Barriers and access

John Hearns said:

Talking about barriers across cycle and walking routes, is anyone aware of
any test cases which have been brought under the DDA?

In York, most barriers have a gate next to them with key access. Keys are
given out to disabled people, and I've seen one mother with kids in a trailer
with a key as well, so there must be other criteria.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune

Arthur Clune said:

In York, most barriers have a gate next to them with key access. Keys are
given out to disabled people, and I've seen one mother with kids in a
trailer with a key as well, so there must be other criteria.

These would be RADAR keys.

I fully support RADAR keys when used for accessible toilets etc.
I'm not supportive for their use on outdoor barriers, as I would imagine
the locks would rust and stop working, or at the very least need
maintenance. Also how can a wheelchair bound person on their own open a
heavy metal gate?
Sorry Arthur - not having a go at you.

Quoted message said:

The solution is surely not to inconvenience, or bar people with
wheelchairs, prams, bikes from paths but to deal with the yobboes who
are breaking the law.

Prolly not even yobs. Illegal riding of motorbikes was solved in my area
by building an off-road course on some waste ground (privately built of
course). Great fun.

Mark Thompson said:

Prolly not even yobs. Illegal riding of motorbikes was solved in my area
by building an off-road course on some waste ground (privately built of
course). Great fun.

That's a great idea. Any writeups on it which we could find online?

Quoted message said:

That's a great idea. Any writeups on it which we could find online?

Probably not. The whole thing was completely, totally and utterly
unnofficial as far as I know. Just some waste ground well away from houses
(so no noise issues) that someone made into a dirt track. In theory anyone
using it was probably tresspassing, but no signs, fences etc. A friend met
the owner/builder of the track who seemed quite pleased others were using
it.

It's quite possible that the owner of the land was completely unaware of
the kids whizzing round it on bikes, and that it was 'built' on the sly.
Certainly gets a few people out of the legal fears, makes it ten times
better (no opening times, insurance worries, required kit, FREE to users
and tax payers alike etc). The whole area has been redeveloped now. Was
in Murston, near Sittingbourne in Kent.

Given that the whole thing was completely unnofficial, I doubt you'd find
anything about it on the web or anywhere else.

John Hearns said:

Mark Thompson said:

Prolly not even yobs. Illegal riding of motorbikes was solved in my area
by building an off-road course on some waste ground (privately built of
course). Great fun.

That's a great idea. Any writeups on it which we could find online?

An example of how NOT to build facilities for the yutes is here. The
council wanted to displace the skateboarding rollerblading BMXing yutes
from the city centre as they spoiled the view, so they completely failed
to consult with any of the skater-types or the skate shops, but instead
built a skate park in an old playground frequented by drug dealers and
other similarly unsavoury folk in a neighborhood with a history of
assaults.

They then passed a bylaw prohibiting
skateboarding/rollerblading/cycling/etc in the city centre, enforced it
with roaming "ambassadors", and advertised it with draconic handouts
which were so loosely worded it implied a much wider prohibition than
there actually was.

Then they wondered publically why none of the kids were using this
skatepark they'd spent all this money on.

R.

Richard said:

An example of how NOT to build facilities for the yutes is here. The

Where's "here"? NetNews being plain text an all.

--
Arthur Clune

Arthur Clune said:

Richard said:

An example of how NOT to build facilities for the yutes is here. The

Where's "here"? NetNews being plain text an all.

Sheffield. I wasn't going to embarrass them, but...well, I shall.

R.

Richard said:

Sheffield. I wasn't going to embarrass them, but...well, I shall.

Shame. I'd like to hope that Edinburgh council could learn from other's
mistakes, but as I left, they were in the planning stages for a similar
project to get those naster BMXers and skater types out of Bristo
Square (Where if we're perfectly honest, they do little harm) and move
them well out of the centre of town into a far corner of a park.

Jon

John Hearns said:

I fully support RADAR keys when used for accessible toilets etc.
I'm not supportive for their use on outdoor barriers, as I would imagine
the locks would rust and stop working, or at the very least need
maintenance. Also how can a wheelchair bound person on their own open a
heavy metal gate?

IME the problem is not so much with the locks rusting as with the gates
themselves rusting to the posts.

There are 3 RADAR gates on my commute. They were all refurbished last
spring, after I complained to the council that it was an effort for 2
fit, able-bodied men to open them.

