Polite wrong-way riders

Rich Clark said:

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bob, out of respect for your honest intent and many years of
contributions
to the newsgroup, I'm going to assume you ask that /profoundly
stupid and offensive/ question because you're tired, or distracted,
or for some other
reason simply aren't thinking about what you're saying.

If you really mean to ask that question as written, please verify. I
wouldn't want to respond unless I was /absolutely sure/ you
intended it as
written.

RichC

The question was not directed to you but to Frank K. You may answer
it if you wish although since you've already categorized it as
profoundly stupid and offensive it seems pretty obvious to me that
any reply you make won't be an answer but a personal attack. Oh well.

Bob, I went out of my way to make crystal clear that I was commenting
on the words, not the person. If you can't see that, there's no point
in continuing. Likewise if you don't understand why anyone would have
a problem with your question.

Rich, Bob was making a point about stereotyping people based on one bad
experience. Besides the political turmoil of the '60s, there was also a lot
of racial tension in those days -- especially in large cities. (Growing up
in Washington, DC, I remember it well.)

What if you'd had a bad experience with a few African Americans in 1968?
Stuff like that happened, you know. Would you STILL "hear their voices"
almost 40 years later? Still have a chip on your shoulder about the
incident like it /sounds/ like you do re. cops?

You wrote: "As for the CPD, my most lasting impression was
formed in 1968 when an armed gang of them threw me bodily into the Lincoln
Park Lagoon for the crime of looking like a "hippie who needs a bath" during
the Democratic National Convention. I can still hear them laughing.

My interactions with most city cops in the years since has done nothing to
change my impression."

I think Bob's question is a valid one. If you substitute "black guys" for
"city cops", most people would think you unreasonable if not worse (bitter,
prejudiced, racist, unbalanced, whatever).

It was 38 years ago. Time to let it go.

Sorni

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It was 38 years ago. Time to let it go.

Important memories are important memories. This is one among hundreds of
experiences that have influenced me over the years. It's the one we're
talking about, which doesn't make it the only one or even the most important
one.

Bob is trying to paint me as being obsessed with it, because that makes it
easy for him to pigeonhole me as a "cop hater" and not address the real
issues.

Meanwhile, I was nearly taken out yesterday by a cop riding against the
traffic at 20th & The Parkway, a busy and complex three-way intersection in
Center City Philadelphia. He had the temerity to say "watch where you're
going" to /me./

It has been my experience that individual police officers do not consider
themselves answerable for their behavior to individual citizens. Is your
experience different?

RichC

Rich Clark said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

{All context removed}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It was 38 years ago. Time to let it go.

Quoted message said:

Important memories are important memories. This is one among hundreds
of experiences that have influenced me over the years. It's the one
we're talking about, which doesn't make it the only one or even the
most important one.

Bob is trying to paint me as being obsessed with it, because that
makes it easy for him to pigeonhole me as a "cop hater" and not
address the real issues.

He only went by what you wrote.

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, I was nearly taken out yesterday by a cop riding against
the traffic at 20th & The Parkway, a busy and complex three-way
intersection in Center City Philadelphia. He had the temerity to say
"watch where you're going" to /me./

It has been my experience that individual police officers do not
consider themselves answerable for their behavior to individual
citizens. Is your experience different?

I hardly ever have "run-ins" or even interactions with cops at all. (Last
time had to be many years ago with a bogus radar trap. The guy was a bit of
a [censored], IMO, but I don't project that on to anyone but him.)

Have you tried going over these "bike cops"' heads? Is anyone /else/
experiencing the same sorts of encounters you seem to be having on a regular
basis?

Next week on "Cops": Rich Clark and Bill Baka go on a bike ride together
and end up in the back of a squad car! LOL (Sorry.)

Hope it gets better... Bill

Rich Clark said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It was 38 years ago. Time to let it go.

Important memories are important memories. This is one among hundreds of
experiences that have influenced me over the years. It's the one we're
talking about, which doesn't make it the only one or even the most important
one.

