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The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle

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Mountain Bikes
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27 August 2006
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Mike Vandeman
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  1. The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001

    "Documenting human impacts on genetic diversity in forest trees and
    other wildland plants is a difficult matter; little quantitative data
    exist. Most evidence is anecdotal, and only in the extreme case of
    extinction can we unequivocally demonstrate a reduction in diversity.
    … Research is particularly needed to document changes in allele
    frequency under various types of forest management; very few studies
    exist on the impact of harvest methods on genetic diversity." (Ledig,
    pp.87-8)

    "Comparison of pre- and post-harvest gene pools indicated a
    substantial loss of genetic diversity as a result of harvesting. … In
    postharvest stand A about one-half of the 30 lost alleles were rare …
    and one-half were low frequency alleles. … Eighty percent of all rare
    alleles were lost from the two gene pools, whereas about 40% of all
    low frequency alleles were lost. … 'Private' alleles, or those unique
    to either stand A or stand B, were especially vulnerable to
    harvest-induced elimination from the gene pools. … This suggests
    genetic diversity losses of 25% or more may be common when forests of
    this type are harvested at these intensities. … The loss of private
    alleles from both stands gives concern for the integrity of
    locally-adapted gene pools after harvesting." (Buchert et al,
    pp.751-4)

    "Sustainability" is the Holy Grail of the twenty-first
    century. Everyone and his brother claim to have found it, or at least
    to be able to describe what it would look like. We are told that
    sustainable recreation, agriculture, fishing, hunting, and even
    logging are within reach. But, like all such "campaign promises", they
    aren't fulfilled, and, in fact, cannot be fulfilled!

    In order to understand this, we first have to put the subject
    on a solid foundation. "Sustainable" means "indefinitely repeatable,
    without harm". Take "sustainable logging", for example. The
    implication is that a proper method and rate of logging can be
    continued forever, without diminishing the forest's resources -- in
    other words, without harming it. It is implied (and usually not
    explicitly stated) that the quantity of trees would be the same, with
    or without logging. But if the logged species of tree would, absent
    logging, naturally increase its population, holding it at a fixed
    population would constitute a "harm" (at least from the point of view
    of that species).

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient. So let's
    take a more concrete value: biodiversity, as exemplified by genetic
    diversity. I think that biodiversity is a generally accepted value,
    maybe even our highest value. Biodiversity supplies almost everything
    that we like: satisfying, attractive foods, clean air, clean water,
    effective medicines, beautiful places to live and recreate, etc.

    Biodiversity is also finite. Although new (unique) genes are
    continually being created, the rate of creation of new genes (that
    survive) is far lower than the rate at which we are able to destroy
    them. Thus, the number of different genes (or alleles) on the Earth is
    a large, but finite, number. (By the way, the creation of new genes
    does not "compensate" for the loss of other genes, except in a simple
    mathematical sense; this is like comparing apples and oranges. The
    creation of a new variety of apple doesn't "compensate" for the loss
    of a variety of orange. We like the species that we have, and are not
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    How does biodiversity get created? By mutation. Where does it
    get created? In individuals. The very first time that a new gene (or
    allele) is created, it most likely exists in a single individual. The
    probability that the same genetic "accident" would happen
    simultaneously in more than one individual is even lower than the
    already low probability of its occurrence in the first individual.
    Suppose, for example, that one of our to-be-logged trees contains a
    mutation that would allow the species to survive global warming. Then
    by killing even one tree, we could destroy biodiversity (a gene or
    allele that exists nowhere else in the world), and have a significant
    negative effect on the species!

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    To bring this closer to home, look at the set of all humans,
    alive or dead. (Assume that we have a concrete way of determining,
    e.g. genetically, whether a given organism is a human being -- call it
    gene H. Personally, I think that this distinguishing factor probably
    involves a leap in memory capacity.) This is a finite set. Therefore,
    it has a first member. There was a first organism having the H gene.
    What if that first human were killed? Then it would be extremely
    unlikely that humans would have evolved, at least in the relatively
    short 6 (?) million years that we have been here.

    Every biology textbook identifies "overharvesting" as one of
    the major causes of the loss of biodiversity. However, as far as I
    know, none of them define "over", and none of them discuss the loss of
    biodiversity caused by harvesting that is not "overharvesting". If
    they did, they would have to include the practice of "collecting"
    (killing) organisms for scientific study. To the contrary, as recently
    as 1979 (Wilkins and Peterson, p. 178), we find statements like
    "Populations of wild animals can have the annual surplus cropped
    without harm". Insect field guides, e.g. Powell and Hogue (1979),
    recommend collecting insects as "an exciting and satisfying hobby for
    anyone" (p. 359). An entomologist at the University of Phoenix told me
    that collecting insects causes students to become excited about
    studying biology. Okay, but I wonder how many of them end up
    benefiting the species that they killed, and how many of them, on the
    contrary, end up supporting practices (e.g. pest control) that harm
    it? Is there really a net benefit to the organisms whose lives are
    sacrificed to research? I doubt it.

    Promoting the collecting of living organisms, besides teaching
    biology, also teaches people (nonverbally -- the most powerful way of
    teaching) that the killing of other species is to be taken lightly,
    and that human concerns take precedence over the lives and wishes of
    those species. That learning goes on even if the teacher verbally
    expresses regret over the need to kill. (If a smoking parent tells his
    children not to use drugs, what do the children actually learn?) Who
    knows what other consequences it may have?

