A2 Blackheath - road will be narrowed and a grass shared-use path put in

John Hearns said:

There is a debate on the Lewisham cyclists list at the moment.
There are plans by Transport for London to narrow the carriageway of
the A2 crossing Blackheath, as the "guardians of the heath" wish to
cut down the area of the heath encroached on by the road. The plan is
a very narrow carriageway, a 7.2 metre wide carriageway.
Separate from that will be a 2metre shared use path, covered with
grass.

Dangerous on two points - cyclists squeezed off the road,
then being asked to ride on a grass surface shared with toddlers and
babies in prams. This is a major commuter route in London.

What kind of idiot would design a grass-covered cycle path? It'd be a
mudbath following the first rainfall!

Simon Bennett said:

What kind of idiot would design a grass-covered cycle path? It'd be a
mudbath following the first rainfall!

It has been discussed as part of the CRISP process.
A pedesrian/cycleway composed of submerged pre-cast concrete hard standing
blocks.

BTW, if anyone wants to have some input into this, it is on the agenda at
the Lewisham Cyclist meeting tonight.
http://www.lewishamcyclists.net/images/Gallery/Monthly%20Meetings/MarMM.html

John Hearns said:

Simon Bennett said:

What kind of idiot would design a grass-covered cycle path? It'd be a
mudbath following the first rainfall!

It has been discussed as part of the CRISP process.
A pedesrian/cycleway composed of submerged pre-cast concrete hard standing
blocks.

BTW, if anyone wants to have some input into this, it is on the agenda at
the Lewisham Cyclist meeting tonight.
http://www.lewishamcyclists.net/images/Gallery/Monthly%20Meetings/MarMM.html

John

Are there plan details online anywhere? Can you provide some evidence
that the design is really talking about a grassed path. This is not my
understanding from the correspondence that Roger has been posting to
the LC list but I admit I am not fully clear on the plans. I am
unlikely to be able to make the meeting tonight

best wishes
james

Quoted message said:

John

Are there plan details online anywhere? Can you provide some evidence
that the design is really talking about a grassed path. This is not my
understanding from the correspondence that Roger has been posting to the
LC list but I admit I am not fully clear on the plans.

My wording was a direct quote from the Word document which David Mill sent
to the group on Saturday 11th March. It is his response to the discussions
of the CRISP meeting.

I should make it clear that the grass covering is not TfLs policy.

John Hearns said:

There is a debate on the Lewisham cyclists list at the moment.
There are plans by Transport for London to narrow the carriageway of the
A2 crossing Blackheath, as the "guardians of the heath" wish to cut down
the area of the heath encroached on by the road. The plan is a very narrow
carriageway, a 7.2 metre wide carriageway.
Separate from that will be a 2metre shared use path, covered with grass.

Dangerous on two points - cyclists squeezed off the road,
then being asked to ride on a grass surface shared with toddlers and
babies in prams. This is a major commuter route in London.

This is awful.
How wide is the road now?
What's the speed limit?
Is it LCN+?

2.0 metres is described as 'absolute minimum width' for a shared path
in the London Cycling Design Standards - it should be 3.0m unless
there's a very good reason (e.g. to get between two houses or across a
n existing narrow bridge).

The guardians of the heath should be persuaded that their only options
are 3.0m of tarmac on the heath or leaving the carriageway width at
9.0 to 9.5m. Probably it would be a mistake to ask for a wider
carriageway, or someone will try to squeeze in a bus lane.

Reducing the speed limit to 30, if it's more now, would improve the
heath by reducing traffic noise, and would encourage cyclists onto the
road.

Colin McKenzie

Colin McKenzie said:

This is awful.

Yup.

Quoted message said:

How wide is the road now?

Two lanes, plus a painted-on cycle lane either side. I think 9 metres or
more.

Quoted message said:

What's the speed limit?

30 mph

Quoted message said:

Is it LCN+?

Good question - I think so. There was a CRISP meeting last week.

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:30:09 +0000, John Hearns <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Simon Bennett said:

What kind of idiot would design a grass-covered cycle path? It'd be a
mudbath following the first rainfall!

It has been discussed as part of the CRISP process.
A pedesrian/cycleway composed of submerged pre-cast concrete hard standing
blocks.

BTW, if anyone wants to have some input into this, it is on the agenda at
the Lewisham Cyclist meeting tonight.
http://www.lewishamcyclists.net/images/Gallery/Monthly%20Meetings/MarMM.html

Are these the things that have soil-filled through holes in 'em to
allow grass to grow within, such as:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4921/highwaylayby1jpg4lo.jpg

If so, it's an utterly [censored] idea. I've ridden on such blocks - the
vibration is appalling. Proposing these things as a surface for
utility cycling is an act of weapons-grade idiocy.