Bob is trying to paint me as being obsessed with it, because that makes it
easy for him to pigeonhole me as a "cop hater" and not address the real
issues.

Meanwhile, I was nearly taken out yesterday by a cop riding against the
traffic at 20th & The Parkway, a busy and complex three-way intersection in
Center City Philadelphia. He had the temerity to say "watch where you're
going" to /me./

It has been my experience that individual police officers do not consider
themselves answerable for their behavior to individual citizens. Is your
experience different?

RichC

I promised you the last word but I'll respond to this because you're
ignoring the caveat, "... so long as you don't inaccurately
characterize what I've posted."
Once again you are imputing motives to me with no basis in what I've
written. The "real issue" I was addressing, indeed the *only* issue I
have addressed in our entire exchange in this thread, was and is simply
that if you mentally relive events from 38 years ago so vividly that
you can still hear the sounds of those events you should lighten up a
bit. That advice would remain the same no matter what memory you were
reliving. Do you know any 40 or 50-somethings that are still reliving
their high school glory days? Do you consider that healthy? We all
reminisce from time to time but if those reminiscences are so vivid
thay we hear the laughter of the bullies that threw us in a lagoon or
the roar of the crowd when we caught the winning touchdown pass in the
big game we run the twin risks of living in the past at the expense of
the present and of unconsciously reshaping past events until they
become more fiction than fact.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Rich Clark said:

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bob, out of respect for your honest intent and many years of
contributions
to the newsgroup, I'm going to assume you ask that /profoundly stupid and
offensive/ question because you're tired, or distracted, or for some
other
reason simply aren't thinking about what you're saying.

If you really mean to ask that question as written, please verify. I
wouldn't want to respond unless I was /absolutely sure/ you intended it
as
written.

RichC

The question was not directed to you but to Frank K. You may answer it
if you wish although since you've already categorized it as profoundly
stupid and offensive it seems pretty obvious to me that any reply you
make won't be an answer but a personal attack. Oh well.

Bob, I went out of my way to make crystal clear that I was commenting on the
words, not the person. If you can't see that, there's no point in
continuing. Likewise if you don't understand why anyone would have a problem
with your question.

RichC

It seems then that you don't think saying a question is "profoundly
stupid and offensive" is a personal attack on the person posing the
question. It also appears that you can't answer my question without
admitting that you are stereotyping an entire group of very diverse
people based on the actions of a few of that group's members 38 years
ago.
It seems then that we agree on one thing- further discussion of this
issue between you and I is pointless.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems then that we agree on one thing- further discussion of this
issue between you and I is pointless.

Yeah, I'm done.

RichC

Rich, during the Chicago police riots, you were the victim of a crime,
committed by some Chicago officers. That does not make the entire Chicago
Police Department guilty, nor all police officers in general. In the years
that have followed, you say that nothing has caused you to change your
attitude toward the police. Really?! Your experience must be totally
different from mine, then. I have been aided by police officers a few times,
and have never suffered any mistreatment. I'm not saying it never happens
We're still hearing the echoes of the "fajitagate" incident in San
Francisco, for example. I knew personally an officer who was racist and
brutal. (Clubbing a prisoner in handcuffs, for example.) But I don't
attach blame for his behavior to anyone else.

How do you feel about US soldiers in Iraq? Do the inexcusable crimes that
some have committed mean they are all guilty?

Rich Clark said:

It has been my experience that individual police officers do not consider
themselves answerable for their behavior to individual citizens. Is your
experience different?

My experience varies. Again, I have several friends who are cops and
ex-cops, including several bicycling buddies.

One is extremely intelligent, kindhearted to a fault, serves on many
important community boards, is regularly interviewed as an expert on
crime, and is liberal enough to drive Bob insane.

Another is a noted heardhead, who more than once has been given the
least desirable beat as punishment for, yet again, screwing up and
shooting his mouth off.

And there are many in between. The former would apologize for anything
he did wrong. The latter would get in a person's face. IOW, cop
behavior is a bell curve thing.

