fit question: heels hit chainstays

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

thanks,
-Dion

Is she very small? Or large? My size 50's hit the stays
microscopically, but I have plenty of clearance to the crank. If she is
not super-small she could probably just move the cleats inward a bit to
get her feet further out. If she is super small that migh make for a
wide stance that was uncomfortable or at worst a strain on her knees.

Joseph

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

thanks,
-Dion

Dear Dion,

Cleats, maybe.

Moving the saddle is just trying to straighten her bow-legged probl--

Er, moving the saddle is unlikely to be a comfortable solution and
might only make her knees or hips hurt.

Narrower chainstays?

Wider wi--

Er, wider crank with more Q-factor? Or knee-savers?

http://www.bikemania.biz/Knee_Savers_s/125.htm

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

The easiest most effective thing to try is to change the
angle of the cleats so that the heels are further out.

The other thing that may also help is to get a wider
bottom bracket, a 7-10mm longer bottom bracket spindle
should make some difference. This will make the crank wider.

-A

On 11 Jul 2006 said:

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

thanks,
-Dion

Dear Dion,

Cleats, maybe.

Moving the saddle is just trying to straighten her bow-legged probl--

Er, moving the saddle is unlikely to be a comfortable solution and
might only make her knees or hips hurt.

Narrower chainstays?

Wider wi--

Er, wider crank with more Q-factor? Or knee-savers?

http://www.bikemania.biz/Knee_Savers_s/125.htm

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aman said:

The easiest most effective thing to try is to change the
angle of the cleats so that the heels are further out.

The other thing that may also help is to get a wider
bottom bracket, a 7-10mm longer bottom bracket spindle
should make some difference. This will make the crank wider.

A wider bottom bracket will not fix her rubbing on the crank arms. I find
I do much better with cranks that do not have a straight arm (like old
Campy cranks), but which have a bent shape. This keeps my ankles from
hitting the crank arm at the bottom bracket, and would also help her get
her feet away from the stays.

As someone else suggested, "knee savers" (pedal extensions) will also
help. If she is not really heavy, or very strong, then they should work
OK.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize
_`\(,_ | our educational system and that in a few years it will supplant
(_)/ (_) | largely, if not entirely, the use of textbooks -- Thomas
Edison, 1922

Aman said:

The easiest most effective thing to try is to change the
angle of the cleats so that the heels are further out.

Unless Dion put on the cleats in a random way, this is a bad advice.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Lou Holtman said:

Aman said:

The easiest most effective thing to try is to change the
angle of the cleats so that the heels are further out.

Unless Dion put on the cleats in a random way, this is a bad advice.

If this woman has a normal bike and normal feet, she should not be
hitting the stays. I have seen people with hypermobile ankles hit the
stays when given too much pedal float. I can practically land on top
of my stays when I have my Look pedals set at maximum float. The OP
should look at the float and the cleat placement. The cleat placement
may be way out of whack, too, and his wife might be one of those
suffering spouses who just lives with out of whack position on the
bike. -- Jay Beattie.

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

It sounds like she rides very heels-in/toes-out. If that's her "natural'
angle, then it's a bad idea to try to change it.

A neutral change would be to move the cleat as far back as possible on
the shoe.

Since her shoes are also rubbing the cranks, it may be that the cleats
are mounted too far outboard. The usual starting point for cleat
mounting is along an imaginary line from toe center to heel center and
as far back as possible.

Peter Cole said:

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

It sounds like she rides very heels-in/toes-out. If that's her "natural'
angle, then it's a bad idea to try to change it.

A neutral change would be to move the cleat as far back as possible on
the shoe.

Yeah.

But it's worth mentioning that it's possible that she has some general
biomecanical problems that cause her to pedal that way. If she has no
pains with her knees or hips or ankles, then as Peter said it's
probably best not to mess with her cleat angle. BUT if she also has
problems in one of those joints, it's quite possible that addressing
that problem (with therapy or strength training or orthotics or
stretching, depending on the problem) might let her ride with her feet
straighter ahead.

Worth thinking about.

JT

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Quoted message said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the
chainstays of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where
she's wearing through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the
cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

thanks,
-Dion

Possibly none of the above. In general, your feet should go where your THEY
want to go, not be forced to go where it would be convenient. Moving the
cleats might not keep her heels from hitting the crank, unless they're set
in such a way that the foot cannot be angled that far inward. But that might
be where her foot wants to be.

It's very unusual for women to have this issue, since in general women have
relatively-small feet, which means they interface with the chainstays at a
point where they're further away from the foot than would be the case for
someone with a larger foot.

Likewise, saddle positioning (both height and setback) are correct when set
up for comfortable and efficient pedaling; anything else is at best a
compromise that would be better off not made, all things being equal.

