construction, maintenance
and repair of bicycles and ancillary equipment. Not for products or
services offered or wanted -- see rec.bicycles.marketplace.

rec.bicycles.misc: General riding techniques, rider physiology,
injuries and treatment, diets, and other cycling topics.
Not for products or services offered or wanted -- see
rec.bicycles.marketplace.

[unquote]

Some of you weirdos from ARBR are least tolerable. But your x-posting
is just silly.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

Yeah, and you ALWAYS wait for a green light before you cross the
street?

[quote="Paul Hobson"]

From the FAQ:

Quoted post said:

The rec.bicycles subgroups are described below - please try to post your
article to the appropriate group. The newsgroups were designed to
minimize cross posting, so please take the time to think about the most
appropriate newsgroup and post your article there...

rec.bicycles.marketplace: Bicycles, components, ancillary equipment and
services wanted or for sale, reviews of such things, places to buy them,
and evaluations of these sources. Not for discussion of general
engineering, maintenance, or repair -- see rec.bicycles.tech.

rec.bicycles.tech: Techniques of engineering, construction, maintenance
and repair of bicycles and ancillary equipment. Not for products or
services offered or wanted -- see rec.bicycles.marketplace.

rec.bicycles.misc: General riding techniques, rider physiology,
injuries and treatment, diets, and other cycling topics.
Not for products or services offered or wanted -- see
rec.bicycles.marketplace.

[unquote]

Some of you weirdos from ARBR are least tolerable. But your x-posting
is just silly.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
.:change the f to ph to reply:.

Quoted message said:

Some of you weirdos from ARBR are least tolerable. But your x-posting is
just silly.

Please don't lump all of us from ARBR together. I blocked NYC XYZ long ago
due to his excessive cross-posting. It really is quite irritating. He only
recently started posting to ARBR... I figured he was a regular from one of
the other groups and had just recently starting adding ARBR to his
cross-posting list.

This will be my last post to multiple groups. I apologize for replying to
all... just didn't know from which group Paul Hobson is a regular.

~ Nanc

And I top-post, too!

C'mon, let's have a riot and burn some New York State flags!

Nanc said:

Please don't lump all of us from ARBR together. I blocked NYC XYZ long ago
due to his excessive cross-posting. It really is quite irritating. He only
recently started posting to ARBR... I figured he was a regular from one of
the other groups and had just recently starting adding ARBR to his
cross-posting list.

This will be my last post to multiple groups. I apologize for replying to
all... just didn't know from which group Paul Hobson is a regular.

~ Nanc