But I _do_ think the average for cops is "less answerable for their
behavior" than the average for other citizens. I think it's a normal
psychological reaction to their daily position of authority. (There
have been very interesting studies involving adults paid to "pretend"
to be guards and prisoners, showing that people are very quick to take
on the expected attributes of a role.)

FWIW, I had a notable experience three years ago, where I had to "talk
down" a cop who was being extremely angry and aggressive toward
cyclists who had done nothing wrong. It took a half hour of _very_
careful diplomacy, but I pulled it off, and we actually parted shaking
hands. Within two hours, we saw him demonstrating the same aggression
toward a truck driver he'd stopped.

I believe this guy was in the only job - besides drill sergeant - where
that attitude wouldn't get him fired.

- Frank Krygowski

Bob said:

Quoted message said:

You'd have impressed me more if you'd said more against the criminal
behavior of the cops, and less about telling the victim to get over it.

And before you respond, keep in mind I've got several good friends that
are cops and ex-cops. Based on our conversations, I think most of them
would agree with me.

- Frank Krygowski

I have never said that the events of 38 years ago at the Chicago DNC
were right and I don't know even one single person- cop or civilian-
that would disagree so why you think I should have said more about the
criminal behavior of the cops escapes me. Consider this though-
Reread Rich C's posts in this thread and substitute "black men" for
"cops". Would you still be attempting to take me to task for pointing
out that his reaction 38 years later is neither healthy nor reasonable?

Yes. I'd do it in the same way.

Had you simply said "What those cops did was inexcuseable, but you
shouldn't still obsess about it" you'd have appeared less biased to me.
It would have cost you nothing, and it would have made it clear that
you were not interested in defending criminal cops.

When a person is upset, there's much to be gained by acknowledging some
validity for his feelings, before continuing your "advice." If nothing
else, it make your advice more palatable and more likely to be
accepted.

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When a person is upset, there's much to be gained by acknowledging some
validity for his feelings, before continuing your "advice." If nothing
else, it make your advice more palatable and more likely to be
accepted.

- Frank Krygowski

And, as always, when dispensing unsolicited advice, wear a helmet.

Quoted message said:

Had you simply said "What those cops did was inexcuseable, but you
shouldn't still obsess about it" you'd have appeared less biased to me.
It would have cost you nothing, and it would have made it clear that
you were not interested in defending criminal cops.

When a person is upset, there's much to be gained by acknowledging some
validity for his feelings, before continuing your "advice." If nothing
else, it make your advice more palatable and more likely to be
accepted.

If after all this time in this NG you think I am interested in
defending criminal cops you haven't been paying attention. Further, if
after you read over both my and Rich C's posts you can honestly say you
think *I'm* the biased one then I'm afraid you and I are doomed to
disagree on this just as we seem to on every other subject under the
sun.

In the interest of finding some common ground though, let me try
this....

Warning! Do NOT read further if you don't yet know the results of Stage
3 of the TdF!

Kessler made one helluva ride, didn't he? His miscalculation on Stage 2
will now be a mere footnote to his nearly perfect timing on Stage 3. I
say nearly perfect because a storybook ending would have had him
winning by a wheel instead of several bike lengths.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Warning! Do NOT read further if you don't yet know the results of Stage
3 of the TdF!

Kessler made one helluva ride, didn't he? His miscalculation on Stage 2
will now be a mere footnote to his nearly perfect timing on Stage 3. I
say nearly perfect because a storybook ending would have had him
winning by a wheel instead of several bike lengths.

But did you see that traffic cop who almost forced a crash when he wouldn't
get out of the way?

RichC

(Note: That was self-mockery, for the satire-impaired.)

Rich Clark said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It was 38 years ago. Time to let it go.

Important memories are important memories. This is one among hundreds of
experiences that have influenced me over the years. It's the one we're
talking about, which doesn't make it the only one or even the most important
one.

Bob is trying to paint me as being obsessed with it, because that makes it
easy for him to pigeonhole me as a "cop hater" and not address the real
issues.

