1 minutes power work. How do I compare??

There's no doubt your efforts are AC (L6) efforts. As an alternative approach to L6 efforts, I do my AC (or AWC) efforts closer to 3mins in duration, mainly because I like to do efforts at durations that fit into my performance testing protocol (3-30mins) for purposes of using the Critical Power Model. For a discussion of the pros and cons of using different durations for performance testing, you might find this interesting cyclingforums.comshowpost.phpOpen ↗. Now, one can ride a 60sec effort at much higher intensity than a 180sec effort, but I prefer the greater cumulative minutes of L6 effort I can achieve with 180sec efforts. Either way, they (60sec and 180sec) are both well into the L6 range and are well separated from neuromuscular and VO2MAX efforts. FWIW, I don't ride them at my max power for the duration unless I am doing a performance test. Rather, I ride them at ~90% of my max power for the duration. As to which approach will result in the greatest improvement of AC, I don't know that it is predictable.

[quote="BlueJersey"]I am trying to improve my AC since I don't train a lot on it and 150% of my FT effort during a hilly race tends do "destroy" me. I went out and did 2x10 1 minutes on/off power work.


How long are those efforts in a hilly race that "destroys" you? What level are you at immediately before them? And after?

OP, your interval:rest above is 1:1?

Try to mix it up with a day of 1:3 but bump the power up to 500W or 200% of your FT. These will be totally peak efforts, but you need to spend some time at that power. Maybe start with 45s intervals and jump hard into the effort like an attack in a race.

I was dropped the second time up the KOM climb in Housatonic. I guess my form was good enough to make the selection with the main group but didn't have the endurance or depth to last till the last climb. The group was putting out something like 5.5w/kg. For me, 340w. I was grasping for air and HR must have been sky rocketed.

I also did Union Vale too. I had a bad day for sure. Didn't have the form. I wasn't able to recover from the 3 minutes effort at 340w going up the false flat. When we get to the last climb of the first lap, I just gave up. Mentally and physically I wasn't able to dig deeper.

[quote="WarrenG"]

BlueJersey said:

I am trying to improve my AC since I don't train a lot on it and 150% of my FT effort during a hilly race tends do "destroy" me. I went out and did 2x10 1 minutes on/off power work.

How long are those efforts in a hilly race that "destroys" you? What level are you at immediately before them? And after?

BlueJersey said:

I was dropped the second time up the KOM climb in Housatonic. I guess my form was good enough to make the selection with the main group but didn't have the endurance or depth to last till the last climb. The group was putting out something like 5.5w/kg. For me, 340w. I was grasping for air and HR must have been sky rocketed.

I also did Union Vale too. I had a bad day for sure. Didn't have the form. I wasn't able to recover from the 3 minutes effort at 340w going up the false flat. When we get to the last climb of the first lap, I just gave up. Mentally and physically I wasn't able to dig deeper.

Your answer isn't quite what I was asking, but it sounds like 1' on/off is not the answer to what you lacked in those two races.

3' at 340w is not easy, but I think you may need to work on that level for 2' to-4' each on a hill or slight upgrade, rest easy for 4-5', times 3-4 repetitions. Getting experience in that range for 2-4' (instead of only 1'😉 will also help with your confidence when you face something similar in the races.

You could also try doing 3-5' near your FTP then 2-3' at 300-330w, rest 4-5' and repeat a few times. You'll probably find these quite tough so maybe do them only once every 2 weeks or so. Alternate with the 2-4' version with easy rests.

If you think the climbs will usually be about this long, then I would suggest you stick with this volume and do what ever power you can, even if it's less than the 320-340, and gradually increase your power during the weeks.

I notice one of your intervals was well over 400w. Try to avoid going over by that much because you'll pay for that in your later efforts/intervals.

Since you mention HR, on occassion, when I think I'm near my limit in a race, I glance at HR and if it's not within 10bpm of my MHR I am convinced I can do more. IOW, before you quit (assuming you're just not having any fun at all) see if your HR is below that, indicating that you could do more.

Food for thought-motivation... I'm borrowing this from a sports psychology CD I have called "The Ultimate Cyclist"...

Most of us live with a mantra of, "I would, if I could".
Replace that with, "I can."

It does seem it would help me if I can sustain 120%+ of my FT for more than 2 to 3 minutes. I couldn't but to notice I was constantly in the low to mid 300w+ when going up these hills. For Union Vale, after I got dropped, I was able to finish the race with another rider. I was feeling OK as long as I didn't spend a lot of time above 300w. We were pretty much doing a team TT for 2 laps. I don't rain or race with a HRM.

WarrenG said:

Your answer isn't quite what I was asking, but it sounds like 1' on/off is not the answer to what you lacked in those two races.

3' at 340w is not easy, but I think you may need to work on that level for 2' to-4' each on a hill or slight upgrade, rest easy for 4-5', times 3-4 repetitions. Getting experience in that range for 2-4' (instead of only 1'😉 will also help with your confidence when you face something similar in the races.

