Disappointed by Dura-Ace

I have 150 miles on DA 10sp. I love it shifts much faster, less pressure required to shift and less
travel to shift. (then 9sp) Before you judge it, try it. Oh ya, the larger brake hoods are more
comfortable.

"Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is anyone else disappointed by Dura-Ace 10sp? Shimano always brags about their innovation, but I
see no innovation at all in Dura-Ace 10sp. Just high prices for a product that will not make me go
any faster or enjoy riding my bicycle any more. It seems that all the components are just
*SLIGHTLY* better versions of Dura-Ace 9sp. That might be fine if the prices were just *SLIGHTLY*
higher, but they are ridiculous.

So, where is the innovation? Shifter cables routed under the tape? Electronic shifting? More
carbon and titanium parts, less cheap aluminum? Ceramic bearings? Where is it? This stuff is [censored]
for how much it costs.

In rec.bicycles.tech Eric Lambi said:

Is anyone else disappointed by Dura-Ace 10sp? Shimano always brags about their innovation, but I
see no innovation at all in Dura-Ace 10sp. Just high prices for a product that will not make me go
any faster or enjoy riding my bicycle any more. It seems that all the components are just
*SLIGHTLY* better versions of Dura-Ace 9sp. That might be fine if the prices were just *SLIGHTLY*
higher, but they are ridiculous.

Quoted message said:

So, where is the innovation? Shifter cables routed under the tape? Electronic shifting? More
carbon and titanium parts, less cheap aluminum? Ceramic bearings? Where is it? This stuff is [censored]
for how much it costs.

I have to ask what you were expecting. Bicycles are not like computers where every year you can get
one that goes 50% faster. 9 speed was an incremental improvement over 8 speed, etc., and cost a lot
on first introduction without making you go significantly faster.

It costs a lot because even "cheap" aluminum costs to protoype and forge (hey, some of us used to
have bikes with lots of steel parts) and more importantly, because there are lots of people waiting
to see what DA 10sp will be like, and a significant number who will have to have it, yesterday.

Yesterday at my LBS they got a Trek Madone, with complete DA10. We had the crank apart within a few
minutes. What an impressive piece of engineering, the bearings are so far outside now, combined with
a hollowed axle and arms this thing rocks.

If it weren't for the high price of being bleeding edge, I'd unload my Ultegra and get it.

"Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is anyone else disappointed by Dura-Ace 10sp? Shimano always brags about their innovation, but I
see no innovation at all in Dura-Ace 10sp. Just high prices for a product that will not make me go
any faster or enjoy riding my bicycle any more. It seems that all the components are just
*SLIGHTLY* better versions of Dura-Ace 9sp. That might be fine if the prices were just *SLIGHTLY*
higher, but they are ridiculous.

So, where is the innovation? Shifter cables routed under the tape? Electronic shifting? More
carbon and titanium parts, less cheap aluminum? Ceramic bearings? Where is it? This stuff is [censored]
for how much it costs.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

MG said:

If it weren't for the high price of being bleeding edge, I'd unload my Ultegra and get it.

Here I saw the D-A group for 1200 Euros (without hubs).How much is it in the US?

Greets, Derk

Benjamin Weiner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3f8264eb$1@darkstar>...

Quoted message said:

I have to ask what you were expecting. Bicycles are not like computers where every year you can
get one that goes 50% faster. 9 speed was an incremental improvement over 8 speed, etc., and cost
a lot on first introduction without making you go significantly faster.

The Law of Diminishing Returns is in action here.

I remember when 5 speed freewheels were replaced by 6 speeds. The extra cog did come in handy; an
extra high or low gear or closing up a gap between gears made a noticible difference. Going from 6
to 7 cogs also was nice; not as big a deal as 5=>6 but still nice. The move from 7 to 8 already
seemed dubious to me. 7 speeds allowed for straight blocks for criteriums and even clusters for
hilly road races didn't have bad gaps. Going from 8 to 9 already seemed like overkill to
me. I understand that 10 speed chains and clusters wear out more quickly than 9 speed so I
personally don't know why people want it. I assume that eventually 9 speed gear will become
hard to find so we will be forced to upgrade but for the time being 9 is plenty of cogs IMNSHO.
--
Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - DMSP, a M/A/R/C Group company

I don't have to try it to judge it because there is little difference between 9 and 10sp. I've never
had an issue with shift travel or pressure, so forgive me if I'm less than enthused. I admit
everything will work better, but it is ridiculously expensive. Maybe it will get cheaper when it
isn't new, but I doubt it will get enough cheaper to make me happy (~price of DA 9sp).

