new bike

Alan Moffatt said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a respected
frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride position is spot on,
but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike upright when sat on the
saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that I
usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you think
the builder has let her down?

Um, no. All my bikes are set up like this, as it is the only way to get
a high enough saddle position such that the knees are not bent at the
bottom of the pedal stroke, which can be both painful and inefficient.
If she can grasp the nettle and learn to live with it, she will cycle
further for less pain and effort. Failing that:

<postironic sexist mode>
tell her her bum looks better with the saddle higher
</postironic sexist mode>

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

Alan Moffatt said:

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you think
the builder has let her down?

If the riding position is "perfect", her leg should be almost straight
at the bottom of the pedal stroke. Assuming this is so, and assuming
there is a reasonable amount of clearance between the ground and the
pedal at the bottom of its stroke (a desirable safety feature), it
/should/ be impossible to touch the ground with both feet while in the
saddle.

You shouldn't need to be able to put both feet on the ground while
riding along anyway - unless you have a catastrophic failure of both
brakes.

d.

Alan Moffatt said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a respected
frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride position is spot on,
but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike upright when sat on the
saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that I
usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you think
the builder has let her down?

No, I doubt it. She should be able to put a toe down either side and
hold the bike at a slight angle of lean. She's probably never had a
bike so correctly set up before, and it will take a little getting used
to. Depending on the frame angles there might also be an overlap
between her toes and the front wheel which she will have to be aware of
when starting off and riding at walking pace.

--
Dave...

Quoted message said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a
respected frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride
position is spot on, but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike
upright when sat on the saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that
I usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you
think the builder has let her down?

If the ride position really is perfect, then no problem. On all my bikes I
can only just put the tips of both toes down, and I've got big feet. To
put a foot flat on the ground I have to lean the bike over to one side.

The reason for this is less chance of pedal strike when leaning into a
corner or going over rough ground. Also makes you that extra few inches
higher - good for seeing over cars.

If partner really really doesn't like it then you can always lower the
saddle - compromises the riding position but hey-ho.

Jim Price said:

Alan Moffatt said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a respected
frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate...

Quoted message said:

<postironic sexist mode>
tell her her bum looks better with the saddle higher
</postironic sexist mode>

Never mind that, JPEGs! You know where to take them :-)
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

I wouldn't expect to be able to put both feet down, but I can always hold
the bike up from the saddle if I have to with one leg.

Jim, it can't be the *only* way to set up a bike; my knee is not bent at the
bottom of the pedal stroke, but I can still touch the ground with one foot
[toe], if I have to.

How far can you play with variables such as crank length, wheel size, frame
size to achieve this if you really want to. Should we consider plastic
surgery?

Alan

"davek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan Moffatt said:

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you
think
the builder has let her down?

If the riding position is "perfect", her leg should be almost straight
at the bottom of the pedal stroke. Assuming this is so, and assuming
there is a reasonable amount of clearance between the ground and the
pedal at the bottom of its stroke (a desirable safety feature), it
/should/ be impossible to touch the ground with both feet while in the
saddle.

You shouldn't need to be able to put both feet on the ground while
riding along anyway - unless you have a catastrophic failure of both
brakes.

d.

Alan Moffatt said:

I wouldn't expect to be able to put both feet down, but I can always hold
the bike up from the saddle if I have to with one leg.

I can just get the tips of the toes on one foot to the ground if I lean
my bike slightly to the side. But I'm used to it - I've had this bike
for over 15 years.

This could be a good excuse for her to learn the art of the trackstand.

Quoted message said:

How far can you play with variables such as crank length, wheel size, frame
size to achieve this if you really want to.

Wheel size is not something you can change easily as there are other
factors to be considered such as brakes. Changing the crank length
won't make much difference to being able to put the feet down as the
key measurement is the height of the bottom bracket from the ground.
It's likely the bottom bracket was lower on her old bike. I don't see
how you could change this without getting an entirely new frame. But it
might be a good idea to speak directly to the framebuilder - if it's a
steel frame, it's /possible/ he may be able to make some adjustments.

Quoted message said:

Should we consider plastic
surgery?

Only if she is /really/ ugly. ;-)

d.

Alan Moffatt said:

I wouldn't expect to be able to put both feet down, but I can always hold
the bike up from the saddle if I have to with one leg.

Jim, it can't be the *only* way to set up a bike; my knee is not bent at the
bottom of the pedal stroke, but I can still touch the ground with one foot
[toe], if I have to.