10(ish) months on, one of them is still in good working order. One is
rusted badly enough that, after a friend and I opened it so that he
could get his trike through, we were unable to close it again. The
third opens easily enough, but will never be able to open fully because
it has been built into a bank:
<URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/z-bollards/gate02.jpg>

I'm still trying to get them removed.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Arthur Clune said:

In York, most barriers have a gate next to them with key access. Keys are
given out to disabled people, and I've seen one mother with kids in a trailer
with a key as well, so there must be other criteria.

My wife was given a key when she complained to the council about the
anti-motorcycle barriers that had been installed at all entrances to all
parks in South Gloucestershire. They did nothing to keep motorbikes
out, but they were very effective at denying access to children in
double buggies.

I then had a copy made. The copy is much more convenient to carry - the
real keys have a huge head, presumably to make them easier for those
with limited dexterity to handle.

BTW, the barriers have now been removed following an article in the
local paper about children in pushchairs being denied access to parks.
They lasted about a year. Nice to know my council tax is being well spent.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Jon is Away! said:

Shame. I'd like to hope that Edinburgh council could learn from other's
mistakes, but as I left, they were in the planning stages for a similar
project to get those naster BMXers and skater types out of Bristo
Square (Where if we're perfectly honest, they do little harm) and move
them well out of the centre of town into a far corner of a park.

A skateboard-type gave a fascinating talk at a landscape architects'
meeting I attended. He showed some examples where a council had just
shoved in a skate park, but it was technically appalling (in the sense
that skateboarders/etc could do very little in it, as the ramps were the
wrong sort of ramp in the wrong sort of position [1], and the fact that
they'd made them hollow (skin over a frame) led to homeless/etc sleeping
under them. He then showed some excellent examples where skaters were
involved in the design, had got them right, and were using otherwise
'dead' space, eg under road flyovers.

[1] As someone who last went on a skateboard 28 years ago and fell off
enough times that I decided a bike was 'safer', I couldn't tell you any
more details.

R.

Danny Colyer said:

10(ish) months on, one of them is still in good working order. One is
rusted badly enough that, after a friend and I opened it so that he could
get his trike through, we were unable to close it again.

Shame ;-)

Quoted message said:

easily enough, but will never be able to open fully because it has been
built into a bank:
<URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/z-bollards/gate02.jpg>

Typical idiocy - thousands of pounds spent on heavy metalwork. Note the
shiny chain on the main gate. What's to stop chav and his mates taking a
boltcutter to that?

Danny Colyer said:

BTW, the barriers have now been removed following an article in the local
paper about children in pushchairs being denied access to parks. They
lasted about a year. Nice to know my council tax is being well spent.

Right on.
Here's an idea which just came to my mind.
The problem is youths on motorbikes roaring around paths which are there
for walkers, cyclists, dog walkers, children in prams...
They are neither taxed nor insured (and even if they were insured on the
road it would be null-and-void I bet on a cycle track). Half the time they
are probably stolen anyway.
How about every time there is a 'loony cyclists on the road/pavement'
letter we reply about the 'motorbike menace'.
Just an example of prejudices - no-one gets in a lather about off-road
bikes in the Daily Mail.

Jon is Away! said:

Richard said:

Sheffield. I wasn't going to embarrass them, but...well, I shall.

Shame. I'd like to hope that Edinburgh council could learn from
other's mistakes, but as I left, they were in the planning stages for
a similar project to get those naster BMXers and skater types out of
Bristo Square (Where if we're perfectly honest, they do little harm)
and move them well out of the centre of town into a far corner of a
park.

Little harm?

It would be a truly tedious place to go and eat your sandwiches if there
were no BMXers there.
--
Ambrose

On 16 Feb 2006 12:58:49 -0800 someone who may be "Jon is Away!"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Shame. I'd like to hope that Edinburgh council could learn from other's
mistakes, but as I left, they were in the planning stages for a similar
project to get those naster BMXers and skater types out of Bristo
Square (Where if we're perfectly honest, they do little harm) and move
them well out of the centre of town into a far corner of a park.

To be fair to the City of Edinburgh Council, they worked with the
skateboarders to develop a plan for a skateboard park in the
Meadows. This was well developed when the NIMBYs stuck an oar in.

The current plan was supposed to be a quicker fix than sorting out
the supposed legal problems with the Meadows.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54