HOWEVER, it's possible that her saddle & cleat position aren't where they
should be anyway. I would get those things checked out and adjusted as need
be, and then see where things stand (as far as heels hitting the
chainstays). Could be that correct positioning will eliminate it anyway.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

She has Speedplay X series (non-floating) pedals. The only adjustment is
fore-aft and side-to-side. Her bike is 54cm and she's 5'5", so we're not
dealing with extremes in size.

I was wondering if a low saddle might cause her feet to travel out/in to
take up some of the extra bend in her legs.

thanks,
-Dion

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lou Holtman said:

Aman said:

The easiest most effective thing to try is to change the
angle of the cleats so that the heels are further out.

Unless Dion put on the cleats in a random way, this is a bad advice.

If this woman has a normal bike and normal feet, she should not be
hitting the stays. I have seen people with hypermobile ankles hit the
stays when given too much pedal float. I can practically land on top
of my stays when I have my Look pedals set at maximum float. The OP
should look at the float and the cleat placement. The cleat placement
may be way out of whack, too, and his wife might be one of those
suffering spouses who just lives with out of whack position on the
bike. -- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

She has Speedplay X series (non-floating) pedals. The only adjustment is
fore-aft and side-to-side. Her bike is 54cm and she's 5'5", so we're not
dealing with extremes in size.

The X-series is completely floating, not fixed. Your foot goes any danged
place it wants to, which is generally a good thing. Forcing your foot to go
elswhere (as in setting the cleats up so you cannot move the heel far enough
inward to clip the chainstay) may cause knee issues. That's not to say that
she might have a leg issue that could be corrected by using an angled shim
etc.

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if a low saddle might cause her feet to travel out/in to
take up some of the extra bend in her legs.

It's somewhat academic whether a low saddle position might cause that.
What's important is that she get set up properly *regardless.* If there's a
question about her seat height or setback, she should get properly fit,
heel-hitting-chainstay-or-not.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Dion Dock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

She has Speedplay X series (non-floating) pedals. The only adjustment is
fore-aft and side-to-side. Her bike is 54cm and she's 5'5", so we're not
dealing with extremes in size.

I was wondering if a low saddle might cause her feet to travel out/in to
take up some of the extra bend in her legs.

thanks,
-Dion

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lou Holtman said:

Aman wrote:
>
> The easiest most effective thing to try is to change the
> angle of the cleats so that the heels are further out.

Unless Dion put on the cleats in a random way, this is a bad advice.

If this woman has a normal bike and normal feet, she should not be
hitting the stays. I have seen people with hypermobile ankles hit the
stays when given too much pedal float. I can practically land on top
of my stays when I have my Look pedals set at maximum float. The OP
should look at the float and the cleat placement. The cleat placement
may be way out of whack, too, and his wife might be one of those
suffering spouses who just lives with out of whack position on the
bike. -- Jay Beattie.

Dion Dock said:

She has Speedplay X series (non-floating) pedals. The only adjustment is
fore-aft and side-to-side. Her bike is 54cm and she's 5'5", so we're not
dealing with extremes in size.

I was wondering if a low saddle might cause h er feet to travel out/in to
take up some of the extra bend in her legs.

Maybe but it doesn't really help extend the legs anyway. She would have
to have some problem with her knees that was helped by that.

If she is wearing through the chainstay, it must be carbon, not metal.
That's not a good situation. Maybe it will break sooner rather than
later and you will need a new frame and you can get one tailor made out
of metal in a way to take care of this problem.

The real problem though is that the cleat on the non-floating pedals is
set at a bizarre and extreme angle. Why? Who set it up that way? Was it
a mistake, or does she need it that way?

If you just get a longer spindle in the bottom bracket, it will change
the chainline, perhaps to the point of being annoying. You can try
shimming out the pedals some I suppose, or for an expensive solution,
get a crank set that has a wider stance (wider tread or Q-factor). But
the real problem is the extreme angle of the cleats.
Å

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

I've had this problem for ever. Moving the cleat to where it fastens
at the instep closest positon might work. Installing washers between
the pedals and crankarm helps. I've used up to 3 mm washers. For the
Shimano MTB line of pedals, clip in point on is about 3 mm further
away from the crank than with Shimano road pedals. I don't know this
to be true for other brands. The selection of shoe matters.
Sometimes making the shoe tighter on the foot allows the cleat to
position the cleat better because the foot doesn't wiggle in the shoe.

Dion Dock said:

She has Speedplay X series (non-floating) pedals. The only adjustment is
fore-aft and side-to-side. Her bike is 54cm and she's 5'5", so we're not
dealing with extremes in size.

I was wondering if a low saddle might cause her feet to travel out/in to
take up some of the extra bend in her legs.

thanks,
-Dion

X serie non floating?
Put the saddle higher and find out.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

HOWEVER, it's possible that her saddle & cleat position aren't where they
should be anyway. I would get those things checked out and adjusted as need
be, and then see where things stand (as far as heels hitting the
chainstays). Could be that correct positioning will eliminate it anyway.

