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Kilikini Needs Our Help

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
15 June 2006
Last activity
17 June 2006
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Damsel in dis Dress
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  1. Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    tert in seattle said:
    Quoted message said:

    tert in seattle <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > So far this story doesn't add up but I don't have all the details so
    > I'll wait before saying more.
    >
    > The NCI treats people for free on clinical trials. She'll have to
    > travel to and stay in Bethesda, MD though. Here's a link to Stage IV
    > breast cancer trials.
    >

    http://www.cancer.gov/search/ResultsClinicalTrials.aspx?protocolsearchid=
    2400267

    That's the best thing I've seen yet. :-)
    IME experimental/research treatments are having better outcomes than
    current "traditional" treatments.

    That may be your experience but standard therapy is better than
    experimental therapy overall. That's why it's standard.

    <cough>

    Very, very untrue!
    Standard therapy is what insurance companies will pay for.
    I'd suggest you do some research as to why that is currently not a good
    thing.

    I work in cancer research so I believe if either of us needs to bring
    himself up to speed on the topic it's you.

    I know most people don't understand statistics so I'm just going to say,
    IN GENERAL, and ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, the odds of getting some benefit
    from standard therapy are greater than the odds of going for experimental
    therapy right off the bat. If standard therapy doesn't work, then go
    experiment all you want. This approach comes from the fact that our
    understanding of which therapies will work in which patients is still
    pretty crude (but it's getting better).

    That being said, if you are being treated on a research protocol, you
    will likely be followed more diligently than if you were getting standard
    therapy. That means if something goes wrong there's a better chance of
    it being caught and properly diagnosed early. This has been studied ...
    I don't have a cite handy but I can dig around. It's also more evidence
    for the theory that we gain much more from early detection & prevention
    of disease than from intensive therapy once it's in an advanced state.

    If you're talking about alternative medicine, with diet, enemas, vitamins,
    chinese herbs, acupuncture, visualization, auras, heat therapy, etc etc
    etc, I don't know much about all that. I know that acupuncture is great
    for some stuff but I don't know about cancer. In general alternative
    medicine has not been taken seriously enough to go up against standard
    surgery/chemo/radiation in double blind phase 3 clinical trials. I'm
    guessing it's because the preclinical data are not there. In other words,
    if it doesn't work in a petri dish or in mice, it's never going to find its
    way into clinical trials. So we say it is not going to work better than
    standard chemo or radiation or surgery even though we're not 100% sure.
    Are there problems with this paradigm? Definitely. I do think
    alternative therapies should be studied more aggressively and I
    definitely think there should be a lot more serious consideration
    given to the affect a person's mind has on the body, and to integrating
    mind into the model of medicine far more than it is in Western medicine
    today.

    I truly wish there were natural, noninvasive ways to treat cancer -- I
    know what chemo, radiation, and surgery do to people. But I'm also a
    rational thinker and I understand science and statistics (I also understand
    cultural bias and take that into account) and in the balance I have to
    say that there's a reason why standard therapy for cancer is what it is,
    and while there are holes in that reason, it's a better reason than, for
    example, why 90% of computer desktops run Windows.

  2. "tert in seattle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    That being said, if you are being treated on a research protocol, you
    will likely be followed more diligently than if you were getting standard
    therapy. That means if something goes wrong there's a better chance of
    it being caught and properly diagnosed early. This has been studied ...

    It could be simple economics, which are not always the work of satan. Some
    drugs are submitted for testing by drug companies. I would assume they're
    watching closely not just for bad results, but also for good ones. Either
    way, it has to be better to receive MORE attention.


  3. Quoted message said:


    Gee, you should have gone to medical school. Then you would at least know
    how to capitolize letters in a sentence. Got anything useful to contribute
    to help kili?

    Jill

    (chuckle) It's not "capitolize", it's "capitalize"------------but
    nevermind, you're doing some good work here, trying to help kilikini.
    We needed that little laugh.

    Nancree

  4. Goomba38 <[email hidden]>
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Michael 'Dog3' Lonergan said:
    Quoted message said:

    Could YOU pay for cost of living plus health care on that?

    Even a single person making $14,000 a year would have a hard time
    existing on that income, let alone cover any health care costs.

    Motivation to get a better paying job!

    Personally I think one can have all the motivation in the world and still
    not land a better paying job. Many of my IT friends are working very low
    paying jobs due to massive layoffs from one of my former employers. Most
    of them are highly motivated but can find nothing because most, if not all
    of their education and experience is in IT. Either they take an IT job
    paying about 25% of what they are used to, go back to school or find a low
    paying job and go back to school. Some are holding onto hope the jobs will
    open up. Most of the others have taken low paying jobs and are getting an
    education in a different field.

