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Is it possible to live in America without a car?

Started by donquijote1954 · · Last activity · 961 posts · 17,861 views

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Road Cycling
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1 June 2006
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27 June 2006
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donquijote1954
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  1. "Bill Z." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    George Conklin said:

    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Swedish policy: a model to follow


    Substituting less energy-efficient technologies does not make Sweden a
    model to follow. Nor will they be oil free. Plastics are found in
    everything these days. You cannot use burlap in making a computer.

    As usual, Conklin has his "facts" wrong.

    Check out

    <http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Biodegrade/Green-PlasticsAug00.htm>

    for a copy of a six-year-old Scientific American article. It starts by
    stating "It is now technologically possible to make plastics using
    green plants rather than fossil fuels." Also, plastics are not the
    major issue even if you make them from oil. "Automobiles, trucks,
    jets and power plants account for more than 90 percent of the output
    from crude-oil refineries, but plastics consume the bulk of the
    remainder, around 80 million tons a year in the U.S. alone."

    As I wrote, Sweden will not be oil free. Thanks for the confirmation.

  2. "RicodJour" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    George Conklin said:

    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Swedish policy: a model to follow


    Substituting less energy-efficient technologies does not make Sweden a
    model to follow. Nor will they be oil free. Plastics are found in
    everything these days. You cannot use burlap in making a computer.

    If the energy is essentially provided free, why does the initial
    efficiency matter? So what if they can get 85% of the energy out of
    oil, and only 30% (or whatever) out of the earth. It'd still be
    cheaper, pollute less, and there'd be little need to traffic in energy
    between continents.

    BTW, you certainly can use burlap to make computers. The circuit
    boards are usually phenolic which is a canvas, or other fabric,
    impregnated with resin.

    r

    Quick: Write to Texas Instruments and tell them to make computers out of
    burlap. Invest. Grow rich. Ha Ha Ha

  3. RicodJour said:
    George Conklin said:

    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Swedish policy: a model to follow


    Substituting less energy-efficient technologies does not make Sweden a
    model to follow. Nor will they be oil free. Plastics are found in
    everything these days. You cannot use burlap in making a computer.

    If the energy is essentially provided free, why does the initial
    efficiency matter? So what if they can get 85% of the energy out of
    oil, and only 30% (or whatever) out of the earth. It'd still be
    cheaper, pollute less, and there'd be little need to traffic in energy
    between continents.

    BTW, you certainly can use burlap to make computers. The circuit
    boards are usually phenolic which is a canvas, or other fabric,
    impregnated with resin.

    Circuit boards are actually made of glass fibre mat impregnated with synthetic
    resin. No burlap involved.

    Graham

  4. George Conklin said:

    "Bill Z." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    George Conklin said:

    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > Swedish policy: a model to follow
    >
    Substituting less energy-efficient technologies does not make Sweden a
    model to follow. Nor will they be oil free. Plastics are found in
    everything these days. You cannot use burlap in making a computer.

    As usual, Conklin has his "facts" wrong.

    Check out

    <http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Biodegrade/Green-PlasticsAug00.htm>

    for a copy of a six-year-old Scientific American article. It starts by
    stating "It is now technologically possible to make plastics using
    green plants rather than fossil fuels." Also, plastics are not the
    major issue even if you make them from oil. "Automobiles, trucks,
    jets and power plants account for more than 90 percent of the output
    from crude-oil refineries, but plastics consume the bulk of the
    remainder, around 80 million tons a year in the U.S. alone."

    As I wrote, Sweden will not be oil free. Thanks for the confirmation.

    What confirmation? Do you have a serious reading-comprehension
    problem or something? The article clearly pointed out that you do not
    really need oil to produce plastics. What the hell you you think the
    sentence "It is now technologically possible to make plastics using
    green plants rather than fossil fuels" means? What it means is that
    what you posted was simply wrong.

    --
    My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

  5. "Pooh Bear" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    RicodJour said:
    George Conklin said:

    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > Swedish policy: a model to follow
    >
    Substituting less energy-efficient technologies does not make Sweden
    a
    model to follow. Nor will they be oil free. Plastics are found in
    everything these days. You cannot use burlap in making a computer.

    If the energy is essentially provided free, why does the initial
    efficiency matter? So what if they can get 85% of the energy out of
    oil, and only 30% (or whatever) out of the earth. It'd still be
    cheaper, pollute less, and there'd be little need to traffic in energy
    between continents.