Ah, you'll be one of those people who like their heel quite low at the
bottom of the pedal stroke. If I pedal with any degree of power like
that, my left ankle won't hold together, so I put the saddle up and have
my toes pointing slightly down at the bottom of the pedal stroke. Hence
the only bike I have where I can put my feet on the floor while sitting
on the saddle is the recumbent. The angle of the foot at the bottom of
the pedal stroke is a matter of personal taste.

Quoted message said:

How far can you play with variables such as crank length, wheel size, frame
size to achieve this if you really want to. Should we consider plastic
surgery?

Whatever variables you play with, it will come down to a compromise
between the optimum riding position and how easy it is to get your foot
on the floor. The only thing which can help a tiny bit is to make sure
you use as thin a pedal as possible (but its unlikely to make more than
1cm difference).

I have had positive comments along the lines of me looking "at one with
my bike" when I pull up to a stop and seamlessly slip off the saddle
(its that or fall over).

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

Jim Price said:

I have had positive comments along the lines of me looking "at one with
my bike" when I pull up to a stop and seamlessly slip off the saddle
(its that or fall over).

I've had applause when I've gone a whole phase of the lights without
putting my foot down. (If I do it in front of my clubmates I just get
called a smartarse.)

Of course, I have also fallen off a couple of times when attempting
this...

d.

davek said:

Jim Price said:

I have had positive comments along the lines of me looking "at one with
my bike" when I pull up to a stop and seamlessly slip off the saddle
(its that or fall over).

All my bikes have required getting off the saddle to put feet on the
floor. Now I have a Birdy I am having to figure out how to stand on
one leg and keep the bike upright rather than lazily sitting on the
top tube.

Quoted message said:

I've had applause when I've gone a whole phase of the lights without
putting my foot down. (If I do it in front of my clubmates I just get
called a smartarse.)

BTDTBTTS. Of course the lights always change two seconds after you
bale out of an unsteady trackstand. :-(

Quoted message said:

Of course, I have also fallen off a couple of times when attempting
this...

I've never fallen off whilst attempting a trackstand. There was an
East German sprint champion who used to practice falling off on the
velodrome -- well he actually practiced going as slow as possible with
obvious consequences when he did it at the top of the banking.

--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

"Alan Moffatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a
respected frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride position
is spot on, but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike upright when
sat on the saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that I
usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you think
the builder has let her down?

No, I don't think the builder has let her down. On my bikes it's only my
toetips that touch the ground if I'm on the saddle. For a foot to be flat on
the gorund and me still be on the saddle, I have to lean the bike to one
side a bit. That's as it should be. If her feet are on the ground, the
saddle is too low.

Cheers, helen s

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan Moffatt said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a
respected
frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride position is spot
on,
but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike upright when sat on the
saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that I
usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you
think
the builder has let her down?

No, I doubt it. She should be able to put a toe down either side and
hold the bike at a slight angle of lean. [ ]

Yes, that's what I expected, but it leans too much. If she doesn't slide off
the saddle in time, she goes over.

Does everybody always slide forward when stopping?

Alan

"Mark Thompson"
<pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a
respected frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride
position is spot on, but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike
upright when sat on the saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that
I usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you
think the builder has let her down?

If the ride position really is perfect, then no problem. On all my bikes
I
can only just put the tips of both toes down, and I've got big feet. To
put a foot flat on the ground I have to lean the bike over to one side.
[ ]

Just a big toe would do, but not even that :{

wafflycat said:

No, I don't think the builder has let her down. On my bikes it's only my
toetips that touch the ground if I'm on the saddle. For a foot to be flat on
the gorund and me still be on the saddle, I have to lean the bike to one
side a bit. That's as it should be. If her feet are on the ground, the
saddle is too low.

I'd be inclined to agree - only one foot can be got down comfortably
from a correct-height saddle. Being able to completely straighten you
leg at bottomm dead centre does make a real difference to performance,
I found this by accident, I'd adjusted my old MTB to enable me to ride
in my New Rock boots (for non-Goths, these are huge boots with solid
rubber soles at least 2" thick and lots of shiny metalwork on), and
then one day found myself going to Tesco in basketball boots (thin
soles like plimsoles). My legs were going dead straight at BDC and the
improvement to the ride was very noticable.

Btw, New Rocks are exellent town cycling boots. The threat of you're
being able to kick seven shades of hell out of their precious metalwork
using something that looks like it weighs several tonnes and is tipped
with steel does make taxi-drivers keep their distance when overtaking.
🙂

Alan Moffatt said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a
respected frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride
position is spot on, but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike
upright when sat on the saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that
I usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you
think the builder has let her down?

