Substitute for coumadin?

In article <[email hidden]>, sl4333
@bendnet.com says...

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin? This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

One point I'm making here is that there would be exact adherence to the
diet, regardless of quantities of certain things, so that the general
clotting ability would stay about the same all the time.

Kramer <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin?

No.

Quoted message said:

This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

The next TIA may very well be a full blown stroke without coumadin anticoagulation.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com

Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:58:00 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Kramer

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin? This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

Why he wants to replace coumadin (warfarin)? There are other
anticoagulants of course, but they may have their own problems, too.
I've been prescribed low molecular weight heparin (Fragmin) as
precautionary measure before and after surgical operations, but it has
to be delivered by subcutaneous injection. Aspirin is also an
anticoagulant, but it probably (?) has not been proven in your friend's
condition. There may be some studies (or a study) comparing warfarin and
aspirin for some condition, perhaps someone could try to look them up
from Medline. If not, maybe I'll try to do that tomorrow.

As for herbs or diet, it's true that they can slightly affect
coagulation, but probably not enough.

--
Matti Narkia

Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:58:00 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Kramer

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin? This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

I forgot to mention in the previous message that some polyunsaturated
fatty acids, especially those found in fish oil, are anti-arrhythmic.
There are studies about this in Medline; I've dug them up in the past
and can do it again, if you wish. Probably largely for this reason some
clinical trials have found that fish oil reduces the risk of sudden
death in cardiac patients. So if there is a risk of ventricular
arrhythmias I would consider taking fish oil daily as a precautionary
measure. IMHO it doesn't remove the need for anticoagulant though.

--
Matti Narkia

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Kramer <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin?

No.

Quoted message said:

This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

The next TIA may very well be a full blown stroke without coumadin anticoagulation.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com

While I am very concerned since the person in question is my father, I
think that "the next TIA may very well be a full blow stroke" for almost
anyone, and the question I'm wondering about is whether having had a
little atrial fibrillation means that one should become a full-time
patient taking such a life-altering medication (with all the regular
monitoring and the risk involved of bleeding). I'm sure there's some
increased risk of stroke to many people who've already had a TIA. I know
he was under tremendous emotional stress when this happened. Also,
prior to this, my father was almost strictly vegetarian and probably was
getting too much vitamin K intake given what I observed of the
particular foods he was eating large quantities of. I was just hoping
that since the stress is gone, the atrial fibrillation isn't happening
now, and there's some possibility to thin the blood some on one's own
without doing it to the degree that coumadin does, maybe I could find a
way that would allow him to be less of a full-time patient when in fact
he is otherwise quite healthy. He really doesn't need to be reading all
the medical info that he is into these days... it's a depressing
subject.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:58:00 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Kramer

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin? This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

Why he wants to replace coumadin (warfarin)? There are other
anticoagulants of course, but they may have their own problems, too.
I've been prescribed low molecular weight heparin (Fragmin) as
precautionary measure before and after surgical operations, but it has
to be delivered by subcutaneous injection. Aspirin is also an
anticoagulant, but it probably (?) has not been proven in your friend's
condition. There may be some studies (or a study) comparing warfarin and
aspirin for some condition, perhaps someone could try to look them up
from Medline. If not, maybe I'll try to do that tomorrow.

As for herbs or diet, it's true that they can slightly affect
coagulation, but probably not enough.

Matti, first, please notice my reply to Dr. Chung. To add to that, it
is not my father's idea right now to find an alternative to coumadin.
It is a thought of mine and I was looking into it some since I thought
he seems to not be having his problem for an extended period now.
I think aspirin is more a platelet aggregation inhibitor or whatever
you call it exactly. I guess it does have part of the function.
Thanks for the thoughts on how much herbs, etc. might affect the
situation. I thought it was probably pretty mild anti-coagulation
effect. Of course, a good diet that might thin the blood mildly, along
with some aspirin and regular fish in the diet which as you say, helps
rhythm and would also be a little bit of a blood thinner itself I guess,
and regular exercise would seem quite helpful. I just don't like seeing
him become a patient like this when he seems to pretty much have his
health. However, for all I know, most people would do well to be on a
blood thinner into advanced age. That could well be the case.
Also, thanks a ton for the research you did! Wow! These are very
interesting articles you found and I am going to get into them
thoroughly. Maybe there truly are equal or better alternatives out
there that would be less risky than coumadin.

