Best place to jump into Boston

(Ken) said:

NOTE: If you want to debate the ethics of banditry please do it on another thread! That said...

For someone who wants to run along with the other bandits for 12 or 13 miles which option is least
disruptive, most fun and easiest to execute:
- start in Hopington at the rear (with the other illegals) or
- jump in a mile or two from the start

I'd go with Hopkinton. If you jump in a mile or two from the start you're still fighting crowds. It
would be easier to jump in from either 8 or so miles. Hey you might as well make sure you include
Wellslian (half way) and Heartbreak hills.

my $0.02 Andy

Ken at said:

NOTE: If you want to debate the ethics of banditry please do it on another thread! That said...

For someone who wants to run along with the other bandits for 12 or 13 miles which option is least
disruptive, most fun and easiest to execute:
- start in Hopington at the rear (with the other illegals) or
- jump in a mile or two from the start

Jump in with the other illegals in the rear of the pack at the start--you'll be more tolerated there
and have easier access from what I've seen in years past.

You can run to Wellesley College at mile 12 and bail out in Wellesley Center a mile or so further
on pretty easily. If you want to try to start a little later, though, try jumping in around mile
4 in Ashland (near the clock tower) and then bail out at the T station (which might make your
life easier if you're heading downtown to see the finish) between mile 16 and 17, just before the
chain of hills.

See you there! Just don't take "my" gatorade from the fluid stations, ok?
:-)

--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam

George Grattan

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For someone who wants to run along with the other bandits for 12 or 13

miles which option is least disruptive, most fun and easiest to execute:
- start in Hopington at the rear (with the other illegals) or
- jump in a mile or two from the start <<

I was a bandit in 1996 and started in Hopkinton. I had friends drive me to the bus place and it
worked out well.

Mike

My recommendation would be about 3 feet in front of the lead car. Get your qualifier and pay like
everybody else jerk. Andy Hass

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My recommendation would be about 3 feet in front of the lead car. Get your qualifier and pay like
everybody else jerk. Andy Hass

Before you go calling people jerks The Boston Athletic Association has allowed bandits to run their
race since before you were running in a diaper.

Ergo not *everybody* has paid who starts and/or finishes.

When you become the director of the Boston Athletic Association you can dispose of all the rules you
don't like.

Andy

amh said:

Before you go calling people jerks The Boston Athletic Association has allowed bandits to run
their race since before you were running in a diaper.

Andy, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I had read somewhere in the history of Boston, that
because it's a local celebration of Patriot's Day, it *is* a prime local event. Having *locals* run
also (aka banditing) is a part of their celebration, or at least I got that impression. It just
happens that the race has acquired a magical lure over the years for road runners, and people
outside Boston start feeling a little ... possessive, or something. But my memory may be incorrect.

I think George G. is a local (or at least nearby) and may be able to share a local's version of
Boston, having both watched it and run it now.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot at dot.h@#att.net said:

I think George G. is a local (or at least nearby) and may be able to share a local's version of
Boston, having both watched it and run it now.

I think there's three things at work here with regard to people's responses about Boston
and bandits:

1) Serious runners work very hard, for years and years, in some cases, to qualify for this race, the
only major race of its stature I'm aware of with those requirements. Such folks are
understandably very proud of having done so, and thus understandably somewhat less likely to
gladly suffer the fools bandits can sometimes be than they might be at other races.

2) The BAA makes about 1,000 spaces or so every year open to official but non-qualified charity
runners (such as myself). This blurs the line a bit further between bandits and qualifieds in the
eyes of all concerned.

3) There is, as you say, an deep and much-celebrated tradition of local (especially area college
students) banditing in Boston. (There's also a strong tradition of friends and family jumping in
for long distances--raising the question of just when one becomes a bandit--3 miles? 6? 14?-- as
opposed to a friend lending moral support for a bit.)

Bandits are part of the charm of Boston, imo as both a spectator and (charity) runner. To my
knowledge, they tend to jump in at the back of the pack and know to do so. The course is so well
staffed that there's simply no question that they're stealing resources from any other runner--
anyone who suggests otherwise is being foolish and knows nothing about the job the BAA does every
year. I'm sure individual bandits have been jerks over the years, but I've never seen it happen and
have never heard of it from any friends who run as qualifieds/charity cases. For my part, this year,
I saw some pretty damn obnoxious (and potentially dangerous) behavior from a few qualified runners
this year, not from any bandits. I don't think being a bandit in this particular race is
automatically a "bad act" as the ethicists say.

