Radial Spoke pattern, what are the advantages...or not?

Grolch said:

I have a Specialized Rockhopper Pro circa 2002 or so. The front wheel is
radially spoked and the rear is OCR (off-center rim). What, if any are the
advantages/disadvantages of this

TIA, Grolsch

Err radial spokes look nice?

Stan Cox

"Grolch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Y9Dgg.8269$A8.4333@clgrps12...

Quoted message said:

I have a Specialized Rockhopper Pro circa 2002 or so. The front wheel is
radially spoked and the rear is OCR (off-center rim). What, if any are the
advantages/disadvantages of this

TIA, Grolsch

In my opinion, it is for looks and styling.
Many people think it looks cool or like they are a pro or something.

Grolch said:

I have a Specialized Rockhopper Pro circa 2002 or so. The front wheel is
radially spoked and the rear is OCR (off-center rim). What, if any are the
advantages/disadvantages of this

Radial advantages: Looks neat; slightly easier to replace a broken
spoke than with cross lacing in some cases; very slightly lighter due
to the use of shorter spokes.

Radial disadvantages: Higher point loading of the hub flange in the
weakest area around the spoke hole; not suitable for use with disc
brakes or hub brakes; sometimes believed to be more susceptible to the
spokes loosening due to the nipple unscrewing; not suitable for use on
the drive side of a rear wheel.

It is common to see rear wheels laced radially on the non-drive side
where the spoke tensions are typically lower than normal.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

It is common to see rear wheels laced radially on the non-drive side
where the spoke tensions are typically lower than normal.

How much lower than normal tension should rear wheels non-drive side
spokes be?
I noticed recently, that the spokes on my cross laced rear wheel, have
the non-drive side spokes with much, much less tension than the ones
on the drive side...

jbr

BigBen said:

How much lower than normal tension should rear wheels non-drive side
spokes be?

Difference in tension (ratio) is controlled by the geometry of wheel...
how far each flange is from the centerline.

On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:53:24 GMT, [email hidden] (BigBen)

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

It is common to see rear wheels laced radially on the non-drive side
where the spoke tensions are typically lower than normal.

How much lower than normal tension should rear wheels non-drive side
spokes be?
I noticed recently, that the spokes on my cross laced rear wheel, have
the non-drive side spokes with much, much less tension than the ones
on the drive side...

jbr

Dear JBR,

Scroll down to the bottom of this page for a table of manufacturer
tension specifications collected by Park Tools:

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=128

Notice that the symmetrical front spokes that resemble the rear NDS
are usually lower tension than the flattened rear DS spokes.

This hints that the rear NDS spokes are probably expected to be
somewhere around front-spoke tension for the same brand and model.

Sometimes the range is amusing--notice near the top where Bontrager
vaguely says that all spokes should be somewhere between about 50 and
130 kgf.

If you go here:

http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic/

You can use the secret login and password "mavic-com" and "dealer" and
then browse lots of Mavic wheel tension stuff, which is usually near
the bottom of the first pdf showing the wheel and parts. (The
excitement wears off quickly.)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Grolch said:

The front wheel is radially spoked

As said, looks cooler and puts more stress on the hub flange (at the
point it may collapse if the hub isn't specially designed for that).
Something I wouldn't recommend.

Quoted message said:

and the rear is OCR (off-center rim).

You mean, an assymetrical profile rim with spoke holes not in the
middle of it but rather on the left side (for rear wheels)?
Looks a bit weirder (that can appear as some high-end secret weapon),
but evens spoke tension across both sides of the wheels, making the
wheel probably stiffer and more surely stronger.
Sounds much more desireable than the former!
What is the brand of that rim, Specialized? Or Specialized by someone
else? These are really hard to find here in France...

Ron Ruff said:

Difference in tension (ratio) is controlled by the geometry of wheel...
how far each flange is from the centerline.

Sorry, is that a statement or a question?

I can try measuring that, if it helps.

Best
jbr

Quoted message said:

Scroll down to the bottom of this page for a table of manufacturer
tension specifications collected by Park Tools:

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=128

Did. My rim manufacturer is not listed - Rodi, or Vuelta (which is the
name they use to sell they products). http://www.rodi.pt/ They have
representatives in several Euro countries, but not in the US,
apparently.