No, and if its the builder who put my nice new audax bike together, they set
the saddle at the high end of the range of acceptable for your body/leg
size. Their logic is that if they were to set it in the middle, and you
then wanted it a tad higher, you may end up with some minor scuff/scratch
marks at the base of the seat post, thus spoiling that shiny new bike
immaculate finish.

Try the bike for a bit, and if the hips are not rocking whilst riding, its
probably right.

However, if not totally happy, contact the builder. The one I used I am
certain would discuss the issue, and sort it out if necessary; either by
advice over the phone, or a trip back to the premises if necessary.

When I got my new bike it felt strange compared to my old standard tourer -
seat higher by a fair bit, bars stretched further away.
After 100 miles on the new one, I decided that yes, the builder really was
right, and have now moved the seat, handlebars, swapped stem, etc. on the
old one to bring it closer to the new. That's improved the old bike as well.

I can only just touch the ground on my bikes from teh saddle, and only one
side at a time. I have no difficulty just coming forward from the saddle if
required and standing on the ground, or lean the bike a bit to reach one
sided, or stop beside a kerb (or higher verge round here, kerbs are for
urban sissies).

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Phil Cook said:

BTDTBTTS. Of course the lights always change two seconds after you
bale out of an unsteady trackstand. :-(

Two seconds... I dream of that world. If I ever have to bail out of a
trackstand (Relatively frequent at the minute, I'm trying to learn "wheel
left" instead of "wheel right"!) the lights change as my foot hits the
floor. Allowing for the time taken to regain balance and be ready to move
off, I've either lost my pole position at the lights, or someone is
beeping me!

Quoted message said:

I've never fallen off whilst attempting a trackstand. There was an
East German sprint champion who used to practice falling off on the
velodrome -- well he actually practiced going as slow as possible with
obvious consequences when he did it at the top of the banking.

I've not fallen off, but I have managed some rather unwieldy dismounts -
One foot of the pedal (Usually the back one), hands too far from the brake
lever to stop the inevitable movement of the bike, unbalanced panniers
tilt bike and I have to stand it upright with one foor clipped in (And the
traffic moving around me!).

Jon

Alan Moffatt' of said:

My partner has recently collected her first handbuilt bike from a respected
frame builder. It is absolutely immaculate and the ride position is spot on,
but she can't touch the ground to hold the bike upright when sat on the
saddle.

I've never had a bike set up like this and I think I would find it as
disconcerting as she sometimes does, although I've been noticing that I
usually slide forward off the saddle anyway when coming to a stop.

She never thought to ask "And will my feet touch the ground?" Do you think
the builder has let her down?

No, sounds like the builder has done a good job. I have never had a bike
where I could touch the ground from the saddle. My observation is that the
geometry of bikes is such that long legged people can touch the ground,
shorter ones can't. May well be to do with foot length.

Being only just over 5 feet short, I have short legs. If I set my saddle at
a position low enough that I can touch the ground while sat on it, pedalling
is uncomfortable, feels like sitting in an armchair. The usual method for
setting saddle height (heel on pedal at 6 o'clock leaves leg slightly bent)
keeps my feet well off the ground, even on a frame I had made to fit me. I
can't even get one toetip to touch the ground in my preferred position.
--
Steph Peters
Chorlton Wanderers Cycling Group
Monthly slow and easy rides from South Manchester
http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/cycling/chwan.htm

Jon Senior said:

Phil Cook said:

BTDTBTTS. Of course the lights always change two seconds after you
bale out of an unsteady trackstand. :-(

Two seconds... I dream of that world. If I ever have to bail out of a
trackstand (Relatively frequent at the minute, I'm trying to learn "wheel
left" instead of "wheel right"!) the lights change as my foot hits the
floor.

Maybe you are right. It's a bit like when driving the car, the moment
you put the handbrake on and take it out of gear...

As for wheel left, I figured it was a skill I was unlikely to need
since in the UK the road camber runs uphill to the right 99 per cent
of the time. I used to hold a trackstand with back pressure on the
fixed when I came across a left slope, on the free I just hope for the
lights to change or give up :-)
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Alan Moffatt said:

Yes, that's what I expected, but it leans too much. If she doesn't slide off
the saddle in time, she goes over.

Does everybody always slide forward when stopping?

No. Sometimes I just fall over for the hell of it.

Standing on the ground is a most unnatural way to ride a bicycle. The
essential thing when standing on the ground is to ensure there is
enough space above the cross bar to stand comfortably.

Riding a bike, which is hopefully what one does most of the time when
in contact with ones velo, is best done with the saddle at the right
height for efficient comfortable pedalling.

These two do conflict, so to prevent an unintended reorientation from
the vertical plane, standing on the pedal when starting or stopping and
moving ones bum on and off the saddle is the way to go.

...d