What makes me even more upset though is that they stop making DA 9sp immediately (except for the
triple version, which they will stop making as soon as there is a 10sp triple version -- do you
really need 30 gear combinations?) Shimano is leaving everyone high and dry.

I guess I don't care that much, from what I read they make some good coversion cassettes that put
Campy 10sp on a Shimano spline. I'll just move to Campy as my silent protest against Shimano's lack
of innovation and inflated prices.

"Monty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have 150 miles on DA 10sp. I love it shifts much faster, less pressure required to shift and
less travel to shift. (then 9sp) Before you judge it, try it. Oh ya, the larger brake hoods are
more comfortable.

"Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is anyone else disappointed by Dura-Ace 10sp? Shimano always brags about their innovation, but I
see no innovation at all in Dura-Ace 10sp. Just high prices for a product that will not make me
go any faster or enjoy riding my bicycle any more. It seems that all the components are just
*SLIGHTLY* better versions of Dura-Ace 9sp. That might be fine if the prices were just
*SLIGHTLY* higher, but they are ridiculous.

So, where is the innovation? Shifter cables routed under the tape? Electronic shifting? More
carbon and titanium parts, less cheap aluminum? Ceramic bearings? Where is it? This stuff is
[censored] for how much it costs.

Quoted message said:

I have to ask what you were expecting.

I think I listed some things they could have done in my original post. These were ideas I thought of
in 10s while writing the post . . . given that DA 9sp came out in 1997, they have had 6 years to
come up with better ideas, so yes, I was expecting more. Maybe I'll apply for a job at Shimano, I
think I could help.

Quoted message said:

It costs a lot because even "cheap" aluminum costs to protoype and forge

I work for a software company that specializes in making digital prototypes of mechanical systems
before these things actually exist. I have no sympathy for a company that would use "prototyping
costs" as an excuse to charge excessive amounts of money for cheap aluminum parts.

In article <[email hidden]>, Eric Lambi

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It costs a lot because even "cheap" aluminum costs to protoype and forge

I work for a software company that specializes in making digital prototypes of mechanical systems
before these things actually exist. I have no sympathy for a company that would use "prototyping
costs" as an excuse to charge excessive amounts of money for cheap aluminum parts.

I bet Shimano also makes use of considerable CAD/CAE tools as well, and they charge what the market
will bear. When you own the market it will bear a great deal.

--Paul

(Eric Lambi) said:

Is anyone else disappointed by Dura-Ace 10sp? Shimano always brags about their innovation, but I
see no innovation at all in Dura-Ace 10sp. Just high prices for a product that will not make me go
any faster or enjoy riding my bicycle any more. It seems that all the components are just
*SLIGHTLY* better versions of Dura-Ace 9sp. That might be fine if the prices were just *SLIGHTLY*
higher, but they are ridiculous.

just wait for the 11 speed then you can get it cheep (G)

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See
knight-toolworks.comknight-toolworks.comOpen ↗ For prices and ordering instructions.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Is anyone else disappointed by Dura-Ace 10sp? Shimano always brags about their innovation, but I
see no innovation at all in Dura-Ace 10sp. Just high prices for a product that will not make me go
any faster or enjoy riding my bicycle any more. It seems that all the components are just
*SLIGHTLY* better versions of Dura-Ace 9sp. That might be fine if the prices were just *SLIGHTLY*
higher, but they are ridiculous.

That's the way things usually work. The parts slowly evolve. Ocassionally you will get a major
change, like STI, but not very often.

Quoted message said:

So, where is the innovation? Shifter cables routed under the tape?

Not an inovation. Campy already does it.

Quoted message said:

Electronic shifting?

Do you really want to depend on a battery for your shifting? Battery dies, you are SOL.

Quoted message said:

More carbon and titanium parts, less cheap aluminum?

Aluminum works fine for most parts and weighs less than titanium.