    Michael

    --
    This is just too much fun to play with. The link is too long. It's on the
    NetZero site so the Tinylink below is safe. Take a look see.

    http://tinylink.com/?mtHxe7qRXe

  5. Goomba38 <[email hidden]>
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    Wait a min. We don't really KNOW what "has happened to Kili" Michael.
    We only have snippets of emotionally laden information from one side
    (or one and a half if you add Dem's interpretation).
    Before one jumps to any conclusions one needs to have all the facts.
    Just my humble opinion.
    Goomba

    I have been talking to her on the telephone on a daily basis. I pretty
    much know what is happening to her. She will know soon. Her diagnosis
    does not matter right this second. She has a massive mass that needs to be
    taken out. The mass is getting larger.

    Michael

    --
    This is just too much fun to play with. The link is too long. It's on the
    NetZero site so the Tinylink below is safe. Take a look see.

    http://tinylink.com/?mtHxe7qRXe

  6. "Michael "Dog3" Lonergan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Goomba38 <[email hidden]>
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    Wait a min. We don't really KNOW what "has happened to Kili" Michael.
    We only have snippets of emotionally laden information from one side
    (or one and a half if you add Dem's interpretation).
    Before one jumps to any conclusions one needs to have all the facts.
    Just my humble opinion.
    Goomba

    I have been talking to her on the telephone on a daily basis. I pretty
    much know what is happening to her. She will know soon. Her diagnosis
    does not matter right this second. She has a massive mass that needs to
    be
    taken out. The mass is getting larger.

    Thank you Michael

  7. Michael 'Dog3' Lonergan said:

    "jacqui{JB}" <[email hidden]>
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    I hope folks are taking this opportunity to write their
    congresscritters and state legislators -- I know I am (ex pat or no,
    I'm still a US citizen). -j

    Personally I'm hoping someone with the appropriate media contacts will


    take

    Quoted message said:

    this public. There is no excuse for what has happened to Kili. It's not
    just the working poor either. The elderly and disabled have a very hard
    time with insurance. Cobra is outrageously expensive for those that have
    been terminated from their jobs.

    This whole thread not only has me crying but has me feeling *very* ashamed
    of my country...

    --
    Best
    Greg

  8. OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    It takes too f-ing long to get BETTER therapies approved so being a test
    subject can save your life.

    I've watched too many cancer patients die horrible deaths from
    "standard" therapy over the years.
    There are better things in the works.
    --
    Peace!
    Om

    If you realtively young (late 50's) were diagnosed with esophageal
    cancer and stage-4 liver cancer would you choose to do clinmical trials
    of chemo?

    This is a real-life question (not me).

    -L.

  9. Quoted message said:
    Old Mother Ashby said:
    Dave Smith said:

    "Blair P. Houghton" wrote:



    ......................snipped

    Quoted message said:

    However, in this country it is unthinkable that anybody suffering


    from

    Quoted message said:

    cancer would be left to die in a ditch.

    Christine

    In the US too. That's why it all did not ring clear. We need to take
    deep breaths. There are options. There is no one dying in the ditch.
    We all [censored] about the insurance, but we pay it. A friend w/o
    insurance blew out her esophagus. Big horrible problem. No problem,
    she was ambulanced to local hospital, flown over (medical airplane
    with sevral nurses etc.) to Honolulu to the best hospital in the
    Pacific and it just happens to be a state hospitla, where a skilled
    surgeon operated and saved her life--rememebr no insurance--. Medicaid
    paid.

    That was an emergency and so it apparently got a high priority...the real
    crisis is in continuing care. If you don't have insurance or a lot of money
    folks can pretty much forget about getting adequate care for a chronic
    condition. The agencies that provide aid are overwhelmed and very often
    simply tapped - out.

    I've known of plenty of folks w/o insurance who died or are suffering
    terribly from chronic conditions, if they had received continuing care they
    would have had a chance. But that care was not available, so...

    [We have an excellent free county public hospital here in Chicago, but
    unless it's a dire, dire emegency, it's "take a number". You can wait for
    months or even years to see a specialist. People wait on line at the
    pharmacy for hours to get meds, only to find out that their particular med
    is unavailable that day, etc. As one of the staff doctors said, "We provide
    first - rate medical care but unfortunately it's 'first come - first served'
    "...]