You could also try doing 3-5' near your FTP then 2-3' at 300-330w, rest 4-5' and repeat a few times. You'll probably find these quite tough so maybe do them only once every 2 weeks or so. Alternate with the 2-4' version with easy rests.

If you think the climbs will usually be about this long, then I would suggest you stick with this volume and do what ever power you can, even if it's less than the 320-340, and gradually increase your power during the weeks.

I notice one of your intervals was well over 400w. Try to avoid going over by that much because you'll pay for that in your later efforts/intervals.

Since you mention HR, on occassion, when I think I'm near my limit in a race, I glance at HR and if it's not within 10bpm of my MHR I am convinced I can do more. IOW, before you quit (assuming you're just not having any fun at all) see if your HR is below that, indicating that you could do more.

Food for thought-motivation... I'm borrowing this from a sports psychology CD I have called "The Ultimate Cyclist"...

Most of us live with a mantra of, "I would, if I could".
Replace that with, "I can."

Yes, is 1 to 1.

Spunout said:

OP, your interval:rest above is 1:1?

Try to mix it up with a day of 1:3 but bump the power up to 500W or 200% of your FT. These will be totally peak efforts, but you need to spend some time at that power. Maybe start with 45s intervals and jump hard into the effort like an attack in a race.

BlueJersey said:

Yes, is 1 to 1.

The way that I do AWC intervals is with a 5 - 7 minute recovery period between each effort. I am completely maxed out on every interval.

My thought about these is that I have an aerobic tank. I need to empty it every interval and allow it to fill up as much as possible during the recovery periods. I then empty it again. Doing these repetitively causes the tank to expand...

If the recovery period is too short, each subsequent interval becomes more and more aerobic. If this is the goal, fine. But remember, if you do this, you are not stressing the anaerobic system...

My favorite is a little hill that takes about 1 1/2 minutes to climb and I recover on the way back down. I typically am about 140 - 150 % of FTP for the on portion. I have worked up from 4 1/2 minutes total time to 16 1/2 minutes total time.

This not only helps with the hard efforts during a race, but also helps drop the recovery time after said efforts.

As I said, this is just me...

There is more than 1 way skin a cat...

Jim

BlueJersey said:

It does seem it would help me if I can sustain 120%+ of my FT for more than 2 to 3 minutes. I couldn't but to notice I was constantly in the low to mid 300w+ when going up these hills. For Union Vale, after I got dropped, I was able to finish the race with another rider. I was feeling OK as long as I didn't spend a lot of time above 300w. We were pretty much doing a team TT for 2 laps. I don't rain or race with a HRM.

You know, when reading this and your previous quote:

[quote="BlueJersey"]I was dropped the second time up the KOM climb in Housatonic. I guess my form was good enough to make the selection with the main group but didn't have the endurance or depth to last till the last climb. The group was putting out something like 5.5w/kg. For me, 340w. I was grasping for air and HR must have been sky rocketed. [QUOTE]

I am curious how hard you were working.

could you forward the following information:

1. your NP for the race up to the drop
2. your NP for the 20 minutes leading up to the drop
3. your avg for the 5 mnutes leading up to the drop

Jim

otb4evr said:

The way that I do AWC intervals is with a 5 - 7 minute recovery period between each effort. I am completely maxed out on every interval.

My thought about these is that I have an aerobic tank. I need to empty it every interval and allow it to fill up as much as possible during the recovery periods. I then empty it again. Doing these repetitively causes the tank to expand...

If the recovery period is too short, each subsequent interval becomes more and more aerobic. If this is the goal, fine. But remember, if you do this, you are not stressing the anaerobic system...

My favorite is a little hill that takes about 1 1/2 minutes to climb and I recover on the way back down. I typically am about 140 - 150 % of FTP for the on portion. I have worked up from 4 1/2 minutes total time to 16 1/2 minutes total time.

I agree that there's more than one way to skin a cat, but here's a question: many of the comments I've seen lead me to believe that it's unlikely that one's AC could be completely depleted in 1.5 minutes, so why allow the full tank recovery time? I assumed the short recovery time recommendation was to basically allow the alactacid recovery to occur, then go straight at it again before the lactacid recovery can be completed. It would seem to me that a progression like that would allow a portion of the oxygen deficit from each interval to build upon each other, in effect prompting the body to increase the size of the tank. I'll freely admit that I'm not an authority on this stuff by any means, however.

Someone needs to do a study on this stuff... 😉

frenchyge said:

I agree that there's more than one way to skin a cat, but here's a question: many of the comments I've seen lead me to believe that it's unlikely that one's AC could be completely depleted in 1.5 minutes, so why allow the full tank recovery time?

I recover that long, so that I can go just as hard next time. I start with a 3/4 sprint and end up dropping wattage slowly the whole interval. I would think that "something" is being depleted with this protocol, as I can not go any harder... 🙂

frenchyge said:

I'll freely admit that I'm not an authority on this stuff by any means, however.

Someone needs to do a study on this stuff... 😉

I am not an authority either, but it seems to work well for me...

