the floyd affair & occam's razor

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

either: there's some conspiracy which pits the TdF, L' Equipe, and all
of France against Floyd, Phonak, and all Americans involving the
manipulation of his dope testing.

or: floyd has been consistently doping w/ testosterone (and masking w/
epi-testosterone to maintain the correct T:E ratio) and for whatever
reason he screwed up his ratios of dope and got caught.

Logical fallacy. False dilemma.

--
Michael Press

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

either: there's some conspiracy which pits the TdF, L' Equipe, and all
of France against Floyd, Phonak, and all Americans involving the
manipulation of his dope testing.

or: floyd has been consistently doping w/ testosterone (and masking w/
epi-testosterone to maintain the correct T:E ratio) and for whatever
reason he screwed up his ratios of dope and got caught.

Logical fallacy. False dilemma.

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

either: there's some conspiracy which pits the TdF, L' Equipe, and all
of France against Floyd, Phonak, and all Americans involving the
manipulation of his dope testing.

or: floyd has been consistently doping w/ testosterone (and masking w/
epi-testosterone to maintain the correct T:E ratio) and for whatever
reason he screwed up his ratios of dope and got caught.

Logical fallacy. False dilemma.

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Are you sure it is me to whom you mean to address this
question? I have not thought about it, but I will draw
thinly founded inferences from messages in rbr.

Some folks have taken testosterone and reported that they
became more aggressive. Aggression is good when aiming to
win a competition. Therefore take testosterone to win
races.

A laboratory reports that Landis had exogenous
testosterone in his system on the day he won an endurance
race. Therefore testosterone helps endurance atheletes.

Endurance race rules forbid the athlete from putting
exogenous testosterone into his system, therefore
testosterone helps endurance athletes.

--
Michael Press

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

either: there's some conspiracy which pits the TdF, L' Equipe, and all
of France against Floyd, Phonak, and all Americans involving the
manipulation of his dope testing.

or: floyd has been consistently doping w/ testosterone (and masking w/
epi-testosterone to maintain the correct T:E ratio) and for whatever
reason he screwed up his ratios of dope and got caught.

Logical fallacy. False dilemma.

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Because it helps with recovery? www.AntiAgingGroup.com
But then again, maybe you don't think it's necessary for cyclists to have
strength.

Tom Kunich said:

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Dumbass -

As always, you are correct. They might as well take it and all other
anabolics off the banned list. All those substances are completely
useless for recovery.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Some folks have taken testosterone and reported that they
became more aggressive. Aggression is good when aiming to
win a competition. Therefore take testosterone to win
races.

Agression doesn't mean jack [censored] in an endurance event. Either you've the
strength and endurance or you don't. Does testosterone increase one's
metabolic rate? No. Does it increase the loading of cell glycogen? No.

Agression without strength and endurance only wears you out early.

Quoted message said:

A laboratory reports that Landis had exogenous
testosterone in his system on the day he won an endurance
race. Therefore testosterone helps endurance atheletes.

Again let me explain this - there are many reasons that one could envision
leading to a lower C13 count than normal and at the top of the list is a
laboratory that you cannot trust. Since you cannot trust them you cannot
believe that they followed the procedures correctly. You cannot believe that
they are using proper equipment in the proper manner.

Quoted message said:

Endurance race rules forbid the athlete from putting
exogenous testosterone into his system, therefore
testosterone helps endurance athletes.

That's so stupid it doesn't elicit a response.

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Because it helps with recovery? www.AntiAgingGroup.com
But then again, maybe you don't think it's necessary for cyclists to have
strength.

Here's a way you can cure cancer: http://www.abchomeopathy.com/

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Some folks have taken testosterone and reported that they
became more aggressive. Aggression is good when aiming to
win a competition. Therefore take testosterone to win
races.

Agression doesn't mean jack [censored] in an endurance event. Either you've the
strength and endurance or you don't. Does testosterone increase one's
metabolic rate? No. Does it increase the loading of cell glycogen? No.

Agression without strength and endurance only wears you out early.

Quoted message said:

A laboratory reports that Landis had exogenous
testosterone in his system on the day he won an endurance
race. Therefore testosterone helps endurance atheletes.

Again let me explain this - there are many reasons that one could envision
leading to a lower C13 count than normal and at the top of the list is a
laboratory that you cannot trust. Since you cannot trust them you cannot
believe that they followed the procedures correctly. You cannot believe that
they are using proper equipment in the proper manner.

Quoted message said:

Endurance race rules forbid the athlete from putting
exogenous testosterone into his system, therefore
testosterone helps endurance athletes.

That's so stupid it doesn't elicit a response.

Tom, you ignorant jerk. The `logical' arguments from the
message I wrote that you quote and then so brilliantly
demolish were prefaced with the following text that you do
not quote.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure it is me to whom you mean to address this
question? I have not thought about it, but I will draw
thinly founded inferences from messages in rbr.