    A number of these have been women with breast and other cancers, we've had
    plenty of fundraisers for them and some very generous folks have opened
    their hearts and pocketbooks for them, e.g. paying rent, footing medical
    bills, etc. If we hadn't done this for them I SHUDDER to think what might
    have happened. And untold thousands of such folks are encountering DIRE
    health circumstances every day...

    Even if a person qualifies for public aid or other charity assistance, there
    is often a cap. I had several friends die of AIDS years ago, when they
    reached their spending cap, they were sent home (to die). Since several of
    their families had virtually deserted them, we took it upon ourselves to
    care for them as best we could...

    Quoted message said:

    This is America- well a part of America🙂 and I just know that is why
    we pay taxes which is another [censored] but one we can be proud to
    contribute for the welfare of all.

    Would be nice if it were true. Right now I'm feeling pretty ashamed for
    America (at least re: medical care).

    --
    Best
    Greg

  10. JoeSpareBedroom said:

    "Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    JoeSpareBedroom said:


    How much do you make?

    More than you, and less than any greedy doctor who does less work:

    We'll leave the above guesses alone, since they're silly.

    The only silly thing was your fallacious implication that my pay had
    anything to do with it. Your entire participation in this thread has
    been a string of fallacies, from anecdotal evidence (which you first
    falsely accused me of with your dopey bread metaphor, then demonstrated
    yourself with your stories about your doctor experiences) to flat-out
    non sequiturs like this "how much do you make" nonsense.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://www.24hourfitness.com/html/corp_well/savings/cost/
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html

    Interesting articles.

    That's all you have to say for the fact that I'm right and you're
    wrong?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Doctors pretend to have the power of life and death...

    That has not been my experience. My doctor is very clear about what he can
    and cannot do. He rarely prescribes anything unless absolutely necessary. My
    son's pediatrician is the same way. I have insurance, but if I didn't, their
    office visits would cost about $50.00.

    Irrelevant anecdotal evidence.

    When your kid gets breast cancer and your bank account and insurance
    coverage don't reach the projected billing, tell us how your pleading
    for mercy goes. You'll be right back here asking for the list of
    resources we gave Kili.

    You're probably also underestimating what your pediatrician bills your
    insurance for. Five years ago the average doctor's office visit was
    $60. You can bet it's way up. And if your kid is ever sick and the
    doctor actually has to deviate from the boilerplate-and-lollipop
    routine, watch the number rocket.

    None of these stories has any bearing on the overwhelming evidence that
    doctors as a group get paid too much for what they do, lobby for the
    system to remain stacked in their favor, and have no problem with
    bankrupting you just because they know you are living in pain and fear.

    Quoted message said:

    I suspect that if your current tone is typical of the way you interact with
    everyone in your life, people may be hesitant to tell you about doctors they
    like.

    Another insulting and fallacious presumption.

    You're misreading my tone as badly as you're misinterpreting America's
    healthcare cost situation. And if you think that's because you are
    making an ad hominem attack against me, you're right. You presume I'll
    be abrasive, so you insert that tone into your head when reading my
    posts. Stop using irrationalities and insulting my intelligence, and
    start listening to reason, and that will go away.

    --Blair

  11. Gee, you should have gone to medical school. Then you would at least
    know

    Quoted message said:

    how to capitolize letters in a sentence. Got anything useful to contribute
    to help kili?

    Quoted message said:

    Jill

    (chuckle) It's not "capitolize", it's "capitalize"------------but
    nevermind, you're doing some good work here, trying to help kilikini.
    We needed that little laugh.

    Nancree

  12. "Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    JoeSpareBedroom said:

    "Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
    >
    > How much do you make?

    More than you, and less than any greedy doctor who does less work:

    We'll leave the above guesses alone, since they're silly.

    The only silly thing was your fallacious implication that my pay had
    anything to do with it. Your entire participation in this thread has
    been a string of fallacies, from anecdotal evidence (which you first
    falsely accused me of with your dopey bread metaphor, then demonstrated
    yourself with your stories about your doctor experiences) to flat-out
    non sequiturs like this "how much do you make" nonsense.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://www.24hourfitness.com/html/corp_well/savings/cost/
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html

    Interesting articles.

    That's all you have to say for the fact that I'm right and you're
    wrong?

    You're right about some doctors, but not all. When, during one's math
    education, is logic taught? I seem to recall 8th grade. I'll ask my son. If
    your teachers are still alive, you can sue them.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Doctors pretend to have the power of life and death...

