Him and Lance have been convicted by some here

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

European appeals courts work by different criteria than those in the US. In
the US appeals courts do not usually review the findings of fact, but look
for errors in law. Some Euro ACs look at the entire trial de novo which
makes it a bit of a [censored] shoot. Ferrari rolled the dice and came up a
winner. Is he innocent? You tell me.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Bill C said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

"But the appeals court found that Simeoni's accusations against Ferrari
had no basis in fact"

That's cuz ce type est un menteur absolu.

Allez1 said:

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

European appeals courts work by different criteria than those in the US. In
the US appeals courts do not usually review the findings of fact, but look
for errors in law. Some Euro ACs look at the entire trial de novo which
makes it a bit of a [censored] shoot. Ferrari rolled the dice and came up a
winner. Is he innocent? You tell me.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

I'm willing to bet that the court had better information, and more of
it to review presented to it than all of us out here will ever have
access to, and this was their decision. Given the climate of trying to
get the dopers, by the police and courts, I would find it hard to
believe the judge would make that definitive a statement without good
cause.
There's no guarantee the court isn't wrong, but their opinion is
obviously better informed than mine.
Bill C

Robert Chung said:

Bill C said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

"But the appeals court found that Simeoni's accusations against Ferrari
had no basis in fact"

That's cuz ce type est un menteur absolu.

sez who ?

Quoted message said:

I'm willing to bet that the court had better information, and more of
it to review presented to it than all of us out here will ever have
access to, and this was their decision. Given the climate of trying to
get the dopers, by the police and courts, I would find it hard to
believe the judge would make that definitive a statement without good
cause.
There's no guarantee the court isn't wrong, but their opinion is
obviously better informed than mine.
Bill C

Well stated. I could not sum it up better. Maybe Tyler should have used his
lawyer instead of the offices of Chimera and Chimera .

Bill C said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

IMO criminal prosecutions on the charge of "sporting fraud"
are a stupid idea. Doping cases should be handled by the
dope cops and not the real cops. OTOH, prosecutions
for trading in illegal drugs or of doctors for violating the
various medical codes are potentially legitimate, but I think
on that it was pretty much Simeoni's word vs. Ferrari's,
since Simeoni unlike David Millar didn't save the pill bottles
(if he had any).

However, the standard of proof is justly higher in criminal
prosecutions. Even if there is no evidence to back up
Simeoni, he may not have lied about Ferrari. Ferrari is not
guilty of this charge, but if you think that means Ferrari is
clean and pure and never told anyone how to use EPO
as a performance enhancing drug, I have a stable democracy
in Iraq that I'll let you have for cheap.

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

IMO criminal prosecutions on the charge of "sporting fraud"
are a stupid idea. Doping cases should be handled by the
dope cops and not the real cops. OTOH, prosecutions
for trading in illegal drugs or of doctors for violating the
various medical codes are potentially legitimate, but I think
on that it was pretty much Simeoni's word vs. Ferrari's,
since Simeoni unlike David Millar didn't save the pill bottles
(if he had any).

However, the standard of proof is justly higher in criminal
prosecutions. Even if there is no evidence to back up
Simeoni, he may not have lied about Ferrari. Ferrari is not
guilty of this charge, but if you think that means Ferrari is
clean and pure and never told anyone how to use EPO
as a performance enhancing drug, I have a stable democracy
in Iraq that I'll let you have for cheap.

He may very well have told racers how to use it safely and most
effectively, but that's not a crime. There's a ton of sites out there
detailing how to use drugs that are perfectly legal and even encouraged
as protecting peoples health. I have a real mixed opinion on them from
our bad personal experience but I wouldn't call for them to be made
illegal.
The information isn't "criminal", and neither is the material, it's
the use YOU make of what you have that might be "criminal".
Most of the drug treatment types we met support the sites telling
people how to use the drugs, because in their opinion they reduce the
danger.
Looked at from that viewpoint Ferrari is a hero if he told people how
to do it safely.
Bill C

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

IMO criminal prosecutions on the charge of "sporting fraud"
are a stupid idea. Doping cases should be handled by the
dope cops and not the real cops. OTOH, prosecutions
for trading in illegal drugs or of doctors for violating the
various medical codes are potentially legitimate, but I think
on that it was pretty much Simeoni's word vs. Ferrari's,
since Simeoni unlike David Millar didn't save the pill bottles
(if he had any).

I wonder why Millar didn't just claim that he didn't use the EPO and he kept the
EPO bottle around as a reminder of what other riders needed to beat him. It's good
that he was honest, of course, but I can sure see Virenque saying that.

Quoted message said:

However, the standard of proof is justly higher in criminal
prosecutions. Even if there is no evidence to back up
Simeoni, he may not have lied about Ferrari. Ferrari is not
guilty of this charge, but if you think that means Ferrari is
clean and pure and never told anyone how to use EPO
as a performance enhancing drug, I have a stable democracy
in Iraq that I'll let you have for cheap.