    BTW, you certainly can use burlap to make computers. The circuit
    boards are usually phenolic which is a canvas, or other fabric,
    impregnated with resin.

    Circuit boards are actually made of glass fibre mat impregnated with
    synthetic
    resin. No burlap involved.

    Graham

    Remember planners deal in dreams and as far as I can tell are
    technologically impaired. Otherwise they could not post the [censored] they do.
    They are also violently anti-historical.

  6. "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    George Conklin said:

    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Swedish policy: a model to follow


    Substituting less energy-efficient technologies does not make Sweden a
    model to follow. Nor will they be oil free. Plastics are found in
    everything these days. You cannot use burlap in making a computer.

    So who's the model to follow, America? Since plastics use oil, why not
    waste it freely in SUVs like there's no tomorrow.

    Realistically we should be speaking about a scale of clean countries,
    where Sweden is a 10 and America, well, a 1 or 2 maybe.

    I guess you need to move there.

  7. "donquijote1954"

    Quoted message said:

    Sweden ...Well, they have a national policy on energy more powerful than
    Big Oil,
    which is the opposite of what we got here.

    American national policy IS Big Oil.

    As I've posted here before, just before the Iraq War started, I bought Shell
    and BP stock. Both have done pretty darned well since, as have oils in
    general.

    See, for instance, these 5 year stock charts:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=RDS-B&t=5y
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=BP&t=5y
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=XOM&t=5y
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CVX&t=5y

    Down before the Iraq War, up since it started. Maybe a coincidence.

  8. stephen.richards said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sweden will be the first oil-free country in the world by 2020
    The Swedish government has announced that Sweden is planning to become
    the world's first oil-free country by 2020. Will they make it?


    Hard to see how they are going to make it. They have already spurned
    nuclear power, don't get much sunshine up there in the Baltic (in fact
    the north of the country is above the polar circle, so gets no sunshine
    at all midwinter) - it sounds completely unrealistic to me.

    Geothermal?

    Oh, wait - that's Iceland. 🙂
    --
    What the heck, I'll play too.
    - Dave

  9. "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why do you WANT to believe that's
    true? Why would you WANT to make a poor and/or minority child think
    he/sh can't succeed, especially when it's so demonstrably false.

    I think the point is that while it is quite possible for a poor child
    to succeed, it is a lot harder than for someone from an affluent
    family, In general the statistics bear this out.

    Two things...

    1) Yes, if you're successful you can offer your children a head start.
    That's one of the biggest incentives anyone could have to BE
    successful, IMHO. But it doesn't preclude making without wealthy
    parents, either. It REALLY doesn't give anyone the right to suggest
    to ANY child that they can't make it (which is what really gets my
    goat).

    2) The US is founded upon the premise of equal opportunity - NOT equal
    outcome. That's why statistics can be so misleading. Are there
    barriers to white guys entering the NBA (US basketball league for
    those of you elsewhere), or against black guys getting into bike
    racing? Nope - but that doesn't mean that every team is going to be a
    representative sampling of the entire US. Similarly, it would be more
    difficult to take up competitive bike racing if you were extremely
    poor, but if it was your dream and you have the ambition, you'd find a
    way to do it (after all, it's not about the bike, according to a
    certain fairly successful American cyclist who was raised in a very
    poor single-mother household). ;-)

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  10. Dave Larrington said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Mark Hickey

    () said:

    I'm thinking the real question is - "is it possible to DRIVE without a
    cell phone stuck to your ear"? I'm beginning to think that for about
    half of the population, the answer is (lamentably) "no".

    I saw a sticker on the back of a motorcycle the other day, which read
    "Would you drive better if that phone was stuck up your [censored]?"

    I have filed this one away for future use.

    The one that I've wanted to see is "If your mommy talks on the phone
    when she drives you to school, she doesn't love you very much".

    I suggested a billboard with that message, and had people offering to
    send money to help fund it! ;-)

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Tom Keats) said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Pat said:

    BTW, I don't have A/C. I have a swimming pool.

    Heh :-) For a moment I thought you were going to say
    you have a swamp cooler.

    I'm sorta dissapointed that nobody's picked-up on my above
    comment, 'cuz I think swamp coolers can be a more eco-friendly
    (and economical) means of cooling than air conditioners. At
    least, in less humid environs.