Jim

otb4evr said:

I recover that long, so that I can go just as hard next time. I start with a 3/4 sprint and end up dropping wattage slowly the whole interval. I would think that "something" is being depleted with this protocol, as I can not go any harder... 🙂

What's going on is that only part of the AWC energy source (alactacid) is recovering. With a 30s half-life recovery rate, it will almost fully recover in ~3mins. The other part (lactacid) has a very slow recovery rate (hours) and it probably doesn't matter whether you wait another few minutes or not. So, the reason you have a progressive decline in either power or duration for subsequent efforts is that you have a progressive decrease in your available AWC energy. I think.😄

RapDaddyo said:

What's going on is that only part of the AWC energy source (alactacid) is recovering. With a 30s half-life recovery rate, it will almost fully recover in ~3mins. The other part (lactacid) has a very slow recovery rate (hours) and it probably doesn't matter whether you wait another few minutes or not. So, the reason you have a progressive decline in either power or duration for subsequent efforts is that you have a progressive decrease in your available AWC energy. I think.😄

That makes sense.

And as you train it, it becomes more "resistant to fatigue"...

🙂

otb4evr said:

That makes sense.

And as you train it, it becomes more "resistant to fatigue"...

🙂

Correct. And, I think you have the right analogy in viewing AWC as a (separate) gas tank. The objective of AWC (or AC) efforts is to increase the size of the tank. I do not think one has to focus on a specific power/duration combination to increase the size of the tank sufficiently to handle the power/duration combination in events. But, from a psychological perspective, it can give one confidence that he/she can handle a known effort that occurs in his events (e.g., a 1min hillclimb at 400W). And, of course, it is the repetition of AWC efforts that eventually does us in (because our tank is getting progressively more empty with each effort). So, if one views his AWC as a strategic advantage, he wants to force his competitors to drain their AWC tanks until eventually they can't respond.

So, I would suggest that it is best to mix it up. Do 120% FT intervals 1:1 or 1:2 to limit recovery. And, mix it up with some 200% full recovery 1:3 or longer intervals.

Two things we need to do: Repeat efforts without full recovery, and perform absolute maximal efforts repeatedly(to do maximal efforts, you need to be recovered). When we're training for racing, the athletes making the split in (some) races are those that attack hard and attack often.

60 minutes NP is 240w.
Till dropped NP is 226. I hour and 51 minutes.
Best 5 minutes power is 310w np and 283w ap.
7 1 minutues++ match burnt in the range of 330w to 390w.
9 less than a minutes match burnt in the above power range.

For the rest of the race, I didn't even touch 300w at all.

[quote="otb4evr"]You know, when reading this and your previous quote:

[quote="BlueJersey"]I was dropped the second time up the KOM climb in Housatonic. I guess my form was good enough to make the selection with the main group but didn't have the endurance or depth to last till the last climb. The group was putting out something like 5.5w/kg. For me, 340w. I was grasping for air and HR must have been sky rocketed.

Quoted post said:

I am curious how hard you were working.

could you forward the following information:

1. your NP for the race up to the drop
2. your NP for the 20 minutes leading up to the drop
3. your avg for the 5 mnutes leading up to the drop

Jim

Here are a few good plans. 1km 140% FT 1km Recovery repeat for as long as possible until your power goes under 140%. You could be looking at a very LONG session

Another one is 5x 1min efforts with 1km recovery. Do 2 sets of those so in effect you are doing 10x 1min efforts.

Dont look at the PM for these efforts just try and destroy yourself, have a look at the wattage on the Computer afterwards and see how quickly the wattage drops off between each effort.

The key will be to go as hard as possible on ALL efforts.

BlueJersey said:

60 minutes NP is 240w.
Till dropped NP is 226. I hour and 51 minutes.
Best 5 minutes power is 310w np and 283w ap.
7 1 minutues++ match burnt in the range of 330w to 390w.
9 less than a minutes match burnt in the above power range.

For the rest of the race, I didn't even touch 300w at all.

You said you had enough power to make the selection, yet got dropped when the group accelerated up the incline. Looking at your list of AC work from the first post, it looks as if you have good short-term power. Plus, because you did them in a 1:1 ratio, you seem to have good recovery.

This doesn't appear to be a case of you lacking anaerobic capacity...

Your highest 1 hour NP says you did a 1 hour TT during the middle of the race. This, I feel, is why you were not able to hang on when the pace picked up.

I think you should do what you can to raise your FTP. If you do this, you will have to work less during the rest of the race, so that you can conserver energy when the harder efforts start flying in the latter part of the race.

Make sense?

Jim

otb4evr said:

You said you had enough power to make the selection, yet got dropped when the group accelerated up the incline. Looking at your list of AC work from the first post, it looks as if you have good short-term power. Plus, because you did them in a 1:1 ratio, you seem to have good recovery.

This doesn't appear to be a case of you lacking anaerobic capacity...

Maybe, on a one-time basis, but without a full match analysis it's not clear that he has sufficient anaerobic capacity for the repeated efforts. The issue is, what was his depleted anaerobic capacity at the time of the last match that did him in? Basically, what is his "fresh" anaerobic capacity (# of matches) and how many matches did he burn before getting dropped? I think that would be revealing, which is why I built the match analysis app.