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LVM breaks hour record

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Road Cycling
Published
1 October 2003
Last activity
12 October 2003
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Tony
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  1. [email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: Ewoud Dronkert [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    4 m more than Ercole Baldini in 1956...

    A nice perspective! But the corrected distance of 46.065 puts her right in between Coppi (1942,
    45.871) and Anquetil (1956, 46.159).

    That can't be right. TK says even the best women can only compete with Cat3 men. I think they
    faked the results. There's no way an elite female athlete could've even come close. Must be one
    of those affirmative action thing where they added 10% distance, yeah that's got to be it. Bill C

    I'd bet a good Cat. 3 of today could beat Anquetil's mark.

  2. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ronald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    I said:
    Quoted message said:

    and in fact the helmet she wore doesn't even appear to be the one that wind tunnel testing
    indicated was the fastest!

    I recall her saying in an interview on Dutch tv that they tried several


    helmets in the windtunnel and that the old style helmet she

    Quoted message said:

    was wearing actually turned out to be very aero (she was surprised


    herself).

    The pics of her from the wind tunnel show her wearing an old Brancale plastic shell (which I used
    to use myself). That does not appear to be what she wore for the actual record performance.

    Dumbass -

    She may have tried more than one helmet in the wind tunnel. That's usually what they do: try
    different things.

  3. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass -

    I agree.

    Cat 3 is not a very high level (unless you ask warren or gwhite).

    Maybe back in the stone age when you were a Cat 3 the races weren't very fast.

    Was that back when there were only *3* senior categories in total?

    In one of our local crits here in Florida (Dade City crit), I timed the laps of the Pro, 1, 2 race
    and had someone else time the laps of the Cat. 3s. The lap times were *almost* the same. Actually
    the Cat 3s were faster, but we were only racing 40 minutes + 5 laps, instead of 60 minutes + 5
    laps that the
    1/2s did. The same applied to the Masters 30+ race. A little faster, but not as long as Pro/1/2s.

    - Boyd S.

  4. "Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I'd bet a good Cat. 3 of today could beat Anquetil's mark.

    Damn, that's pathetic.

  5. "Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass -

    I agree.

    Cat 3 is not a very high level (unless you ask warren or gwhite).

    Maybe back in the stone age when you were a Cat 3 the races weren't very fast.

    Was that back when there were only *3* senior categories in total?

    In one of our local crits here in Florida (Dade City crit), I timed the


    laps

    Quoted message said:

    of the Pro, 1, 2 race and had someone else time the laps of the Cat. 3s.


    The

    Quoted message said:

    lap times were *almost* the same. Actually the Cat 3s were faster, but we were only racing 40
    minutes + 5 laps, instead of 60 minutes + 5 laps that


    the

    Quoted message said:

    1/2s did. The same applied to the Masters 30+ race. A little faster, but


    not

    Quoted message said:

    as long as Pro/1/2s.

    Dumbass -

    I upgraded out of 3 in '95. I think there were 5 categories then, but not sure.

    It doesn't really matter though. Cat 3s are the ones not good enough to be Cat 2s. Cat 2s are the
    ones not good enough to be Cat 1s. Cat 3 is nothing great - you can get there by experience upgrade.

    Face it, you suck.

    There's nothing to be ashamed of in sucking. It's better than being self-importantly delusional.

  6. "benjo maso" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    In 1952 Coppi did the climb to Alpe d'Huez in 45'22". That means that Coppi - in spite of his
    much heavier bicycle and a road which wasn't asphalted yet - would have finished in the stage to
    l'Alpe d'Huez this year 23th, 6'20" after Iban Mayo. Is a UC Cat3 capable of doing that? I really
    doubt it.

    Benjo Maso


    Question: Did the 1952 climb of the Alpe d'Huez finish at the same altitude, that is at around 1845
    m a.s.l, as in the modern-day Tour de France? Given that the ski resort in question has expanded
    over the last fifty years, there's the possibility that the 1952 finish was somewhat lower, say
    around 1760-1780 m, in which case, for the comparison to make sense, you would have to add something
    like 2.5-3 minutes to Coppi's time.

    --
    Roy Ellefsen

  7. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I'd bet a good Cat. 3 of today could beat Anquetil's mark.

    Damn, that's pathetic.

    Fitness in the 50/60's was nowhere near what it is today. Anquetil set his first hour record after
    drinking into the early hours in a nightclub. Any fully fit top rider today, using Anquetil's
    pedaling technique could add kms to the hour record. Do UCI rules restrict the minimum width of the
    normal drop bars for the record attempt.

  8. Kurgan Gringioni said:

    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ronald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    I said:

    > and in fact the helmet she wore doesn't even appear to be the one that wind tunnel testing
    > indicated was the fastest!

    I recall her saying in an interview on Dutch tv that they tried several


    helmets in the windtunnel and that the old style helmet she

    Quoted message said:

    was wearing actually turned out to be very aero (she was surprised


    herself).