Anything other than an MTB with lowish-pressure 2.1" tyres would be
insufferable on such a surface.

A commuter on 27mm slicks or less would be endangering their rims
unless they proceed at a walking pace.

Tim Binns said:

Are these the things that have soil-filled through holes in 'em to
allow grass to grow within, such as:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4921/highwaylayby1jpg4lo.jpg

If so, it's an utterly [censored] idea. I've ridden on such blocks - the
vibration is appalling. Proposing these things as a surface for
utility cycling is an act of weapons-grade idiocy.

Anything other than an MTB with lowish-pressure 2.1" tyres would be
insufferable on such a surface.

A commuter on 27mm slicks or less would be endangering their rims
unless they proceed at a walking pace.

They have them on the cyclepath across the end of Rutland Water dam and
they are bad. Bad on a mountain bike, as you say, even worse on a
commuter bike and sheer hell I would think on a Brompton.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

John Hearns said:

There is a debate on the Lewisham cyclists list at the moment.
There are plans by Transport for London to narrow the carriageway of the
A2 crossing Blackheath, as the "guardians of the heath" wish to cut down
the area of the heath encroached on by the road. The plan is a very narrow
carriageway, a 7.2 metre wide carriageway.
Separate from that will be a 2metre shared use path, covered with grass.

Dangerous on two points - cyclists squeezed off the road,
then being asked to ride on a grass surface shared with toddlers and
babies in prams. This is a major commuter route in London.

Ride on the road then! A grass path is a bad joke.

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There is a debate on the Lewisham cyclists list at the moment.
There are plans by Transport for London to narrow the carriageway of the
A2 crossing Blackheath, as the "guardians of the heath" wish to cut down
the area of the heath encroached on by the road. The plan is a very narrow
carriageway, a 7.2 metre wide carriageway.
Separate from that will be a 2metre shared use path, covered with grass.

Dangerous on two points - cyclists squeezed off the road,
then being asked to ride on a grass surface shared with toddlers and
babies in prams. This is a major commuter route in London.

Also in the discussion, could someone please give me the Department for
Transport figures which say that off-road paths are more dangerous than
cycling on the road? I know this has been discussed here.

I must admit it has been years since I cycled along this road, as opposed to
across, but I'm not convinced it is as bad as you make out.

Most serious cyclist can ride with the traffic as it is flat, lesser cyclist
will already be detered going east by Blackheath hill, which is a b#tch.

So is it really worth worrying about?

Tony Raven said:

They have them on the cyclepath across the end of Rutland Water dam and
they are bad. Bad on a mountain bike, as you say, even worse on a
commuter bike and sheer hell I would think on a Brompton.

We went on an off road 'mountain bike trail' around Alton Water in
Suffolk (owned by Anglian Water). They had some of the best quality
grasscrete I've seen on the top of the dam and it was still the most
physically demanding part of the circuit!

peter

John Hearns said:

A pedesrian/cycleway composed of submerged pre-cast concrete hard standing
blocks.

Ah. Grass crossed with drain-covers and a hint of cobblestones. I'm
sure that will be lovely to cycle on.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:17:24 +0000, John Hearns <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There is a debate on the Lewisham cyclists list at the moment.
There are plans by Transport for London to narrow the carriageway of the
A2 crossing Blackheath, as the "guardians of the heath" wish to cut down
the area of the heath encroached on by the road. The plan is a very narrow
carriageway, a 7.2 metre wide carriageway.
Separate from that will be a 2metre shared use path, covered with grass.

Dangerous on two points - cyclists squeezed off the road,
then being asked to ride on a grass surface shared with toddlers and
babies in prams. This is a major commuter route in London.

Also in the discussion, could someone please give me the Department for
Transport figures which say that off-road paths are more dangerous than
cycling on the road? I know this has been discussed here.

John,

My father is/was chair of the Friends of Blackheath, I will ask him
about the scheme when I next see him. I wonder if he's the "guardian
of the Heath" to which you refer!? "Encroached" is just his sort of
word, and I know he's been on about the A2 for many years. At one
time he suggested putting it in a tunnel - until he discovered that
the ventalation shaft needed would be a blot on the landscape. I know
he had a lot to do with the closure to motor traffic of several roads
across Blackheath, and the grassing over of others.

Personally, I'd have no objection to a segreagted cycle lane alongside
the A2, so long as it had a good surface and the juctions with Goffers
Road and Watt Tyler road westbound and with Hyde Vale, General Wolfe
Road, and Charlton Road eastbound were inteligently designed, with
priority for *all* A2 traffic.