--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam

George Grattan

The BAA does NOT allow anyone to bandit that race... Ask them yourself. And yes, you are still a
jerk. Andy Hass

amh said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My recommendation would be about 3 feet in front of the lead car. Get your qualifier and pay like
everybody else jerk. Andy Hass

Quoted message said:

Before you go calling people jerks The Boston Athletic Association has allowed bandits to run
their race since before you were running in a diaper.

Quoted message said:

Ergo not *everybody* has paid who starts and/or finishes.

Quoted message said:

When you become the director of the Boston Athletic Association you can dispose of all the rules
you don't like.

Quoted message said:

Andy

Hi Dot, The BAA put qualifying standards on the race because the narrow parameters of the course
limit the number of people they feel can safely partake in the event. If they wanted
non-participants joining in, why would they bother with having entry standards? The celebration of
the event may be a local holiday, but the entry standards (and fee) apply to everyone, local or not.
Locals are welcome to meet the standard and get in too...in fact, they have an advantage since it is
much easier for locals to get charity slots. So locals have the easiest time getting in without
meeting the standard (ie charity). One of my friends found this out herself a couple years back.

Andy Hass Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

amh said:

Before you go calling people jerks The Boston Athletic Association has allowed bandits to run
their race since before you were running in a diaper.

Quoted message said:

Andy, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I had read somewhere in the history of Boston, that
because it's a local celebration of Patriot's Day, it *is* a prime local event. Having *locals*
run also (aka banditing) is a part of their celebration, or at least I got that impression. It
just happens that the race has acquired a magical lure over the years for road runners, and people
outside Boston start feeling a little ... possessive, or something. But my memory may be
incorrect.

Quoted message said:

I think George G. is a local (or at least nearby) and may be able to share a local's version of
Boston, having both watched it and run it now.

Quoted message said:

Dot

Quoted message said:

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Quoted message said:

The BAA does NOT allow anyone to bandit that race... Ask them yourself.

Andy, this is simply NOT true! They have a separate starting place at the back expressly for that.
Rather than try to police the bandits and create a publicity mess, they stack them at the back where
they will do the least harm. Will they publicly advertise come and run as a bandit, of course not
this gets into an insurance quagmire if not bad precedence. They know from year to year roughly the
number of bandits and don't give a damn if you use the aid stations.

To bandit or not is another issue and no, I have never run it illegally.

--
Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" - B. McKibben Doug Freese
[email hidden]

George Grattan said:

Bandits are part of the charm of Boston, imo as both a spectator and (charity) runner.

George, thanks for the clarification. That's consistent with what I read previously, but don't
always know how reliable things that I pick up on web are.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

I understand your view George, but they're still taking advantage of a course that is closed off to
traffic and maintained by the entry fees paid by other people. I have seen many bandits taking water
from aid stations and such as well, so they do use resources even if those resources are not
limiting due to the good job of the BAA. It is therefor a disrespectful act. Charity runners are NOT
bandits, never heard them referred to as such though I know some people don't like them (they're out
of the way in the back though anyways!). Andy Hass

George Grattan said:

on 4/22/03 12:49 PM, Dot at dot.h@#att.net wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think George G. is a local (or at least nearby) and may be able to share a local's version of
Boston, having both watched it and run it now.

I think there's three things at work here with regard to people's responses about Boston and
bandits:

Quoted message said:

1) Serious runners work very hard, for years and years, in some cases, to qualify for this race,
the only major race of its stature I'm aware of with those requirements. Such folks are
understandably very proud of having done so, and thus understandably somewhat less likely to
gladly suffer the fools bandits can sometimes be than they might be at other races.

Quoted message said:

2) The BAA makes about 1,000 spaces or so every year open to official but non-qualified charity
runners (such as myself). This blurs the line a bit further between bandits and qualifieds in
the eyes of all concerned.

Quoted message said:

3) There is, as you say, an deep and much-celebrated tradition of local (especially area college
students) banditing in Boston. (There's also a strong tradition of friends and family jumping
in for long distances--raising the question of just when one becomes a bandit--3 miles? 6?
14?-- as opposed to a friend lending moral support for a bit.)

Quoted message said:

Bandits are part of the charm of Boston, imo as both a spectator and (charity) runner. To my
knowledge, they tend to jump in at the back of the pack and know to do so. The course is so well
staffed that there's simply no question that they're stealing resources from any other runner--
anyone who suggests otherwise is being foolish and knows nothing about the job the BAA does every
year. I'm sure individual bandits have been jerks over the years, but I've never seen it happen
and have never heard of it from any friends who run as qualifieds/charity cases. For my part, this
year, I saw some pretty damn obnoxious (and potentially dangerous) behavior from a few qualified
runners this year, not from any bandits. I don't think being a bandit in this particular race is
automatically a "bad act" as the ethicists say.