Quoted message said:

Ceramic bearings?

why bother? The gains, at best, are miniscule.

Quoted message said:

Where is it? This stuff is [censored] for how much it costs.

No one is forcing you to buy it.

(Eric Lambi) said:

What makes me even more upset though is that they stop making DA 9sp immediately (except for the
triple version, which they will stop making as soon as there is a 10sp triple version -- do you
really need 30 gear combinations?) Shimano is leaving everyone high and dry.

The bicycle business is turning into a service industry like the inkjet printer business. The goals
of these businesses are:

(a) Take big chunks of the bicycle and "systemize" them so that once a customer, always a customer.

(b) Take significant parts of the bicycle, and weaken the quality of the durable good and turn it
into a non-durable good. Examples include chains, freewheels, and chainrings. Also campy record
levers probably agree.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

Eric Lambi said:

Quoted message said:

I have to ask what you were expecting.

Quoted message said:

I think I listed some things they could have done in my original post.

But none of that stuff: ceramic bearings, carbon/titanium parts, electronic shifting will make you
go significantly faster. Will it help you enjoy riding your bike more? That depends on the rider. It
wouldn't for me. Stock Shimano shifts quite well so I don't see much to be gained from electronic
shifting. If one likes having the newest gadgets it's important. People for whom having the newest
gadgets is really important will pay for it, and that was my original point.

Quoted message said:

These were ideas I thought of in 10s while writing the post . . . given that DA 9sp came out in
1997, they have had 6 years to come up with better ideas, so yes, I was expecting more. Maybe
I'll apply for a job at Shimano, I think I could help.

Shimano is generally pretty conservative, although they have had some wacky ideas over the years (AX
pedals, 10mm chain). Campy Record has more of the glitzy bits like carbon and titanium. Maybe Campy
does indeed fit you better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It costs a lot because even "cheap" aluminum costs to protoype and forge

Quoted message said:

I work for a software company that specializes in making digital prototypes of mechanical systems
before these things actually exist. I have no sympathy for a company that would use "prototyping
costs" as an excuse to charge excessive amounts of money for cheap aluminum parts.

Somebody has to make the part (and forging has higher startup costs than CNC machining) and then it
has to be tested for strength and fatigue, and somebody has to ride it, a lot. Shimano can't just
introduce a new crank design and then wait for Lance and the customers to test whether it breaks in
use. That was effectively what a lot of the trick CNC mtb parts guys did (Topline, etc). They're out
of business now.

I don't think Shimano is using prototyping costs as an excuse - they're simply charging for the
privilege of early adoption. IMO, much of the CF/Ti that replaces "cheap aluminum" is jewelry. Not
that there's anything wrong with jewelry.

Quoted message said:

I bet Shimano also makes use of considerable CAD/CAE tools as >well, and they charge what the market
will bear. When you own the market it will bear a great deal.

I don't know whether they use any CAE software or not, but I'm sure they make heavy use of CAD . And you are right on the second point also, they are charging what they think people will pay, not what these things have cost to develop and manufacture. I hope they are wrong on price, otherwise bicycles are going to get much more expensive, especially when all the other component groups move to 10sp as well.

Quoted message said:

Not an inovation. Campy already does it.

Obviously. Maybe I should say improvement then.

Quoted message said:

Do you really want to depend on a battery for your shifting? >Battery dies, you are SOL.

You must not carry an extra tube with you when you go ride.

Quoted message said:

Aluminum works fine for most parts and weighs less than
titanium.

Fair enough. I suppose it depends on what "works fine" means. AL seems to do a good enough job, but it's fatigue life is most definitely lower and it is also more prone to damage from impacts.

Quoted message said:

<about ceramic bearings> why bother? The gains, at best, are
miniscule.

Can you please point me to some reliable information about how miniscule these gains would be. I am interested.

Quoted message said:

No one is forcing you to buy it. [/B]

[/quote]

Not right now they aren't. What about 3 years from now when I need a new bike and it costs $500 more than the same bike would have with DA 9sp. Or better yet, what about when I crash and break my STI levers next April and have to go pay a premium off eBay because no bike shops (local or online) can get them anymore. Either that, or upgrade the RD, STI and all my cogsets.