A combination of aspirin and fish oil supplements would be an alternative.

Kramer <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, sl4333
@bendnet.com says...

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin? This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

One point I'm making here is that there would be exact adherence to the
diet, regardless of quantities of certain things, so that the general
clotting ability would stay about the same all the time.

Kramer said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin? This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

Big gamble you take with that kind of experimentation. If you are
wrong, death or a stroke could be the result. I just take the
Warfarin.

Bob

Kramer said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin? This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

For info on A Fib go to

www.afibbers.net

Bob

"Kramer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to have an exact diet every day that includes the right
foods, herbs, and spices in the right amounts and enough avoidance of
the wrong foods in too much quantity that would basically substitute for
using the blood thinner coumadin?

No. Warfarin ("Coumadin"😉 prevents the liver from manufacturing proteins
which it would normally put in the blood to participate in coagulation. The
only way that you could construct such a diet would be to severely limit
vitamin K intake, and such a diet would be ridiculously contrived.

Quoted message said:

This is for someone who has had
atrial fibrillation which seems to have been the cause of a transient
ischemic attack which didn't do any noticeable damage after it passed.
The atrial fibrillation was about a year ago, but there are some
ventricular arrythmias occasionally as well, but none progressing to a-
fib at this point.

Don't try to play down the significance of atrial fibrillation or TIA. He's
in a perfect position to stroke out next time he goes in and out of AF
without the warfarin.

"Kramer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

anyone, and the question I'm wondering about is whether having had a
little atrial fibrillation means that one should become a full-time
patient

Yes. You're trying to downplay the significance of AF. It is proved that
people with AF are better on warfarin. You're not judging the two evils in
the right perspective.

Quoted message said:

monitoring and the risk involved of bleeding). I'm sure there's some
increased risk of stroke to many people who've already had a TIA. I know
he was under tremendous emotional stress when this happened.

The AF has more to do with it than 'stress'.

Quoted message said:

prior to this, my father was almost strictly vegetarian and probably was
getting too much vitamin K intake given what I observed of the
particular foods he was eating large quantities of.

A normal person with a normal diet (whether they be vegetarian, carnivore,
stressed or not) is going to have a normal INR. It's not the case that
eating too much Vitamin K causes your blood to become 'too coagulable' (ie
low INR) and causes TIA/stroke.

Quoted message said:

now, and there's some possibility to thin the blood some on one's own
without doing it to the degree that coumadin does, maybe I could find a
way that would allow him to be less of a full-time patient when in fact
he is otherwise quite healthy.

Warfarin is generally the correct treatment for AF. You can construct as
many arguments as you like, and that fact is still true.

Richard Cavell said:

Don't try to play down the significance of atrial fibrillation or TIA. He's
in a perfect position to stroke out next time he goes in and out of AF
without the warfarin.

My paroxysmal afib was diagnosed in 1995 and I am on warfarin since
then. I had a dual-chamber pacemaker implanted mid 2002 because of
extreme bradycardia and AV block 1st degree. No other heart problem,
thanks God.

Upon my last PM check last summer, my cardiologist said that I'd
better quit warfarin because my (quite frequent) afib episodes were
lasting from few minutes to few hours only. He explained that,
considering the pro's and con's of warfarin, that drug should be taken
only in case of afibs lasting more than 24-48 hours (I do not remember
if he said 24 or 48 or both).
Anyway, my cardiologist preferred to defer his final recommendation
(about quitting warfarin) to my next PM check which is due in
december.

I would appreciate your comment about warfarin therapy and the
duration of paroxysmal afib episodes, please.
--
uplbet
(in email reply delete 01234 from the address)

uplbet said:

Richard Cavell said:

Don't try to play down the significance of atrial fibrillation or TIA. He's
in a perfect position to stroke out next time he goes in and out of AF
without the warfarin.

My paroxysmal afib was diagnosed in 1995 and I am on warfarin since
then. I had a dual-chamber pacemaker implanted mid 2002 because of
extreme bradycardia and AV block 1st degree. No other heart problem,
thanks God.