    Oh, well.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  12. Pooh Bear said:
    RicodJour said:


    BTW, you certainly can use burlap to make computers. The circuit
    boards are usually phenolic which is a canvas, or other fabric,
    impregnated with resin.

    Circuit boards are actually made of glass fibre mat impregnated with synthetic
    resin. No burlap involved.

    Thank you for your statement of the obvious. Please note that I used
    the word "can", as in "are able", I am unsure why this mutated to "are"
    in your mind. I will attempt to simplify what I thought was a clear
    comment.

    - Phenolic is comprised of resins and a fabric or paper core.
    Fiberglas, or glass fibre, mat is a fabric.
    - Not all printed circuit boards, PCBs, are made with fiberglass. The
    less expensive ones are made with paper
    - Here's an overview of phenolic laminates and the substrates used:
    http://www.boedeker.com/ilamp_p.htm
    - The substrates can be paper, vegetable or mineral fiber or fabric.
    Fiberglas can be considered a mineral fiber and it is certainly a
    fabric.
    - Burlap is a common name for a coarse fabric made from Jute, Jute is a
    Bast Fiber, akin to linen (from flax).
    - If paper, linen and canvas can be used for a phenolic laminate and
    PCBs, so can burlap.

    Jorge wrote, "Plastics are found in everything these days. You cannot
    use burlap in making a computer."

    And, as noted above, that's not true. There are also other areas in a
    computer where burlap (Cnoklin's choice of an impossible computer
    material, BTW, not mine) and other substitute materials could be used.
    The operative word being could, or can. Should they be used? Maybe,
    maybe not. That depends on the specifics and economics of the
    materials. But this is all totally immaterial.

    I'm sure you are as aware of the attempted diversion from the topic at
    hand as I am. An earlier paragraph in my original response was more to
    the point:
    "If the energy is essentially provided free, why does the initial
    efficiency matter? So what if they can get 85% of the energy out of
    oil, and only 30% (or whatever) out of the earth. It'd still be
    cheaper, pollute less, and there'd be little need to traffic in energy
    between continents."

    I suppose I should not be surprised that someone with sparse factual
    information, a stupefyingly rigid mindset and a lot to say, wouldn't
    address the meat of the comment and instead poke at the potatos.

    R

  13. Quoted message said:

    "Paralelly, Sweden has been turning her energy supplies from fossil
    fuels to renewable energy. In the oil crisis of the 1970s, 77% of
    Sweden's energy came from oil. By 2003, oil only accounted for 32% of
    Sweden's power supplies, while renewable energy added up a 26% of
    Sweden's energy needs."

    Well, most of the renewable is hydro electric. Ruins the ecosystems of most
    of our major rivers. Less oil is used, true, before the first oil crisis
    Sweden was extremely dependent on imported oil.

    However, there are obvious irrational elements in the persued policies:
    e.g., a number of clean, safe, and not air polluting nuclear reactors have
    been shut down. The energy lost has not been replaced by renewable energy,
    instead Sweden imports electricity generated in former east germany, poland
    and the baltic states, from coal and far less safe nuclear reactors. More
    carbodioxide is generated, on behalf of Sweden, than ever before and it does
    not stop at the Swedish border. In fact some of the Greens have a lot of
    common with don Quijote 😉

    Per
    http://lowdin.nu

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Mark Hickey said:
    Dave Larrington said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Mark Hickey

    () said:

    I'm thinking the real question is - "is it possible to DRIVE without a
    cell phone stuck to your ear"? I'm beginning to think that for about
    half of the population, the answer is (lamentably) "no".

    I saw a sticker on the back of a motorcycle the other day, which read
    "Would you drive better if that phone was stuck up your [censored]?"

    I have filed this one away for future use.

    The one that I've wanted to see is "If your mommy talks on the phone
    when she drives you to school, she doesn't love you very much".

    I suggested a billboard with that message, and had people offering to
    send money to help fund it! ;-)

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

    I hate to bring this up, Mark, but do you really think that such drivers
    would notice that billboard???

    Since you do custom frames...would you build a recumbent trike frame???

    HAND

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:


    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    George Conklin said:

    "donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > Swedish policy: a model to follow
    >
    Substituting less energy-efficient technologies does not make Sweden a
    model to follow. Nor will they be oil free. Plastics are found in
    everything these days. You cannot use burlap in making a computer.