Well, here's another thought. If she's using MTB shoes that have a lot
of heel AND she doesn't mind compromising the walkability, one might
consider trimming down the heel on the inside. I imagine that is what's
hitting the chainstays.

Yes, yes, I know it's daft. The question is, is it daft enough to work?

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
Be careful! Evolving species on board

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

thanks,
-Dion

Hi,

A couple of people have mentioned that the pedal-shoe combo your wife
uses is floating. A more radical idea might be to go to fixed-angle
cleats (but take care that you get the foot-pedal angle right).

Disclaimer for the standard arguments pro and con, regarding fixed angle
cleats and potential knee pain. Much written about this previously and I
don't want to start that war again.

I myself have knee trouble so I (paradoxically, some would say) use
*fixed* not floating angle cleats, which actually improves the situation
for me.

When I use my beater bike with SPD (floating angle) pedals I hit the
chain stays quite a lot. My knees complain a bit too. But this is with a
Shimano MTB shoe, which has a wideish heel.

Look and Campagnolo both provide fixed angle cleats, there may be
others. My current road bike setup is Sidi / Campag.

Just a thought, in case the other solutions give no joy.

/Robert

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robert said:

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

thanks,
-Dion

Hi,

A couple of people have mentioned that the pedal-shoe combo your wife
uses is floating. A more radical idea might be to go to fixed-angle
cleats (but take care that you get the foot-pedal angle right).

Disclaimer for the standard arguments pro and con, regarding fixed angle
cleats and potential knee pain. Much written about this previously and I
don't want to start that war again.

I myself have knee trouble so I (paradoxically, some would say) use
*fixed* not floating angle cleats, which actually improves the situation
for me.

When I use my beater bike with SPD (floating angle) pedals I hit the
chain stays quite a lot. My knees complain a bit too. But this is with a
Shimano MTB shoe, which has a wideish heel.

Look and Campagnolo both provide fixed angle cleats, there may be
others. My current road bike setup is Sidi / Campag.

Just a thought, in case the other solutions give no joy.

I adopted a posture with my knees brought in so they only
miss the top bar. This puts the least strain on my knees,
and incidentally moves my heels outward.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robert said:

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

thanks,
-Dion

Hi,

A couple of people have mentioned that the pedal-shoe combo your wife
uses is floating. A more radical idea might be to go to fixed-angle
cleats (but take care that you get the foot-pedal angle right).

Disclaimer for the standard arguments pro and con, regarding fixed angle
cleats and potential knee pain. Much written about this previously and I
don't want to start that war again.

I myself have knee trouble so I (paradoxically, some would say) use
*fixed* not floating angle cleats, which actually improves the situation
for me.

When I use my beater bike with SPD (floating angle) pedals I hit the
chain stays quite a lot. My knees complain a bit too. But this is with a
Shimano MTB shoe, which has a wideish heel.

Look and Campagnolo both provide fixed angle cleats, there may be
others. My current road bike setup is Sidi / Campag.

Just a thought, in case the other solutions give no joy.

I adopted a posture with my knees brought in so they only
miss the top bar. This puts the least strain on my knees,
and incidentally moves my heels outward.

Interesting that you should mention this idea, with the knee closer to
the bar. As my knees have gotten stronger I've been daring to do this
more. It's probably more efficient pedalling too, with the knee not
flapping outward. /Robert

Paul Kopit said:

Dion Dock said:

What might be some things you would adjust if your heels hit the chainstays
of your bike? This is happening to my wife to the point where she's wearing
through the stays! Her shoes also make contact with the cranks.

For example:
* Move cleats?
* Raise saddle?
* Move saddle forward?

I've had this problem for ever. Moving the cleat to where it fastens
at the instep closest positon might work. Installing washers between
the pedals and crankarm helps. I've used up to 3 mm washers. For the
Shimano MTB line of pedals, clip in point on is about 3 mm further
away from the crank than with Shimano road pedals. I don't know this
to be true for other brands. The selection of shoe matters.
Sometimes making the shoe tighter on the foot allows the cleat to
position the cleat better because the foot doesn't wiggle in the shoe.

Likewise, same problem. Even when standing, my toes point outwards a
bit.

Assuming the the OP has checked that the rider has the angle of the
cleats set correctly for her, and the problm still persists...

I found that Shimano SPD-SL cleats can be moved considerably from side
to side on the shoe, without altering the angle of the cleat relative
to the shoe. The 5mm or so extra space outwards that this gave me,
combined with a racing shoe with a narrow heel, means I can now clear
both the crank and the chainstays, though both still get "polished".
In my case, this was enough to avoid using washers or knee-savers.

I also put a piece of clear sticky-back plastic on the chainstay at the
relevant position to prevent damage to the paint and resulting
corrosion (steel frame) - I think these are normally used to prevent
cable outers from wearing through paint where they pass near the frame,
eg around the head tube.

hth,

bookieb.