Quoted message said:

Notice that the symmetrical front spokes that resemble the rear NDS
are usually lower tension than the flattened rear DS spokes.

This hints that the rear NDS spokes are probably expected to be
somewhere around front-spoke tension for the same brand and model.

Sorry, I'm confused by what you mean by NDS and DS...

Quoted message said:

Sometimes the range is amusing--notice near the top where Bontrager
vaguely says that all spokes should be somewhere between about 50 and
130 kgf.

Laughable!

Quoted message said:

If you go here:
http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic/

You can use the secret login and password "mavic-com" and "dealer" and

Thanks for the info!

Best,
jbr

Grolch said:

I have a Specialized Rockhopper Pro circa 2002 or so. The front wheel is
radially spoked and the rear is OCR (off-center rim). What, if any are the
advantages/disadvantages of this

TIA, Grolsch

Radial front wheels are faster to lace, hence cheaper..no performance
advantages-like so much 'bike' for looks and selling.

On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:18:38 GMT, [email hidden] (BigBen)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scroll down to the bottom of this page for a table of manufacturer
tension specifications collected by Park Tools:

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=128

Did. My rim manufacturer is not listed - Rodi, or Vuelta (which is the
name they use to sell they products). http://www.rodi.pt/ They have
representatives in several Euro countries, but not in the US,
apparently.

Quoted message said:

Notice that the symmetrical front spokes that resemble the rear NDS
are usually lower tension than the flattened rear DS spokes.

This hints that the rear NDS spokes are probably expected to be
somewhere around front-spoke tension for the same brand and model.

Sorry, I'm confused by what you mean by NDS and DS...

Quoted message said:

Sometimes the range is amusing--notice near the top where Bontrager
vaguely says that all spokes should be somewhere between about 50 and
130 kgf.

Laughable!

Quoted message said:

If you go here:
http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic/

You can use the secret login and password "mavic-com" and "dealer" and

Thanks for the info!

Best,
jbr

Dear JBR,

Your manufacturer is unlikely to depart from the general trend of
lower tension on the non-drive-side. In fact, it's rather difficult to
do so with a dished wheel. 🙂

Drive side (usually right) and non-drive-side (usually left). The
abbreviations DS and NDS are shorter, which saves valuable keystrokes,
and a kindness to the dyslexic, who can confuse right and left even
while staring at a bicycle.

Occasionally, furious battles break out over the use of DS and NDS,
with accusations flying that jargon has no place in the real world and
that right and left were good enough for our ancestors holding the
reins behind teams of horses.

Unfortunately for such linguistic purists, it turns out that it's
common in the stunt-riding BMX-style world to swap the drive-side to
the left (horrors!) because some riders prefer to grind on the wrong
side:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

nikojorj_jaimepaslapub said:

Grolch said:

The front wheel is radially spoked

As said, looks cooler and puts more stress on the hub flange (at the
point it may collapse if the hub isn't specially designed for that).
Something I wouldn't recommend.

I've built up many radial front wheels -- I like the way they look -- and
have never had any trouble with the hub. Campagnolo and Shimano
specifically say that building radially voids the warranty, but that is
more of a lawyerly concern than anything else. In that world, it's not
what is dangerous that matters, but what can be made to appear to be
dangerous.

No, they do not provide any advantage.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

carlfogel said:

Drive side (usually right) and non-drive-side (usually left).

"Usually"???  I know of two bikes that have left-side drive. One
Sheldon Brown built, sort of because he could. I could convert a bike to
left-hand drive, too, since I can use my tandem cranks and a fixed gear
rear. But absolutely zero production bikes come with other than
right-side drive. The other I know about is ridden by a messenger in NYC
who does not have a right crank. Nor does he have a right leg.

Quoted message said:

The
abbreviations DS and NDS are shorter, which saves valuable keystrokes,

Yeah, right. But "right-side" (RS) is no longer than "drive-side", and
"left-side" (LS) is shorter and makes more sense than "non-drive side".

Quoted message said:

and a kindness to the dyslexic, who can confuse right and left even
while staring at a bicycle.

Only if they are reading the bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately for such linguistic purists, it turns out that it's common
in the stunt-riding BMX-style world to swap the drive-side to the left
(horrors!) because some riders prefer to grind on the wrong side:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44

These are the moral equivalent of aging freaks like Sheldon. They consist
of what fraction of the industry?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

carlfogel said:

Drive side (usually right) and non-drive-side (usually left).