A grass cycle path sounds particularly loony, but a narrowing of the
A2 resulting in a slowing of the traffic may well be good news. The
section between Hyde Vale and General Wolfe Road is particularly wide
with the pedestrian footway used as a police lorry check area on
occasion!
--
Let us have a moment of silence for all Americans who
are now stuck in traffic on their way to a health club
to ride a stationary bicycle. -
Congressman Earl Blumenauer (Oregon)

Simon Bennett said:

What kind of idiot would design a grass-covered cycle path? It'd be a
mudbath following the first rainfall!

Blackheath is never a mudbath. The chalk soil is well drained.
--
Let us have a moment of silence for all Americans who
are now stuck in traffic on their way to a health club
to ride a stationary bicycle. -
Congressman Earl Blumenauer (Oregon)

Tom Crispin said:

My father is/was chair of the Friends of Blackheath

It seems that he has been renegated to 'licensing', whatever that is!

http://www.blackheath.org/home3.htm
--
Let us have a moment of silence for all Americans who
are now stuck in traffic on their way to a health club
to ride a stationary bicycle. -
Congressman Earl Blumenauer (Oregon)

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:17:24 +0000, John Hearns <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There is a debate on the Lewisham cyclists list at the moment.
There are plans by Transport for London to narrow the carriageway of the
A2 crossing Blackheath, as the "guardians of the heath" wish to cut down
the area of the heath encroached on by the road. The plan is a very narrow
carriageway, a 7.2 metre wide carriageway.
Separate from that will be a 2metre shared use path, covered with grass.

Dangerous on two points - cyclists squeezed off the road,
then being asked to ride on a grass surface shared with toddlers and
babies in prams. This is a major commuter route in London.

Also in the discussion, could someone please give me the Department for
Transport figures which say that off-road paths are more dangerous than
cycling on the road? I know this has been discussed here.

I've been on the phone to a couple of people about this proposal.

A couple of points:

1. No one I spoke to knows of any plans to grass the cycle path.
2. Reducing the speed of the motor traffic on the A2 across
Blackheath is a good idea.
3. The number of pedestrians using the path would be tiny; the number
of toddlers and babies in prams on the path would be miniscule (even
if measured per decade).
4. No one I spoke to was aware of the safety issues when a segregated
cycle lane crosses a side road, making a 5-way junction with priority
to motor traffic from any direction.
5. The perception of inexperienced and some leisure cyclists would be
that cycling along the A2 would be safer with a segregated path, and
threfore increase cycle traffic.
6. The current cycle lane from the roundabout to the toucan crossing
is clearly inadequate.

Several years ago the plans were drawn up. At a meeting on Monday the
proposals were thrown into confusion by TFL's Centre for Cycling
Excellence who said they'd prefer an on-road cycle lane. They have a
direct line to Ken Livingstone (spoken in a scornful voice by one of
the people I spoke to).

Tomorrow evening I'll know more when the person who put forward the
proposal for a segregated cycle lane will phone me.
--
Let us have a moment of silence for all Americans who
are now stuck in traffic on their way to a health club
to ride a stationary bicycle. -
Congressman Earl Blumenauer (Oregon)

Tom Crispin said:

I've been on the phone to a couple of people about this proposal.

A couple of points:

1. No one I spoke to knows of any plans to grass the cycle path.

I'm banged to rights here. This was a proposal floated on the Lewisham
cyclists list. I am stirring it a bit here, sorry.

2.

Quoted message said:

Reducing the speed of the motor traffic on the A2 across Blackheath is a
good idea.

Yes, but narrowing the road and getting cyclists off the road isn't going
to do this. Again sorry if this is being put strongly - but I really fail
to see how this road narrowing will either cut the amount of motor traffic
using the road, or slow it down.

John said:

Quoted message said:

I must admit it has been years since I cycled along this road, as opposed
to across, but I'm not convinced it is as bad as you make out.

Most serious cyclist can ride with the traffic as it is flat, lesser
cyclist will already be detered going east by Blackheath hill, which is a
b#tch.

So is it really worth worrying about?

Yes. The proposal is to narrow the carriageway to the width where two
buses or lorries can pass each other, something like 7.2 metres wide,
down from the current 9 metres.

Tom Crispin said:

Personally, I'd have no objection to a segreagted cycle lane alongside the
A2, so long as it had a good surface and the juctions with Goffers Road
and Watt Tyler road westbound and with Hyde Vale, General Wolfe Road, and
Charlton Road eastbound were inteligently designed, with priority for
*all* A2 traffic.

Point taken.