Upon my last PM check last summer, my cardiologist said that I'd
better quit warfarin because my (quite frequent) afib episodes were
lasting from few minutes to few hours only. He explained that,
considering the pro's and con's of warfarin, that drug should be taken
only in case of afibs lasting more than 24-48 hours (I do not remember
if he said 24 or 48 or both).
Anyway, my cardiologist preferred to defer his final recommendation
(about quitting warfarin) to my next PM check which is due in
december.

I will be very interested in the response you get to this posting. I
will be on Warfarin for the rest of my life because I have a
mechanical MV. Also, like you, and with a dual chamber pacemaker I
have paroxysmal AF and atrial flutter and first degress heart block.
For me, warfarin does not seem to be such a major thing except that,
at the moment, there is a problem trying to regulate my INR. This has
only occurred since my pacemaker was inserted but I cannot see how it
can be the cause. I take 3000 mgs of Omega 3 fish oil each day (with
the clinic's approval) but my INR seems to be sticking at 2.8 when
they want it to be between 3-4. Re Aspirin - is there not a danger of
stomach problems with it? Also, agree with other posters that AF
should not be treated lightly. Even if there is no valve damage the
electric fault is there and should be taken seriously. Diana

Quoted message said:

I would appreciate your comment about warfarin therapy and the
duration of paroxysmal afib episodes, please.
--
uplbet
(in email reply delete 01234 from the address)

uplbet said:

Richard Cavell said:

Don't try to play down the significance of atrial fibrillation or TIA. He's
in a perfect position to stroke out next time he goes in and out of AF
without the warfarin.

My paroxysmal afib was diagnosed in 1995 and I am on warfarin since
then. I had a dual-chamber pacemaker implanted mid 2002 because of
extreme bradycardia and AV block 1st degree. No other heart problem,
thanks God.

Upon my last PM check last summer, my cardiologist said that I'd
better quit warfarin because my (quite frequent) afib episodes were
lasting from few minutes to few hours only. He explained that,
considering the pro's and con's of warfarin, that drug should be taken
only in case of afibs lasting more than 24-48 hours (I do not remember
if he said 24 or 48 or both).
Anyway, my cardiologist preferred to defer his final recommendation
(about quitting warfarin) to my next PM check which is due in
december.

I would appreciate your comment about warfarin therapy and the
duration of paroxysmal afib episodes, please.
--
uplbet
(in email reply delete 01234 from the address)

Coumadin prevents strokes in at-risk folks with paroxysmal a-fib regardless of
duration of episodes.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

MD/PhD said:

Coumadin prevents strokes in at-risk folks with paroxysmal a-fib regardless of
duration of episodes.

let me put you a couple of questions that are not at all trivial for
me.

1) can a person have a vagal paroxysmal afib and not be at risk?

2) and if so, the next time I see my cardiologist should I better ask
him if I am at risk, or not? (shame on me, I've never asked him this
question in almost ten years)

Regards
--
uplbet
(in email reply delete 01234 from the address)

I am a cardiology technician and work for an electrophysiologist. His opinion
as a rhythm specialist is that atrial fibrillation lasting longer than 15
minutes is significant.I have long been told that flipping up and back from
sinus rhythm to atrial fibrillation also increases stoke risk. There is no
substitution for coumadin. Aspirin therapy has show to be effective in
preventing heart attacks by affecting platelet aggregation. Plavix is a great
drug for those this clots in the legs etc. It makes the platelets slippery I
believe. These substance do not protect the patient from embolic stroke. Why
would you want to chance a person you care for. Life isnt easy. Aging is not
easy. Sometimes we need to do weather the storm and do the hard thing to
achieve our goal even if it is not umpleasant. In this case the goal is
continued health.

uplbet said:

MD/PhD said:

Coumadin prevents strokes in at-risk folks with paroxysmal a-fib regardless of
duration of episodes.

let me put you a couple of questions that are not at all trivial for
me.

1) can a person have a vagal paroxysmal afib and not be at risk?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

2) and if so, the next time I see my cardiologist should I better ask
him if I am at risk, or not? (shame on me, I've never asked him this
question in almost ten years)

As I recall, you would be considered at risk because of age (over 50) and having
hypertension.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

(Complex592) said:

I am a cardiology technician and work for an electrophysiologist. His opinion
as a rhythm specialist is that atrial fibrillation lasting longer than 15
minutes is significant [...]

thanks so much and best regards
--
uplbet
(in email reply delete 01234 from the address)