    That has not been my experience. My doctor is very clear about what he
    can
    and cannot do. He rarely prescribes anything unless absolutely necessary.
    My
    son's pediatrician is the same way. I have insurance, but if I didn't,
    their
    office visits would cost about $50.00.

    Irrelevant anecdotal evidence.

    So, you're saying that my experience doesn't exist? Yes, or no. Are you
    saying that my experience doesn't exist?

    Yes, or no.

    Quoted message said:


    When your kid gets breast cancer and your bank account and insurance
    coverage don't reach the projected billing, tell us how your pleading
    for mercy goes. You'll be right back here asking for the list of
    resources we gave Kili.

    My insurance contracts say otherwise. They were reviewed by 3 different
    people. Thanks for the thought, though.

    Quoted message said:

    You're probably also underestimating what your pediatrician bills your
    insurance for. Five years ago the average doctor's office visit was
    $60. You can bet it's way up. And if your kid is ever sick and the
    doctor actually has to deviate from the boilerplate-and-lollipop
    routine, watch the number rocket.

    This game is so easy! A month or so after any doctor's visit, my insurer
    sends me a summary of what the doctor billed them. My internist bills
    $50.00. The dermatologist bills them somewhere around $75.

    Quoted message said:

    None of these stories has any bearing on the overwhelming evidence that
    doctors as a group get paid too much for what they do, lobby for the
    system to remain stacked in their favor, and have no problem with
    bankrupting you just because they know you are living in pain and fear.

    Other than the cost, do you have any first hand experience with receiving
    bad service from a doctor? Don't give me links to articles. I want to know
    about YOUR experience.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I suspect that if your current tone is typical of the way you interact
    with
    everyone in your life, people may be hesitant to tell you about doctors
    they
    like.

    Another insulting and fallacious presumption.

    You're misreading my tone as badly as you're misinterpreting America's
    healthcare cost situation. And if you think that's because you are
    making an ad hominem attack against me, you're right. You presume I'll
    be abrasive, so you insert that tone into your head when reading my
    posts. Stop using irrationalities and insulting my intelligence, and
    start listening to reason, and that will go away.

    In order to insult someone's intelligence, a certain condition must first
    exist.

  13. Michael 'Dog3' Lonergan said:

    Personally I'm hoping someone with the appropriate media contacts will take
    this public. There is no excuse for what has happened to Kili. It's not
    just the working poor either. The elderly and disabled have a very hard
    time with insurance. Cobra is outrageously expensive for those that have
    been terminated from their jobs.

    Michael

    Unfortunately it is all too common.

    Some people are really getting the short end. During the Clinton
    administration the rules were relaxed about how much retirement money
    must be held in trust. Previously companies had to fully fund the
    projected retirement.

    I have a family member who was productive all of his life. About a year
    before he retired his wife developed a serious illness but it was
    covered by his employer paid health plan. About a month before his
    retirement his employer filed bankruptcy mostly to be able to walk away
    from its responsibilities. After about 8 months it was determined there
    was only enough money to pay about 45% of his retirement and the
    bankruptcy also stopped the health plan.

    They now have significantly less income. No health plan will touch his
    wife because of her condition. He has developed serious medical issues
    and large out of pocket expenses after what medicare covers.

    It really is a kick in the face after working all of your life.

  14. Oh pshaw, on Sat 17 Jun 2006 01:27:05p, -L. meant to say...

    Quoted message said:


    OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    It takes too f-ing long to get BETTER therapies approved so being a test
    subject can save your life.

    I've watched too many cancer patients die horrible deaths from
    "standard" therapy over the years.
    There are better things in the works.
    --
    Peace!
    Om

    If you realtively young (late 50's) were diagnosed with esophageal
    cancer and stage-4 liver cancer would you choose to do clinmical trials
    of chemo?

    I would choose to do whatever might save or significantly prolong my life,
    including chemical trials. I probably would not try snake oil.

    Quoted message said:

    This is a real-life question (not me).

    I'm really sorry to hear that about anyone.

    --
    Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬
    _____________________

  15. tert in seattle said:

    Blair wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're another credulous tool of the
    lying special interests.

    Why not do a great service to your nation and take a vacation from
    Usenet? You've earned it.

    Stop projecting. It's lame.

    --Blair

  16. JoeSpareBedroom said:

    "Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > http://www.24hourfitness.com/html/corp_well/savings/cost/
    > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html

    Interesting articles.

    That's all you have to say for the fact that I'm right and you're
    wrong?

    You're right about some doctors, but not all. When, during one's math
    education, is logic taught? I seem to recall 8th grade. I'll ask my son. If
    your teachers are still alive, you can sue them.