Meanwhile, I was nearly taken out yesterday by a cop riding against the
traffic at 20th & The Parkway, a busy and complex three-way intersection in
Center City Philadelphia. He had the temerity to say "watch where you're
going" to /me./

It has been my experience that individual police officers do not consider
themselves answerable for their behavior to individual citizens. Is your
experience different?

RichC

Same with me. They think the badge and gun make them superman and above
the law. Not all of them but the bad eggs stand out. Those are the times
I wish I had a spy camera hooked to a recorder in my pocket or to a
recorder nearby, just in case they decided to bust me for arguing with
them. It has gotten noticeably worse since 9/11. I went into the Social
Security office last year and there was a very bored looking guard with
gun sitting there. When I asked him what he was supposed to be guarding
he said he really didn't know but he was told to look for terrorists and
check everybody for metal that could be a gun. I mean, who is going to
try to rob a SS office, there is no money, and blowing it up would be
beneath any real terrorist. There were only 2 employees behind bullet
proof glass and he was pulled out of retirement to guard them.
Nuts.
Bill Baka

Bill Sornson said:

Rich Clark said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

{All context removed}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It was 38 years ago. Time to let it go.

Quoted message said:

Important memories are important memories. This is one among hundreds
of experiences that have influenced me over the years. It's the one
we're talking about, which doesn't make it the only one or even the
most important one.

Bob is trying to paint me as being obsessed with it, because that
makes it easy for him to pigeonhole me as a "cop hater" and not
address the real issues.

He only went by what you wrote.

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, I was nearly taken out yesterday by a cop riding against
the traffic at 20th & The Parkway, a busy and complex three-way
intersection in Center City Philadelphia. He had the temerity to say
"watch where you're going" to /me./

It has been my experience that individual police officers do not
consider themselves answerable for their behavior to individual
citizens. Is your experience different?

I hardly ever have "run-ins" or even interactions with cops at all. (Last
time had to be many years ago with a bogus radar trap. The guy was a bit of
a [censored], IMO, but I don't project that on to anyone but him.)

Have you tried going over these "bike cops"' heads? Is anyone /else/
experiencing the same sorts of encounters you seem to be having on a regular
basis?

Next week on "Cops": Rich Clark and Bill Baka go on a bike ride together
and end up in the back of a squad car! LOL (Sorry.)

Hope it gets better... Bill

I have already been escorted home thanks to the AFB security gorillas. I
sat in the front and exchanged stories with the sheriff.
I blame Bush.
Bill Baka

Bob said:

Rich Clark said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It was 38 years ago. Time to let it go.

Important memories are important memories. This is one among hundreds of
experiences that have influenced me over the years. It's the one we're
talking about, which doesn't make it the only one or even the most important
one.

Bob is trying to paint me as being obsessed with it, because that makes it
easy for him to pigeonhole me as a "cop hater" and not address the real
issues.

Meanwhile, I was nearly taken out yesterday by a cop riding against the
traffic at 20th & The Parkway, a busy and complex three-way intersection in
Center City Philadelphia. He had the temerity to say "watch where you're
going" to /me./

It has been my experience that individual police officers do not consider
themselves answerable for their behavior to individual citizens. Is your
experience different?

RichC

I promised you the last word but I'll respond to this because you're
ignoring the caveat, "... so long as you don't inaccurately
characterize what I've posted."
Once again you are imputing motives to me with no basis in what I've
written. The "real issue" I was addressing, indeed the *only* issue I
have addressed in our entire exchange in this thread, was and is simply
that if you mentally relive events from 38 years ago so vividly that
you can still hear the sounds of those events you should lighten up a
bit. That advice would remain the same no matter what memory you were
reliving. Do you know any 40 or 50-somethings that are still reliving
their high school glory days? Do you consider that healthy? We all
reminisce from time to time but if those reminiscences are so vivid
thay we hear the laughter of the bullies that threw us in a lagoon or
the roar of the crowd when we caught the winning touchdown pass in the
big game we run the twin risks of living in the past at the expense of
the present and of unconsciously reshaping past events until they
become more fiction than fact.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Maybe holding a grudge is unhealthy but some of those high school
memories are priceless. I remember being the smallest guy on the
football team and being a pass rusher, with my main job to take out the
quarterback. Once I was up against a 300 pounder and had the pleasure of
hitting him midsection so hard he couldn't get up for a few minutes.
That was my payback for him saying he was gonna squash my puny ass.
I had lots of little hassles with the cops and some big traffic tickets
but I don't hold a grudge over them since I did earn the tickets fair
and square. The cops often knocked off a few MPH for me, so they weren't
all bad.
Bill Baka