Quoted message said:

--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam

Quoted message said:

George Grattan

at said:

The BAA does NOT allow anyone to bandit that race... Ask them yourself.

The BAA, in fact, does a pretty graceful job of pretending to look the other way while at the same
time actually facilitating some bandits. They set up a separate corral for them behind every other
corral at the start, for example, and they don't generally police the other corrals below a certain
bib number to prevent folks from jumping in there with friends, though they certainly don't
encourage it, either.

My impression from BAA folks I've talked to is that they have a pretty good idea of how many bandits
they're going to get each year, they recognize the appeal, and they plan accordingly. They seem to
feel it's a lot easier doing things this way than any other-- though, obviously, enough people
abusing their good graces would undoubtedly change that.

--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam

George Grattan

Quoted message said:

The BAA does NOT allow anyone to bandit that race... Ask them yourself. And yes, you are still a
jerk. Andy Hass

Well of course they aren't going to announce to the world that running as a bandit is permitted. How
many people do you think they want running it. Many a case of beer has been wagered over whether or
not a frat buddy from BC can finish the marathon. The organizers tolerate it because they realize it
is good PR for the locals.

My finish line photo from 1990 shows two bandit runners finishing right in front of me. I'll scan it
for you if you like, but you're going to need a magnifying glass cause it is only the proof.

I believe name calling is a sign of over training. Please, you're smarter than using "You're a jerk"
as an argument.

Andy (wearing my Boston t-shirt as I type this)

at said:

I understand your view George, but they're still taking advantage of a course that is closed off
to traffic and maintained by the entry fees paid by other people.

That's certainly true, of course. Banditing is, on the face of it, wrong.

Having said that, I think there are contexts and degrees involved, and the BAA seems to think so
too, judging from their policies and their enforcement of their policies.

Quoted message said:

Charity runners are NOT bandits, never heard them referred to as such though I know some people
don't like them (they're out of the way in the back though anyways!).

Well, *I* certainly was. :-) (FYI: it's my understanding that a significant portion of charity
runners at Boston are *also* qualified runners, another local "tradition" of sorts.)

--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam

George Grattan

Doug Freese said:

Andy, this is simply NOT true! They have a separate starting place at the back expressly for that.
Rather than try to police the bandits and create a publicity mess, they stack them at the back
where they will do the least harm. Will they publicly advertise come and run as a bandit, of
course not this gets into an insurance quagmire if not bad precedence. They know from year to year
roughly the number of bandits and don't give a damn if you use the aid stations.

Quoted message said:

To bandit or not is another issue and no, I have never run it illegally.
--
Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" - B. McKibben Doug Freese
[email hidden]

---That's a new fact for me, Doug, thanks. However, it still doesn't change whether it's right or
not IMO. Andy Hass

Quoted message said:

However, it still doesn't change whether it's right or not IMO.

I agree on this point. What makes this Boston difficult is the quiet acceptance. In general, if the
RD allows bandits then there isn't much we can say although we can choose not to run and support the
race. Those races where the RD does not allow bandits, and this is 99% of most races, the little
thrifty sneaks should be hung with their shoe laces by some sensitive part of their anatomy.

--
Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" - B. McKibben Doug Freese
[email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

Andy, this is simply NOT true! They have a separate starting place at the back expressly for
that. Rather than try to police the bandits and create a publicity mess, they stack them at the
back where they will do the least harm. Will they publicly advertise come and run as a bandit,
of course not this gets into an insurance quagmire if not bad precedence. They know from year to
year roughly the number of bandits and don't give a damn if you use the aid stations.

Quoted message said:

To bandit or not is another issue and no, I have never run it illegally.
--
Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" - B. McKibben Doug Freese
[email hidden]

---That's a new fact for me, Doug, thanks. However, it still doesn't change whether it's right or
not IMO. Andy Hass

Thats what I was telling you all along. What's Doug got that I don't?

Andy

amh said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

Andy, this is simply NOT true! They have a separate starting place at the back expressly for
that. Rather than try to police the bandits and create a publicity mess, they stack them at the
back where they will do the least harm. Will they publicly advertise come and run as a bandit,
of course not this gets into an insurance quagmire if not bad precedence. They know from year
to year roughly the number of bandits and don't give a damn if you use the aid stations.

Quoted message said:

To bandit or not is another issue and no, I have never run it illegally.
--
Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" - B. McKibben Doug Freese
[email hidden]

---That's a new fact for me, Doug, thanks. However, it still doesn't change whether it's right or
not IMO. Andy Hass

Quoted message said:

Thats what I was telling you all along. What's Doug got that I don't?

Quoted message said:

Andy

--- A more thorough description....and he wasn't trying to justify it, just add more info. Andy
Hass