    The pics of her from the wind tunnel show her wearing an old Brancale plastic shell (which I used
    to use myself). That does not appear to be what she wore for the actual record performance.

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass -

    Quoted message said:

    She may have tried more than one helmet in the wind tunnel. That's usually what they do: try
    different things.

    Eikel,

    There is a better picture at velonews: velonews.com5054.6282.f.jpg

    The helmet that she is wearing is almost certainly not the one referred to in the Dutch press, which
    has to have been the Brancale. My guess is that the one she wore for the attempt is one that came
    close to the Brancale in the wind tunnel and that she found more comfortable.

    Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Boyd Speerschneider said:

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass -

    I agree.

    Cat 3 is not a very high level (unless you ask warren or gwhite).

    Maybe back in the stone age when you were a Cat 3 the races weren't very fast.

    Was that back when there were only *3* senior categories in total?

    In one of our local crits here in Florida (Dade City crit), I timed the laps of the Pro, 1, 2 race
    and had someone else time the laps of the Cat. 3s. The lap times were *almost* the same. Actually
    the Cat 3s were faster, but we were only racing 40 minutes + 5 laps, instead of 60 minutes + 5
    laps that the
    1/2s did. The same applied to the Masters 30+ race. A little faster, but not as long as Pro/1/2s.

    This is totally not a surprise. First off, crits do not necessarily reward top speed like TTs do
    (you can fairly assume that in most TTs, everyone is giving a maximal effor the whole way; giving
    maximal effort all the way in a crit is not a general winning strategy).

    Second, pack tactics may well dictate much different speeds. When I was racing the local training
    crits this year, novice men started about 30 seconds before novice women. One race the men came out
    of the gate like panicky racehorses, and we caught the women within a lap or two. Another time,
    everyone sandbagged at the start, and we spent the first third of the race going back and forth with
    the novice women.

    It's fairly rare that a crit race will be run all-out by anyone unless there's a breakaway group
    that manages to push hard.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  10. "n crowley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in


    message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I'd bet a good Cat. 3 of today could beat Anquetil's mark.

    Damn, that's pathetic.

    Fitness in the 50/60's was nowhere near what it is today. Anquetil set his first hour record
    after drinking into the early hours in a nightclub. Any fully fit top rider today, using
    Anquetil's pedaling technique could add


    kms

    Quoted message said:

    to the hour record. Do UCI rules restrict the minimum width of the normal drop bars for the record
    attempt.

    Dumbass -

    We're talking about Cat 3s here. Guys who aren't even the best riders in their own town.

  11. Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    This is totally not a surprise. First off, crits do not necessarily reward top speed like TTs do
    (you can fairly assume that in most TTs, everyone is giving a maximal effor the whole way; giving
    maximal effort all the way in a crit is not a general winning strategy).

    Second, pack tactics may well dictate much different speeds. When I was racing the local training
    crits this year, novice men started about 30 seconds before novice women. One race the men came
    out of the gate like panicky racehorses, and we caught the women within a lap or two. Another
    time, everyone sandbagged at the start, and we spent the first third of the race going back and
    forth with the novice women.

    It's fairly rare that a crit race will be run all-out by anyone unless there's a breakaway group
    that manages to push hard.

    Our measurements were averages.
    IE., time the total time of the race divided by the # of laps. Is it not fair to say that a race
    that is harder would generally be run at a faster average pace?

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Boyd Speerschneider said:

    Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    This is totally not a surprise. First off, crits do not necessarily reward top speed like TTs do
    (you can fairly assume that in most TTs, everyone is giving a maximal effor the whole way;
    giving maximal effort all the way in a crit is not a general winning strategy).

    Second, pack tactics may well dictate much different speeds. When I was racing the local
    training crits this year, novice men started about 30 seconds before novice women. One race the
    men came out of the gate like panicky racehorses, and we caught the women within a lap or two.
    Another time, everyone sandbagged at the start, and we spent the first third of the race going
    back and forth with the novice women.

    It's fairly rare that a crit race will be run all-out by anyone unless there's a breakaway group
    that manages to push hard.

    Our measurements were averages.
    IE., time the total time of the race divided by the # of laps. Is it not fair to say that a race
    that is harder would generally be run at a faster average pace?

    No. Tactical considerations mean that higher-cat riders don't gain much in general by racing any
    faster than low-cat riders. It may be that a high-cat race has a relatively low average speed,
    followed by a demon sprint at the end. Conversely, a low-cat race make feature an early break and a
    chasing pack for a high average speed.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  13. "Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Our measurements were averages.
    IE., time the total time of the race divided by the # of laps. Is it not fair to say that a race
    that is harder would generally be run at


    a

    Quoted message said:

    faster average pace?

    Goddamm, you're stupid.

    The Cat 4 crit can be faster than the average speed of the TdF (average speed is usually around
    40km/hr, 24mph).

    Therefore, the Cat 4s are as good as Div 1 professionals.

  14. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    No. Tactical considerations mean that higher-cat riders don't gain much in general by racing any
    faster than low-cat riders. It may be that a high-cat race has a relatively low average speed,
    followed by a demon sprint at the end. Conversely, a low-cat race make feature an early break and
    a chasing pack for a high average speed.