These arguments are précis of arguments that have been
presented here by others. You did ask me why I suppose
_others_ think T. is a drug an endurance athlete would
take. You steep in a miasma of your own making unable or
unwilling to accurately construe the writings of others,
and readily assign to others any beliefs that are
convenient for you.

But thanks for saying argument number three is so stupid
it does not require a response, since that was my goal,
you pinhead.

--
Michael Press

in message <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') said:

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

either: there's some conspiracy which pits the TdF, L' Equipe, and
all of France against Floyd, Phonak, and all Americans involving the
manipulation of his dope testing.

or: floyd has been consistently doping w/ testosterone (and masking
w/ epi-testosterone to maintain the correct T:E ratio) and for
whatever reason he screwed up his ratios of dope and got caught.

Logical fallacy. False dilemma.

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug
that endurance athletes would use?

Because they do use it and historically have used it?

It's like cycling helmets, isn't it? The research on them is at best
partial and ambiguous; at a population level there is absolutely no
evidence that they do any good. But people wear them. Similarly, just
because the science says that a particular drug doesn't aid performance
doesn't mean that athletes won't take it in the belief that the science
is wrong.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
;; knowledge increaseth sorrow.." - Ecclesiastes 1:18

Quoted message said:

Agression without strength and endurance only wears you out early.

You ever get mad during a race? The difference is sometimes startling.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') said:

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug
that endurance athletes would use?

Because they do use it and historically have used it?

It's like cycling helmets, isn't it? The research on them is at best
partial and ambiguous; at a population level there is absolutely no
evidence that they do any good. But people wear them. Similarly, just
because the science says that a particular drug doesn't aid performance
doesn't mean that athletes won't take it in the belief that the science
is wrong.

Simon, since you obviously have a pretty good grasp of the situation why are
you constantly taking the side of the devils advocate?

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Because it helps with recovery? www.AntiAgingGroup.com
But then again, maybe you don't think it's necessary for cyclists to have
strength.

Here's a way you can cure cancer: http://www.abchomeopathy.com/

Other doctors (such as Moosburger) have confirmed that Testosterone helps
with the recovery process. You know Boris Becker once said that doping
doesn't help in tennis because too many different abilities are involved,
yet overe the years they have found tennis players using performance
enhancing drugs. But I guess ign orance is bliss.

Quoted message said:

Don't ask us. Ask all the athletes that get busted for possession of
testosterone. It seems that every arrest of a doping cyclists yields
testosterone, anabolics, cortisone, EPO, and these days, blood.

Who cares if it makes sense to some doctor or not? It is well known
that cyclists take testosterone to dope based on investigations,
searches, arrests, ...

Tom Kunich said:

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

either: there's some conspiracy which pits the TdF, L' Equipe, and all
of France against Floyd, Phonak, and all Americans involving the
manipulation of his dope testing.

or: floyd has been consistently doping w/ testosterone (and masking w/
epi-testosterone to maintain the correct T:E ratio) and for whatever
reason he screwed up his ratios of dope and got caught.

Logical fallacy. False dilemma.

Why do you suppose people have the idea that testosterone is a drug that
endurance athletes would use?

Philo said:

Don't ask us. Ask all the athletes that get busted for possession of
testosterone. It seems that every arrest of a doping cyclists yields
testosterone, anabolics, cortisone, EPO, and these days, blood.

Who cares if it makes sense to some doctor or not? It is well known
that cyclists take testosterone to dope based on investigations,
searches, arrests, ...

Like who? Could you give some evidence that cyclists are getting arrested
with testosterone?

--
Bob in CT

Come on. Pretty much anyone who has been busted by the authorities
(not from testing) has had testosterone.

Look at Ullrich's doping plan for 2005.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul14news3

Ullrich's alleged doping plan

The Suddeutsche Zeitung has published what it claims was Jan Ullrich's
doping plan for the first week of the Tour de France 2005, based on
information from Operacion Puerto. For the first seven days of the
Tour, Dr. Fuentes prepared him a series of hormones, insulin,
cortisone, testosterone and blood transfusions, the newspaper alleged.
It claimed that there was a "Roadbook" for the Tour 2005, which
investigators link to Ullrich.

On the first day, according to the SZ, the hormone HZ was listed, the
second day insulin I-3, the hormone TGN and cortisone, the third day
TGN and PCH (a testosterone shot), on the fourth day HMG, a hormone
mixture, a "rest day" on the fifth day, the sixth day insulin I-3, and
on the last day, the re-infusion of his own blood, as well as insulin
I-3 and vitamin E.

