what makes my Giant TCR "noodly"?

could be the drop, bar height seat height relationship, if your bars are high not much weight on the front perhaps, could make for a spooky feel.

maybe provide a side view pic, or measure. if comfortable to lower bars this could make a dif...

yamaha_mike said:

I remember the first time it happened. Kind of cold and wet weather, and I was descending when OMG!

I learned here that the trick for smoothing things out is to bring the knee(s) Just wondering? Thanks.

Not really sure but when I buy a bike I find a hill and at about 35 I take my hands off the bars and slap the head set. If it doesn't dampen the oscillations immediately I return the bike. I am a heavy rider and ride mainly steel with one Ti and Carbon bike. All are good. I have rejected bikes that fail without searching for the reason. I experienced a noodly bike once on a descent going about 55 and never will tolerate that in a bike again. If you are really tall and have a large frame it may be more of a problem. I have seen reasons from wheel alignment, wheel base, frame alignment, etc. Crazy test but it has worked for 50 years. Never dumped a bike doing this

I have a relatively new grey TCR (2005 I think, carbon frame) and an older silver one which I just bought (aluminum, with the old Giant fork).

The old Giant fork ("aero" looking) is pretty flexy and I found I had to be pretty careful over 40 mph to avoid shimmying. I'd recommend getting a stiffer fork. My original yellow Giant (TCR Once model, not sure of year, 1" steerer) had an aluminum steerer "aero" fork. I replaced it with a carbon steerer fork (made it worse) and then immediately replaced it with a Reynolds ouzo-whatever it's called fork. No problems after that. I used my pre-built wheels on that the whole time.

Also make sure your wheels are round and stiff. My old (pre-built) wheels were slightly oval shape and made fast descending scary. I built a set of wheels (box section normal wheels) and felt relatively safe on my silver AL giant even over 50 mph (last month).

I haven't gone over 45-50 mph on the carbon bike so can't vouch for it.

cdr

carpediemracing said:

I have a relatively new grey TCR (2005 I think, carbon frame) and an older silver one which I just bought (aluminum, with the old Giant fork).

The old Giant fork ("aero" looking) is pretty flexy and I found I had to be pretty careful over 40 mph to avoid shimmying. I'd recommend getting a stiffer fork. ... cdr

I finally got around to test riding another bike. The '06 Specialized S-works Roubaix. Just going down the side walk I wondered if I could make it "noodle" like my TCR, so I did the shiver-like motion thru my arms and yes indeed, it too could do the noodle. 😕

Not as much as my Giant though.

Not sure if this is just related to a stiffer bike, a different geometry, or???

Anyway, I took it for a little test ride. Descending with crosswinds was uber stable (even with my Krysium wheels). I think due to a longer wheelbase?

I hadn't thought about changing the fork. Maybe stiffer or a different angle??? New bikes are just so expensive!! I really don't want to put down the $6g right now. 🙁 Thanks for the idea on the fork swap. I'll look into it.

Hypnospin said:

could be the drop, bar height seat height relationship, if your bars are high not much weight on the front perhaps, could make for a spooky feel.

maybe provide a side view pic, or measure. if comfortable to lower bars this could make a dif...

Hard to tell for sure from the photo but it seems like the stem is raised up pretty high with a load of spacers. Just from my own experience I've found I get the wobbles when my stem is raised up higher than normal. Not sure how scientific that is, but it's just my experience.....

Deanster04 said:

Not really sure but when I buy a bike I find a hill and at about 35 I take my hands off the bars and slap the head set. If it doesn't dampen the oscillations immediately I return the bike. I am a heavy rider and ride mainly steel with one Ti and Carbon bike. All are good. I have rejected bikes that fail without searching for the reason. I experienced a noodly bike once on a descent going about 55 and never will tolerate that in a bike again. If you are really tall and have a large frame it may be more of a problem. I have seen reasons from wheel alignment, wheel base, frame alignment, etc. Crazy test but it has worked for 50 years. Never dumped a bike doing this

I own several bikes, a cannondale caad 5,colnago c35, seven odonata and recently purchased a new old stock Giant TCR ZERO with the expensive metallic green fading to a purple hue paint when you look at it from an angle (2002 model?) ....man that paint job is like a custom paint job found only on fast and furious street cars! I am a racing cyclist. Have descended in excess 80kms per hour on my seven odonata with wound up fork...not a shimmy. same goes for the stout CAAD5 bottom bracket area. same goes for the Colnago C35 Ferrari with super stout bottom area. noodly (maybe because the bottom bracket isnt stiff or strong enough for the GIANT TCR old models)
the fork...ah yes..change to a reynolds ouso pro...or a stout wound up...but then again...these forks looks ugly on a BURROWS DESIGNED GIANT! my suggestion is keep the bike if you want it for looks..if not sell it and buy yourself Look KG585 or cannondale...then the noodly problem shall go away.