I hope everyone is right and it gets cheaper. I would be interested if anyone remembers how much DA 9sp cost when it first came out compared to what it costs now. I do not remember it seeming nearly as unreasonable . . . I know I got a LeMond Maillot Jaune OCLV frameset in 1997 w/ DA 9sp for $1700 (I had a discount from my sponsoring shop).

"Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't have to try it to judge it because there is little difference between 9 and 10sp. I've
never had an issue with shift travel or pressure, so forgive me if I'm less than enthused. I admit
everything will work better, but it is ridiculously expensive. Maybe it will get cheaper when it
isn't new, but I doubt it will get enough cheaper to make me happy (~price of DA 9sp).

What makes me even more upset though is that they stop making DA 9sp immediately (except for the
triple version, which they will stop making as soon as there is a 10sp triple version -- do you
really need 30 gear combinations?) Shimano is leaving everyone high and dry.

I guess I don't care that much, from what I read they make some good coversion cassettes that put
Campy 10sp on a Shimano spline. I'll just move to Campy as my silent protest against Shimano's
lack of innovation and inflated prices.

Functionally, 10spd DA's about as innovative as it should be. Electronics are certainly not
necessarily a good thing, and carbon isn't always better than aluminum. The cables are where Shimano
thinks they work best and ceramic bearings are a waste on bikes.

The thing we're really seeing here that's different is what Shimano's trying to accomplish with
their new limited-distribution model. Reduce supply(ers) while throwing in enough new gizmos to
produce a demand spike and what do you get? Higher margins, especially on aftermarket groups. It
also skews the upgrade/whole new bike decision in the direction of the latter, which benefits the
bike manufacturers and LBS. Campy's been making OEM inroads and this might just be Shimano's idea of
how to muscle them out. If they can sustain higher margins for the Mfgrs and LBS by going Shimano
rather than Campy, where do you think market share will go? It's up to the consumers (US) to
determine whether the strategy will work or not.

Nice stuff, for sure; I've had a chance to manhandle some locally. I'd prefer replaceable cartridge
bearings in the hubs, but heck; I'll even admit to liking the crank. But then as a former AX group
owner, that figures... ;-) It IS amazingly expensive, however. Levers that have more plastic than
before and cost $150 more than...Record? Think I'll wait and see, thanks.

SB

<original>
But none of that stuff: ceramic bearings, carbon/titanium parts, electronic shifting will make you
go significantly faster. Will it help you enjoy riding your bike more? That depends on the rider. It
wouldn't for me. Stock Shimano shifts quite well so I don't see much to be gained from electronic
shifting. If one likes having the newest gadgets it's important. People for whom having the newest
gadgets is really important will pay for it, and that was my original point.

<my reply>
I want some reliable information on how miniscule friction from bearings in bicycles is compared to other forces. Anyone? Please don't respond if you are the same people who say adding 5 pounds to your bike will not slow you down or having aero wheels will not make you go faster.

Stock Shimano does shift well, but electronic shifting has more potential for shifting well over time if it is implemented well.

And I would like to see the damn shift cables routed under the handlebar tape. More aero.

<original>
I don't think Shimano is using prototyping costs as an excuse - they're simply charging for the
privilege of early adoption. IMO, much of the CF/Ti that replaces "cheap aluminum" is jewelry. Not
that there's anything wrong with jewelry. [/B][/QUOTE]

<my reply>
I think the poster who pointed out that Shimano was charging what the market will allow is probably correct.

Quoted message said:

Shimano's trying to accomplish with their new limited-
distribution model.

This seems good for LBS and bicycle manufacturers. It seems bad for consumers and online bike shops. As a consumer, I don't think I like it.

Quoted message said:

Levers that have more plastic than before and cost $150

Ahh . . . you bring up a very important point that I forgot about. Why did they make the STI levers *UGLIER* than DA 9sp? I suppose that is a personal preference thing, but I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

<< Why did they make the STI levers *UGLIER* than DA 9sp? I suppose that is a personal preference
thing, but I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. >>

Form follows function-they supposedly made the levers more ergonomic. But what's their excuse for
that mongoloid crankset, the ugliest design ever, by far?

Mike Krueger said:

what's their excuse for that mongoloid crankset, the ugliest design ever, by far?

I totally agree with you. It really looks horrible!

Greets, Derk