"Usually"???  I know of two bikes that have left-side drive. One
Sheldon Brown built, sort of because he could. I could convert a bike to
left-hand drive, too, since I can use my tandem cranks and a fixed gear
rear. But absolutely zero production bikes come with other than
right-side drive. The other I know about is ridden by a messenger in NYC
who does not have a right crank. Nor does he have a right leg.

Quoted message said:

The
abbreviations DS and NDS are shorter, which saves valuable keystrokes,

Yeah, right. But "right-side" (RS) is no longer than "drive-side", and
"left-side" (LS) is shorter and makes more sense than "non-drive side".

Quoted message said:

and a kindness to the dyslexic, who can confuse right and left even
while staring at a bicycle.

Only if they are reading the bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately for such linguistic purists, it turns out that it's common
in the stunt-riding BMX-style world to swap the drive-side to the left
(horrors!) because some riders prefer to grind on the wrong side:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44

These are the moral equivalent of aging freaks like Sheldon. They consist
of what fraction of the industry?

Dear David,

Wouldn't "harumph!" have been shorter?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

carlfogel said:

Drive side (usually right) and non-drive-side (usually left).

"Usually"??? I know of two bikes that have left-side drive. One
Sheldon Brown built, sort of because he could. I could convert a
bike to left-hand drive, too, since I can use my tandem cranks and a
fixed gear rear. But absolutely zero production bikes come with
other than right-side drive. The other I know about is ridden by a
messenger in NYC who does not have a right crank. Nor does he have
a right leg.

Quoted message said:

The
abbreviations DS and NDS are shorter, which saves valuable
keystrokes,

Yeah, right. But "right-side" (RS) is no longer than "drive-side",
and "left-side" (LS) is shorter and makes more sense than "non-drive
side".

Quoted message said:

and a kindness to the dyslexic, who can confuse right and left even
while staring at a bicycle.

Only if they are reading the bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately for such linguistic purists, it turns out that it's
common in the stunt-riding BMX-style world to swap the drive-side
to the left (horrors!) because some riders prefer to grind on the
wrong side:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44

These are the moral equivalent of aging freaks like Sheldon. They
consist of what fraction of the industry?

Quoted message said:

Dear David,

Wouldn't "harumph!" have been shorter?

Physician, heal thyself. (Although the irony is keen.)

/b

[email hidden] wrote:
---snip---

Quoted message said:

Sometimes the range is amusing--notice near the top where Bontrager
vaguely says that all spokes should be somewhere between about 50 and
130 kgf.

---/snip---

Dear Carl,
I think the vastness of the range in tension you have observed
may be explained in part by the nature of the front wheels mentioned.
Specifically, those Bontrager wheels with the widest range of
acceptable tensions are intended for MTB use, and as befits the modern
trend, have disc front hubs (which result in a dished front wheel).

SYJ

[email hidden] wrote:
---snip---

Quoted message said:

Sometimes the range is amusing--notice near the top where Bontrager
vaguely says that all spokes should be somewhere between about 50 and
130 kgf.

---/snip---

Dear Carl,
I think the vastness of the range in tension you have observed
may be explained in part by the nature of the front wheels mentioned.
Specifically, those Bontrager wheels with the widest range of
acceptable tensions are intended for MTB use, and as befits the modern
trend, have disc front hubs (which result in a dished front wheel).

SYJ

BigBen said:

Ron Ruff said:

Difference in tension (ratio) is controlled by the geometry of wheel...
how far each flange is from the centerline.

Sorry, is that a statement or a question?

A statement. In order for the rim to be centered between the dropouts
the tension will need to be much greater on the DS than the NDS (I like
that, Carl). The ratio of tensions is roughly the same as the ratio of
the distance of the centerline from each flange... though using an
offset rim will even things out a bit.

Quoted message said:

You mean, an assymetrical profile rim with spoke holes not in the
middle of it but rather on the left side (for rear wheels)?
Looks a bit weirder (that can appear as some high-end secret weapon),
but evens spoke tension across both sides of the wheels, making the
wheel probably stiffer and more surely stronger.

Actually neither is sure (the wheel will be *less* stiff laterally... I
think))... but one thing it will do is increase the amount of side
force tolerated before the NDS spokes go slack.