Having owned several Giant TCRs and having confered the issue with other similar bike owners I can say that Giant TCR composites are quite a bit nodly decenders. The problem lies with the lightweight front end. Apparently TCR geometry makes the rider to sit further back which aggrevates the problem at the front. The problem may be alleviated with a better weight distribution to the front. I also noticed that heavier wheels minimized the problem as well altho not eradicate it.

Also if you are brave enough, try descending ala Greg Lemond where he grips the bars from his waist and his upper body far forward over the front wheels.

I also think Greg was the best descender ever.

carpediemracing said:

The old Giant fork ("aero" looking) is pretty flexy and I found I had to be pretty careful over 40 mph to avoid shimmying. I'd recommend getting a stiffer fork. My original yellow Giant (TCR Once model, not sure of year, 1" steerer) had an aluminum steerer "aero" fork. I replaced it with a carbon steerer fork (made it worse) and then immediately replaced it with a Reynolds ouzo-whatever it's called fork. No problems after that. I used my pre-built wheels on that the whole time.
cdr

I have a 2001 TCR2. I had shimmy problems with the original "aero" fork. The fork is flimsy and the geometry is questionable. I switched to the Reynolds Ouzo Pro and now the bike won't shimmy even when I try. I don't remember the exact geometry of the Ouzo fork, but it is definitely a little more conservative and noticibly stiffer. I think the fork looks better than the original too.

hd reynolds said:

...The problem lies with the lightweight front end. Apparently TCR geometry makes the rider to sit further back which aggrevates the problem at the front. The problem may be alleviated with a better weight distribution to the front. I also noticed that heavier wheels minimized the problem as well altho not eradicate it...

That makes sense. On sunny days I mostly just let her rip since I can't really steer my TCR. It's more of a look and lean maneuver.

Being wet and cold out inhibits my "let her rip" technique and I stay sitting back further. Knee to the top tube seems to be the best stopgap. I test rode a s-works roubaix and it was point and go stable.

I did find a "too good to be true" price on E-bay but 🙄 locally it cost $5 so I'm kind of holding out.

yamaha_mike said:

I remember the first time it happened. Kind of cold and wet weather, and I was descending when OMG!

I learned here that the trick for smoothing things out is to bring the knee(s) into the top tube. And avoid death grips 🙄

Both of which I try to do and really don't experience "the noodle" anymore. I kind of thought it was just me, but there are reviews and other riders have expressed their concerns with a noodly bike. I mostly have it in control, but still, descending -- especially with crosswinds -- is a precise experience.

So I am wondering what it is from: Wheel base? Rake?

For example, the reviews I have been reading rave how the Roubaix is uber stable. It's wheelbase is 1000 and it's rake 49mm. The racey brother offered by Specialized, the Tarmac, shares the same geometry as my Giant: with a wheelbase of 978 and a 45mm rake.

Not one review I have come across drools over the Tarmac being stable. Light, climbs like a goat, all that yada yada yada, but not the compliments of stability which bestow the Roubaix.

Just wondering? Thanks.

I have a new TCR 0. If you get it over 50, it is a trip. I found that freaking out generally will force you into over-correcting, thereby increasing the wobble.

I have subsequently managed to rely more on body leaning than bar inputs at speed. I have no idea if it is better or worse than other bikes, with the exception of an old steel Masi I ride in the rain. The Masi is a truck, and would probably handle 70 mph. But I would take the advantage of the carbon bike, overall, any day.

Hi

I'm riding a TCR advanced team and don't have any problems with noodling.
I think it definitely a combination of the fork stiffness and short wheel base/weight distribution.The advance has a fork design which is a straight, also looks like the rake could be less ?

this is a quote from cycling news :

"The frame also features a new Advanced fork. Giant's objective was to "keep the same lateral comfort as the current design but to enhance the lateral rigidity". They have managed to achieve their objectives and also keep the weight down to a claimed 350 grams."

I wonder if you should try and get these forks as they would be well matched to the TCR's frame geometry. It would be interesting to see how the T-Mobile pro's handle the noodling issue on their team bikes, given that were all saying its a geometry problem with the Giants.

Regards
Ken

Versabar said:

I have a new TCR 0. If you get it over 50, it is a trip. I found that freaking out generally will force you into over-correcting, thereby increasing the wobble.

I have subsequently managed to rely more on body leaning than bar inputs at speed. I have no idea if it is better or worse than other bikes, with the exception of an old steel Masi I ride in the rain. The Masi is a truck, and would probably handle 70 mph. But I would take the advantage of the carbon bike, overall, any day.