The newspaper also notes that it is not clear who might have helped
Ullrich with possible transfusions, and notes that experts say that
Pevenage or Ullrich himself might have managed it. There is no
indication that the medical or support personnel of the team were
involved, according to the SZ.

Bob in CT said:

Philo said:

Don't ask us. Ask all the athletes that get busted for possession of
testosterone. It seems that every arrest of a doping cyclists yields
testosterone, anabolics, cortisone, EPO, and these days, blood.

Who cares if it makes sense to some doctor or not? It is well known
that cyclists take testosterone to dope based on investigations,
searches, arrests, ...

Like who? Could you give some evidence that cyclists are getting arrested
with testosterone?

--
Bob in CT

"Philo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Come on. Pretty much anyone who has been busted by the authorities
(not from testing) has had testosterone.

Look at Ullrich's doping plan for 2005.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul14news3

Let me reiterate. The scientific literature doesn't demonstrate testosterone
as being of any use in short term use or for "recovery". It appears to be
good at converting body fat into lean muscle mass OVER TIME.

It doesn't matter WHAT doctors believe. I probably shouldn't say anything
about this but we had a nurse that had to push a doctor out of the way and
finish the operation installing a heart valve because the ass hadn't even
read the papers on how to install the thing.

Doctors are NOT people with impecable knowledge. If you have a problem that
a doctor can't solve you don't wait around for him to work his way up to it.
You go to another doctor and another and then another until you find one who
actually knows something about it.

I have a Shotsky Ring at the entrance to my stomach. I complained to 10
different doctors that food was sticking and I was chocking. ALL 10 of these
doctors told me that it was IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen.

Finally I went to another doctor who knew what I was talking about after
half a sentence. He put me in the hospital the next morning and fixed it in
an hour and I walked out and went to work. It had taken me three years to go
to those 10 doctors who were convinced that my problem wasn't even possible.
And guess what - about 20% of the population have some occurence of it.

Quoted message said:

Let me reiterate. The scientific literature doesn't demonstrate testosterone
as being of any use in short term use or for "recovery". It appears to be
good at converting body fat into lean muscle mass OVER TIME.

It doesn't matter WHAT doctors believe.

*ROLLS EYES*

So though Doctors don't know what they are talking about (could be
true🙂, Pro-yclists know EXACTLY what drug not to take. They know that
testosterone doesn't work? Any Pro-Cyclist has a better grasp on Dope
than a doctor? Tom, you are contradicting yourself quite severely here.

If someone says strychine makes you cycle faster people will ingest it.
And yes, among those will be the stars of the generation^^

Testosterone might or might not help (although your knowledge is big,
there are most definitely reports that it does help...) but whatever
the truth of that, we know cylists take it.

And honestly.. I said before the TdF exactly this would happen. PHONAK
is rotten to the core. Landis might be innocent in a sense that he is a
victim of the team... but the chances of Landis NOT being "prepared"by
his team are slim... he would be the very first. All that so rightuous
anger against the Uci should be directed against a system that allows
teams like that exist.

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in news:on6rq3-mv8.ln1
@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk:

Quoted message said:

Because they do use it and historically have used it?

It's like cycling helmets, isn't it? The research on them is at best
partial and ambiguous; at a population level there is absolutely no
evidence that they do any good. But people wear them. Similarly, just
because the science says that a particular drug doesn't aid performance
doesn't mean that athletes won't take it in the belief that the science
is wrong.

POTM.

"Tuschinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let me reiterate. The scientific literature doesn't demonstrate
testosterone
as being of any use in short term use or for "recovery". It appears to be
good at converting body fat into lean muscle mass OVER TIME.

It doesn't matter WHAT doctors believe.

*ROLLS EYES*

So though Doctors don't know what they are talking about (could be
true🙂, Pro-yclists know EXACTLY what drug not to take. They know that
testosterone doesn't work? Any Pro-Cyclist has a better grasp on Dope
than a doctor? Tom, you are contradicting yourself quite severely here.

I suggest you learn how to read English if you're going to comment. It
doesn't matter if a doctor or a cyclist believes a drug to be performance
enhancing IF IT ISN'T. Testosterone does have a psychological boost so some
interpret that to be a physiological boost as well. It isn't the same thing
and shouldn't be interpretted as such.

Quoted message said:

If someone says strychine makes you cycle faster people will ingest it.
And yes, among those will be the stars of the generation^^

Precisely - so does that mean that strychnine enhances performance?

Quoted message said:

Testosterone might or might not help (although your knowledge is big,
there are most definitely reports that it does help...) but whatever
the truth of that, we know cylists take it.

They also take Vitamin D. Should we outlaw Vitamin D because THEY believe
that it enhances performance? BTW it does.

Quoted message said:

And honestly.. I said before the TdF exactly this would happen. PHONAK
is rotten to the core.

And of course Astana is completely pure as the driven snow.