    So who's the model to follow, America? Since plastics use oil, why not
    waste it freely in SUVs like there's no tomorrow.

    Realistically we should be speaking about a scale of clean countries,
    where Sweden is a 10 and America, well, a 1 or 2 maybe.

    I guess you need to move there.


    So anyone who thinks things can improve in America should leave?

  16. George Conklin said:

    "RicodJour" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    George Conklin said:

    They won't be oil free. It is in too many products. If you want to live
    in
    a cave, then you can of course not heat it. Cool in the summer; warm in
    the
    winter. Your arthritis sufferers will have a problem, but then what the
    heck?


    You must know some people with that new "smart" arthritis that can
    distinguish between oil/gas heat and geothermal/electric heat.

    Lead was everywhere not that long ago. They severely limited its use
    in many industries due to its detrimental effect on health and
    particularly brain....oh....sorry. 😉

    R

    Lead did not heat our homes or propel the railroads. What are you talking
    about anyway?


    Just so you know, lead was banned in electronics, which makes for low
    reliability, but is still used in car batteries, which are the greatest
    source of lead being dumped at random.
    Bill Baka

  17. "Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    George Conklin said:

    "RicodJour" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    George Conklin wrote:
    > They won't be oil free. It is in too many products. If you want to
    > live in
    > a cave, then you can of course not heat it. Cool in the summer; warm
    > in the
    > winter. Your arthritis sufferers will have a problem, but then what
    > the
    > heck?
    You must know some people with that new "smart" arthritis that can
    distinguish between oil/gas heat and geothermal/electric heat.

    Lead was everywhere not that long ago. They severely limited its use
    in many industries due to its detrimental effect on health and
    particularly brain....oh....sorry. 😉

    R

    Lead did not heat our homes or propel the railroads. What are you
    talking about anyway?


    Just so you know, lead was banned in electronics, which makes for low
    reliability, but is still used in car batteries, which are the greatest
    source of lead being dumped at random.
    Bill Baka

    Lead in electronics with rosin core solder was excellent. Substitutions are
    require more heat and will be very hard to work with for repairs. I wish
    you knew that. Lead in car batteries, yes, but are you going to ban
    batteries too?

  18. Mark Hickey said:


    The one that I've wanted to see is "If your mommy talks on the phone
    when she drives you to school, she doesn't love you very much".

    I suggested a billboard with that message, and had people offering to
    send money to help fund it! ;-)

    So, how much *is* a billboard these days? Maybe I could get my work to
    kick in a few bucks [1].

    [1] I work for Irevmbajveryrff. Hmmm, maybe not.

    --
    Dane Buson - [email hidden]
    "It's not true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it
    until it makes you weep." - Mavis in The Eye In The Pyramid

  19. george conklin said:

    "Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Just so you know, lead was banned in electronics, which makes for low
    reliability, but is still used in car batteries, which are the greatest
    source of lead being dumped at random.
    Bill Baka

    Lead in electronics with rosin core solder was excellent. Substitutions are
    require more heat and will be very hard to work with for repairs. I wish
    you knew that. Lead in car batteries, yes, but are you going to ban
    batteries too?

    Irrelevant - lead is not allowed in most electronic devices under the
    EU's RoHS directive, with a target date of July 1, 2006. You can find
    some of the details at <http://leadfree.ipc.org/RoHS_2-1-1.asp>.
    If you can't sell it, nobody is going to make it.

    See
    <http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=EN&numdoc=32002L0095&model=guichett>
    for full details, and note the exemptions for some special cases (some
    of which simply provide a time extension before the restriction
    becomes valid).

    In fact, the electronics and computer industry are taking this very
    seriously with large companies having internal programs to ensure
    RoHS compliance. Nobody wants to be in a situation where products
    cannot be sold in the EU.

    --
    My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

  20. "Mike Kruger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Floyd Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Claire Petersky" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote
    > Yes for big cities. No for suburbia.

    Kent lives in Issaquah, in deepest darkest suburbia, with his wife and
    two kids, carfree:

    http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=carless28e&date=20060528&query=kent+peterson


    FYI, this same article on Kent Peterson (of the Seattle suburbs) was
    reprinted in the Chicago Tribune today.
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0606060037jun06,1,1261240.story?track=rss

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