Read somewhere that speed wobble is primarily due to a frame that's not stiff enough in the vertical plane, ie, excessive torsional flex between the headtube and the seattube. Something starts a slight oscillation, where your body weight is moving side to side, causing you to automatically feed back steering corrections to keep the bike in a straight line. If the resonant frequency and damping of the frame are low, then the wobble quickly increases to the scary point.

Does anybody know the fork rake on the TCR? I have a 2005 TCR Zero. I'm going to swap the fork out, as I've also found it to be a bit too flexy. Thinking either Ouzo Pro or Alpha Q GS10.

I have an 05 TCR 2 composite. Same frame as the 0, 1 & 3. It's stock with full ultegra except for the wheels and stem.

I have the XL and have never experienced noodling, wobbling or other problems with the ride when hurtling downhill in excess of 50 MPH. What size is yours?

Perhaps it's the setup. I'd check and re-check headset, stem looseness, wheels etc.

Not sure if you're addressing me or the OP, but I have a XL. Not really stock anymore (wheels, cranks, bars, stem). The bike's been checked through top to bottom many times, so I don't think it's a setup issue. There's definitely a lot of flex in the fork. Many that I've talked to agree. Try this: Stand over your front wheel, so that you're facing the saddle. Grab the front brake, put your hands on the top of the hoods, and push down hard a few times, or try twisting the bars/stem. I guarantee you'll see excessive flex.

.. twas more the OP. But since you brought it up, what does a flexy bike/fork do? Does this matter to the average recreational cyclist? Does it matter more if you race? If so, why? If you don't race, but like to go hard for exercise and personal challenge(s), does it matter?

I see people throwing that word around a lot. I suppose I haven't experienced it .. or maybe I have and just haven't noticed. If by flex you mean, that the material gives a wee bit under pressure, is that not normal. Heck, don't you want it to do that rather than just snap?

Please educate .. (open to anyone).

I don't know about others, but I definitely notice the flex. Most of all, I feel it in descents, at high speeds, which is discomforting. I've had moments where the flex and rebound have forced me and my bike off my line, along with what I'll call speed wobbles (oscillations through the front and back of the frame to the wheels). One such incident of this may have been a significant contributing factor in a recent crash of mine. I can't remember exactly what happened, so I can't say for sure, other than my bike went into a major "tank slapper".

I do agree that some flex is by design and has a useful purpose. That's why I said excessive flex, rather than just flex. As for flexing versus snapping, I'll just take doesn't flex and doesn't snap, please.

If any bike is vibrating at high downhill speeds, then there usually is something not aligned properly. I have a 64 cm Fuji Roubaix (aluminium) that would vibrate subtly, but only noticeably if I was at 23+mph on a slight downhill and "trying" to go freehand; some research revealed that 1. the frame design doesn't lend itself well to going freehand 2. headset had begun to wear (I had owned the bike brand new for a year before I was bold enough to try freehanding and noticing the issue).

I am sure that for any problem that may seem to be endemic to a frame model, you can always find a contrary example, as in this case. Before I go on, I'm in no way suggesting that you are not noticing .. "flex." I just want to be sure we are calling a spade a spade ..

Vibration/wobbling at speed is not flex. It IS a problem and it usually has a fixable source. Some [elastic] give under higher-than-normal force (pedaling hard out of the saddle or hard going up a hill, for example) IS flex. Too much of it and I suppose you could argue that it's robbing you of efficient power transfer to the drivetrain.

But let's think about it for a second, when going downhill, the bike will arguably see less force (than, say powering hard for a sprint or labored climbing); for all intensive purposes, even if you are pedaling, you are putting much less pressure on the frame with each stroke .. so it is unlikely that you will experience the same "flex" or bending of the frame. But if the bike is wobbling (kinda like when your car alignment is off, or when your tires need rotation or when your car tire air pressures are not equalized), then something is amiss.

So, just for clarity, is it "flex" or wobble?

You know, it could be too that the heavier you are, the less you will see this problem and maybe the fork IS that .. "flexy." Me, I'm 190 - 195 @ 6'3"; perhaps a lighter person will not be able to .. er, absorb the said wobble/flex/vibration. Does your fork have a suspension of some sort in it? I'm asking because maybe I need to start worrying about my fork as it is the stock fork on this TCR C2.

Good discussion, I think.

I have the TCR C2 and have been down hills at 80km/h and have never had a speed wobble. In fact I tried to make it wobble and still couldn't make it happen. Now, don't get me wrong, the front end flex wasn't expected to be so much but getting over the initial "shock" wasn't that hard after realizing how smooth she was....I was worried about the wobble in the beginning but have since forgotten about it...whatever the source, I hope you find the answer.