Leo Lichtman said:

Rich, during the Chicago police riots, you were the victim of a crime,
committed by some Chicago officers. That does not make the entire Chicago
Police Department guilty, nor all police officers in general. In the years
that have followed, you say that nothing has caused you to change your
attitude toward the police. Really?! Your experience must be totally
different from mine, then. I have been aided by police officers a few times,
and have never suffered any mistreatment. I'm not saying it never happens
We're still hearing the echoes of the "fajitagate" incident in San
Francisco, for example. I knew personally an officer who was racist and
brutal. (Clubbing a prisoner in handcuffs, for example.) But I don't
attach blame for his behavior to anyone else.

How do you feel about US soldiers in Iraq? Do the inexcusable crimes that
some have committed mean they are all guilty?

War stress and temporary insanity are something else again. Cops deal
with a lot of [censored], but they have to remember that they are dealing with
US citizens (mostly) and not an enemy whose only concern is to try to
kill them.
Bill Baka

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have already been escorted home thanks to the AFB security gorillas. I
sat in the front and exchanged stories with the sheriff.
I blame Bush.
Bill Baka

You should thank Bush. The AFB cops wanted to handcuff you and beat the
[censored] out of you, but Bush called them and told them to let you ride in the
front.

Rudolf Schmidt said:

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have already been escorted home thanks to the AFB security gorillas. I
sat in the front and exchanged stories with the sheriff.
I blame Bush.
Bill Baka

You should thank Bush. The AFB cops wanted to handcuff you and beat the
[censored] out of you, but Bush called them and told them to let you ride in the
front.

I was on a public road and I am a third generation American, actually
more like 100th if you count my Indian Great, great grandmother.
Actually if they had laid a hand on me it would have made a real nice
front page news piece and I could always use the money from a serious
law suit. They are there to protect us from those big bad terrorists,
not to terrorize us themselves.
Bush====Barf.
Another Viet Nam.
Bill Baka

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kessler made one helluva ride, didn't he? His miscalculation on Stage 2
will now be a mere footnote to his nearly perfect timing on Stage 3. I
say nearly perfect because a storybook ending would have had him
winning by a wheel instead of several bike lengths.

Do you think he succeeded because he was able to get over the profound and
ignominious humiliation he suffered the previous day at the hands of the
chase group that nullified his attack?

Bob said:

If after all this time in this NG you think I am interested in
defending criminal cops you haven't been paying attention. Further, if
after you read over both my and Rich C's posts you can honestly say you
think *I'm* the biased one then I'm afraid you and I are doomed to
disagree on this just as we seem to on every other subject under the
sun.

:-) From what I can tell, you and I agree on more than you think, even
if it doesn't necessarily come out in these discussions. There are
lots of threads I read, but don't comment on.

But no, I don't think you defend criminal cops. I just think you'd
have been better off making that clear with a few words in your post.
It would have placated Rich a bit, and would have reinforced your moral
standing, so to speak. Keep in mind, there are always new readers
lurking.

Incidentally, I agree that Rich shouldn't obsess about the jerk cops
who dunked him. However, neither you nor I know what he's seen since.
It really is possible for someone to repeatedly run into a bad cop or
two. If he was unlucky enough to have that happen, it would repeatedly
reinforce his negative impressions of cops, and make it difficult to
"let go."

Your job can be difficult and nasty, I know. Mine has probably been
far more pleasant. But both of us, being somewhat in the public eye
and somewhat in positions of authority, are going to encounter people
who judge us by reference to the baggage they carry.

Sometimes it's good to show them a bit of sympathy, that's all.

- Frank Krygowski