    The statistics say that your anecdotal evidence is incorrect.

    This thread proves that I'm logical and you're not.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    My
    son's pediatrician is the same way. I have insurance, but if I didn't,
    their
    office visits would cost about $50.00.

    Irrelevant anecdotal evidence.

    So, you're saying that my experience doesn't exist? Yes, or no. Are you
    saying that my experience doesn't exist?

    I'm saying your experience is irrelevant. Look up the fallacy of
    anecdotal evidence.

    Quoted message said:

    Other than the cost, do you have any first hand experience with receiving
    bad service from a doctor? Don't give me links to articles. I want to know
    about YOUR experience.

    Look up anecdotal evidence. Demanding anecdotal evidence is even
    dumber.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Stop using irrationalities and insulting my intelligence, and
    start listening to reason, and that will go away.

    In order to insult someone's intelligence, a certain condition must first
    exist.

    Yes, I have intelligence, in enormous proportion compared with yours.

    Not only do you offer fallacies, you demand that others engage in them
    to satisfy your urge to be in control of the argument.

    You're ridiculous.

    --Blair

  17. "Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The statistics say that your anecdotal evidence is incorrect.

    I define anecdotal as information I didn't experience first hand. Sorry to
    burst your bubble, but my information is perfect.

  18. Michael 'Dog3' Lonergan said:

    "jacqui{JB}" <[email hidden]>
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    I hope folks are taking this opportunity to write their
    congresscritters and state legislators -- I know I am (ex pat or no,
    I'm still a US citizen). -j

    Personally I'm hoping someone with the appropriate media contacts
    will take this public. There is no excuse for what has happened to
    Kili. It's not just the working poor either. The elderly and
    disabled have a very hard time with insurance. Cobra is outrageously
    expensive for those that have been terminated from their jobs.

    Michael

    I wrote to Oprah Winfrey. If anyone actually reads her email someone might
    pay attention to her plight.

    Jill

  19. tert in seattle said:

    In general alternative
    medicine has not been taken seriously enough to go up against standard
    surgery/chemo/radiation in double blind phase 3 clinical trials.

    That's because voodoo doesn't have a thing to do with biochemistry.

    Quoted message said:

    Definitely. I do think
    alternative therapies should be studied more aggressively and I
    definitely think there should be a lot more serious consideration
    given to the affect a person's mind has on the body, and to integrating
    mind into the model of medicine far more than it is in Western medicine
    today.

    Cripes. New-age woo-woo cancer cures. Are you going to fix a flat
    tire with your mind, too? Your mind won't cure your cancer. The best
    it can do is reduce your stress level and in the small chance that your
    condition is on the verge, where the stress-related chemicals would
    have pushed you over the crisis and into mortality, that could make the
    difference.

    Quoted message said:

    I truly wish there were natural, noninvasive ways to treat cancer -- I
    know what chemo, radiation, and surgery do to people. But I'm also a
    rational thinker and I understand science and statistics (I also understand
    cultural bias and take that into account) and in the balance I have to
    say that there's a reason why standard therapy for cancer is what it is,
    and while there are holes in that reason, it's a better reason than, for
    example, why 90% of computer desktops run Windows.

    It's clear you're not a rational thinker, you're more credulous than
    even the salmon thing hinted at.

    Cancer is an induced error in the encoding of genetic mechanisms.
    Throwing random junk at it hoping something will work magically is
    19th-century medicine. The therapies that work do their work by
    destroying the cells that have the erroneous code without harming the
    rest of the body as badly as the cancer does.

    What's needed is fewer eye-of-newt trials eating up research money and
    more chemical engineering directed toward defining a proper means of
    stopping the growth of and repairing broken cells. By now we should be
    designing these drugs, not hoping we'll find them lying around in the
    forest.

    Think about it this way: you have a puzzle, and you're missing one
    piece to complete it. You can buy a random box of puzzle pieces on
    eBay and hope that one is the right piece. Or you can find the right
    piece of cardboard and cut it to fit. Which one is more certain?
    Which one is not certain at all?

    Until we start doing deterministic engineering on cancer, which may
    require having a specific tool for each kind of cancer, or may result
    in a means of resetting all our cells at once (now that'd be a hell of
    a thing), we're going to have cancer as a major problem.

    --Blair

  20. jmcquown said:

    I wrote to Oprah Winfrey. If anyone actually reads her email someone might
    pay attention to her plight.

    I never thought I'd hope Oprah would get personally involved in the
    problems of others, but I do.

    --Blair

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