Exactly. The fact that he was considered not guilty of these charges may simply
mean that the prosecution didn't make a good enough case in court. Let's hope
Ferrari doesn't say that he's going to go find the real EPO dealers, then disappear
off to golf courses all over southern Italy.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Bill C said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

I believe the cyclingnews.com story mistranslates what Ferrari's
attorney states. Most italian news media report that they may seek a
return to the Supreme Court for a complete exoneration of Ferrari. He
was completely exonerated on the charges of "abusive acts as pharmacist"
(my poor translation) because he did not prescribe to the public but
only to a restricted group and then only sparodically. On the charges of
sporting fraud, the court essentially issued an injuction because the
acts alleged do not constitute a crime.

Besides whom would they sue for damages? The prosecutors, the lower
court, the witnesses?

Gabe Brovedani

Gabe Brovedani said:

Bill C said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

I believe the cyclingnews.com story mistranslates what Ferrari's
attorney states. Most italian news media report that they may seek a
return to the Supreme Court for a complete exoneration of Ferrari. He
was completely exonerated on the charges of "abusive acts as pharmacist"
(my poor translation) because he did not prescribe to the public but
only to a restricted group and then only sparodically. On the charges of
sporting fraud, the court essentially issued an injuction because the
acts alleged do not constitute a crime.

Besides whom would they sue for damages? The prosecutors, the lower
court, the witnesses?

Gabe Brovedani

My thought was that they might sue Simeoni for defamation, false
charges, etc... and that's what the story seemed to indicate.
Bill C

Bill C said:

Gabe Brovedani said:

Bill C said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

I believe the cyclingnews.com story mistranslates what Ferrari's
attorney states. Most italian news media report that they may seek a
return to the Supreme Court for a complete exoneration of Ferrari. He
was completely exonerated on the charges of "abusive acts as pharmacist"
(my poor translation) because he did not prescribe to the public but
only to a restricted group and then only sparodically. On the charges of
sporting fraud, the court essentially issued an injuction because the
acts alleged do not constitute a crime.

Besides whom would they sue for damages? The prosecutors, the lower
court, the witnesses?

Gabe Brovedani

My thought was that they might sue Simeoni for defamation, false
charges, etc... and that's what the story seemed to indicate.
Bill C

Simeoni was testifying in a criminal prosecution under subpeona. If he
was lying, the prosecution would be first in line with charges.

Plus, if I understand the little I've read of the court's decision, the
exoneration is based not upon the falsity of the evidence presented but
that the evidence is insufficient to maintain the conviction.

There will be no defamation suit. Besides, truth is a defense to
defamation.

Gabe Brovedani

At first I read the subject line as "Tim and Lance have been convicted
by some in here" and I thought you were finally going to give those
[censored] hell on our behalf. Imagine my disappointment when finally I...

Gabe Brovedani said:

Quoted message said:

Simeoni was testifying in a criminal prosecution under subpeona. If he
was lying, the prosecution would be first in line with charges.

Dumbass -

[censored].

If it's a he said/she said case with no corroborating evidence either
way, they can't prove Simeoni was lying any more than they could prove
Ferrari was lying.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Allez1 said:

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The reaction to this should be interesting.:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may27news

Michele Ferrari absolved of all charges by Italian appeals court
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

In a decision earlier this week, an Italian Court of Appeal in Bologna
absolved Dr. Michele Ferrari of the sporting fraud charges related to
accusations by Filippo Simeoni, as well as charges of abusing his
medical license to write prescriptions "because the facts do not exist"
to support these charges.
More snipped

Especially in the climate to convict anyone possible this is huge IMO,
and lots of people have some tasty crow to eat, but probably wont.
I should think that wraps it up for Simeoni on all counts. Given the
court decisions there's nothing you can say other than he falsely
trashed lots of peoples names and reputations with accusations found by
due process to have been false.
It will be interesting if Ferrari's people bring a suit for damages,
and if Lance joins in. I think Lance'll just let it go, but Ferrari may
not.
Bill C
Let the rationalizations and accusations fly.

European appeals courts work by different criteria than those in the US. In
the US appeals courts do not usually review the findings of fact, but look
for errors in law. Some Euro ACs look at the entire trial de novo which
makes it a bit of a [censored] shoot. Ferrari rolled the dice and came up a
winner. Is he innocent? You tell me.

He's pure as the driven snow. What do you think?

--
Michael Press

Subject line should read "He and Lance..."

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill

C (') said:

Looked at from that viewpoint Ferrari is a hero if he told people how
to do it safely.

So someone who teaches someone else to cheat safely is a 'hero' in your
book? Interesting code of ethics you have there.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...

Stu Fleming said:

Subject line should read "He and Lance..."

rbr spelling: He and LANCE or maybe LANCE and He

Stu Fleming said:

Subject line should read "He and Lance..."

rbr spelling: He and LANCE or maybe LANCE and He

Stu Fleming said:

Subject line should read "He and Lance..."

rbr spelling: He and LANCE or maybe LANCE and He