    True - look at European pro races compared to amateur races. The amateurs are quite often faster,
    but for shorter distances. The pro's sometimes cruise along at 30 km/h for 2 hours then go ballistic
    for another 2-3 hours. The average speed ends up being 38 or something, but it's still a brutally
    hard race.

    Also in higher grades there tends to be more attacking and slowing down until the pack breaks up.
    This is very hard racing, but doesn't lead to a high average speed.

    The size of the field is important too: If a 100 rider Cat. 3 field averages the same as a 30 rider
    Cat. 1 field, the latter race will usually be harder. Big pelotons can move very fast.

    From personal experience, lower grades averaging faster speeds than higher grades is the rare
    exception rather than the norm. I found that there was about a 2 km/h difference in graded races in
    Australia, with the A graders almost always having the top average speed.

    Do they run time based handicap races in America? Maybe it's an Australian phenomenon, but there's a
    regular handicap crit in Sydney in summer that is split into three grades. 2 km circuit, 15 laps
    total, C grade gets a bit more than a lap headstart on A grade, while B grade gets about 3/4 of a
    lap start. A grade is always the smallest grade but also the fastest, and often catches the other
    two grades if there is sufficient cooperation (not a given...). And when A grade does catch the
    lower grades, a couple of B graders generally hang on but that's generally it.

    (I'd say B grade is roughly equivalent to Cat. 3 in the US. A grade = Pro/1/2/, and C grade = all
    the rest.)

    Jeff

  15. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    No. Tactical considerations mean that higher-cat riders don't gain much in general by racing any
    faster than low-cat riders.

    Thank you. I mean really, why is this so hard to understand?

    It may be that a

    Quoted message said:

    high-cat race has a relatively low average speed, followed by a demon sprint at the end.

    This is especially true between 3s and up vs. 2s and lower. The reason is that the 3s and up
    normally race weekends only. The lower the category, the more frequently you race. In these cases,
    the early portion of a race when there is not tactical advantage to sprinting from the gun the way
    that racers that compete less frequently do. There seems to be a higher adrenal response for those
    that race less frequently. This seems natural, eh? If you want to see the real performance
    difference between categories, go to the district championships and look at time trial speeds.

    Conversely, a low-cat race make feature an early

    Quoted message said:

    break and a chasing pack for a high average speed.

    Yep. This is expected because of nervous energy (adrenaline) and lack of tactical savvy.

    Quoted message said:


    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  16. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Goddamm, you're stupid.

    Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment 😉

    Quoted message said:

    The Cat 4 crit can be faster than the average speed of the TdF (average speed is usually around
    40km/hr, 24mph).

    Quoted message said:

    Therefore, the Cat 4s are as good as Div 1 professionals.

    You're comparing apples to oranges. I'm comparing to relatively same size fields racing on the same
    course on the same day. If they averaged faster over the same course with the same size field on the
    same day... you do the math.

    - Boyd S. forgot what the point of this conversation was some time ago

  17. "Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Goddamm, you're stupid.

    Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment 😉

    Quoted message said:

    The Cat 4 crit can be faster than the average speed of the TdF (average speed is usually around
    40km/hr, 24mph).

    Quoted message said:

    Therefore, the Cat 4s are as good as Div 1 professionals.

    You're comparing apples to oranges. I'm comparing to relatively same size fields racing on the
    same course on


    the

    Quoted message said:

    same day. If they averaged faster over the same course with the same size field on


    the

    Quoted message said:

    same day... you do the math.

    Dumbass -

    The point that everyone is trying to explain to you is that average speed doesn't mean [censored].

  18. Kurgan Gringioni said:

    "Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Here is another comparison - the Fat Masters Hour Record.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    LZVM rode 93.3% of Bostick's distance and Bostick is an exceptional rider. (I know, Bostick did
    it in Manchester, but so what. Going to Mexico City is part of the dedication necessary, just
    like training.)

    Quoted message said:

    Those guys used aero equipment. LVM did not (retro rules).

    Well, my apologies to LVM for thinking those guys would have come close to her without technological
    assistance. That makes the comparison with Bostick even more impressive.

    They should have to give back their Fat Masters Hour Record jerseys, or at least earn them
    over again.

    BTW, what exactly is the Fat Masters Hour Record rainbow jersey? I think it might be
    nashbar.comprofile moreimages.cfm

    In keeping with the rules for time trial champion jerseys, can it be worn only during hour
    record attempts?

  19. Jeff Jones said:

    (I'd say B grade is roughly equivalent to Cat. 3 in the US. A grade = Pro/1/2/, and C grade = all
    the rest.)

    Corresponds with what I feel about A/B/C grade racing in New Zealand as well. STF

  20. Yeah, but what we really need to know is this: is she hot? Because hottitude times watts/kg to the
    category squared is the real measure of a rider. Andy Coggan said so. Thus, Leontien is by far and
    away the best bike racer on the planet.

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