    My intention, however, is not to single out any one form of
    killing, but to explain why there can be no such thing as a
    sustainable lifestyle: we all kill to eat, and therefore we risk doing
    significant harm. At a minimum, the killing of living organisms,
    especially reproducing organisms, should never be taken lightly.
    Furthermore, the notion of a "sustainable yield" is a myth. It assumes
    that the preservation of species is all that is important, and ignores
    loss of diversity below the species level.

    And there are other reasons why sustainability is
    unattainable: for example, all organisms produce wastes that are
    incompatible with their own existence. Trees produce oxygen. That
    seems like a good thing, but oxygen is poisonous to many organisms.
    And if there weren't mechanisms to remove excess oxygen from the
    atmosphere, all of our forests would spontaneously combust ("An
    increase in oxygen of only 4 percent could ignite the entire
    atmosphere", James Lovelock in Newbold, p.9). I also wonder what would
    happen to species of trees whose fallen leaves (and dead ancestors)
    were not broken down by animals and fungi. So even a tree can't
    sustain itself without the help of other organisms.

    I think that the best we can say about sustainability is that
    it is a worthy goal, approachable, but not actually attainable.

    References:

    Aczel, Amir D., The Mystery of the Aleph -- Mathematics, the Kabbalah,
    and the Search for Infinity. New York: Four Walls Eight Windows, 2000.

    Buchert, George P., Om P. Rajora, James V. Hood, and Bruce P. Dancik,
    "Effects of Harvesting on Genetic Diversity in Old-Growth Eastern
    White Pine in Ontario, Canada". Conservation Biology, Vol. 11, No. 3,
    June 1997, pp.747-758.

    Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
    Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House,
    1981.

    Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
    Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.

    Ledig, F. Thomas, "Human Impacts on Genetic Diversity in Forest
    Ecosystems". Oikos, Vol. 63, 1992, pp.87-108.

    Liddle, Michael, Recreation Ecology. Chapman & Hall: London, c.1997.

    Myers, Norman, ed., Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management, Garden City,
    NY: Anchor Books, 1984.

    Newbold, Heather, ed., Life Stories: World-Renowned Scientists Reflect
    on their Lives and the Future of Life on Earth. Berkeley: University
    of California Press, 2000.

    Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
    Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
    California, 1994.

    Powell, Jerry A. and Charles L. Hogue, California Insects. Berkeley:
    University of California Press, c. 1979.

    Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights
    for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc.,
    1973.

    Vandeman, Michael J., http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially
    "Wildlife and the Ecocity", "Rethinking the Impacts of Recreation",
    and "Wildlife Need Habitat Off-Limits to Humans".

    Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the
    Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.

    Wilkins, Bruce J. and Steven R. Peterson, "Nongame Wildlife", in
    Wildlife Conservation: Principles and Practices, Richard D. Teague and
    Eugene Decker, eds. Washington, D. C.: The Wildlife Society, c. 1979.

    Wilson, Edward O., The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Massachusetts:
    Harvard University Press, 1992.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Mike Vandeman said:

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.

    Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    because the Earth is a big place.

    I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.

    R. Lander

  3. R. Lander said:

    Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us ... yet so easily denied
    because the Earth [SEEMS] a big place.

    Pete H

  4. On 28 Aug 2006 20:14:01 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.

    Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    because the Earth is a big place.

    I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.

    AMEN! Also, all developers should be required to LIVE next to
    (down-wind of) their creations. That would stop a lot of terrible
    projects. Including Disneyland.

    Quoted message said:

    R. Lander


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  5. R. Lander said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.

    Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    because the Earth is a big place.

    I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.

    R. Lander

    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

  6. RT said:


    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    Primarily because there are so many prying Parker type swho have been
    educated beyond their intelligence who have nothing better to do than
    run about categorizing and passing judgement on everyone else's lives.

    Pete H

  7. RT said:
    R. Lander said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.

    Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    because the Earth is a big place.

    I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.

    R. Lander

    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    It's elementary. "Natural" means "has been around a long time". Humans
    have been around such a short time, on an evolutionary scale, other
    species haven't had time to evolve adaptations to us. For example, a
    chain saw is unnatural in the woods because it is too new. After
    enough time, trees might have time to become self-spiking and thereby
    protect themselves from it.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  8. Mike Vandeman said:
    RT said:
    R. Lander said:

    Mike Vandeman wrote:

    > But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    > very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.

    Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    because the Earth is a big place.

    I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.

    R. Lander

    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    It's elementary. "Natural" means "has been around a long time". Humans
    have been around such a short time, on an evolutionary scale, other
    species haven't had time to evolve adaptations to us. For example, a
    chain saw is unnatural in the woods because it is too new. After
    enough time, trees might have time to become self-spiking and thereby
    protect themselves from it.

    Well then, that is precisely what is happening. Those parts of the environment
    that can successfully evolve and adapt to humans will survive.

    Quoted message said:

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  9. RT said:


    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    It isn't / shouldn't be.
    But just as when a wolf pack kills off all it's food supply and then
    dies off, we are heading toward just that same situation.
    However, unlike the wolves, we have the ability to recognize this and
    stop our own self destruction.

  10. Mike Vandeman said:
    RT said:


    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    It's elementary. "Natural" means "has been around a long time". Humans
    have been around such a short time, on an evolutionary scale, other
    species haven't had time to evolve adaptations to us. For example, a
    chain saw is unnatural in the woods because it is too new. After
    enough time, trees might have time to become self-spiking and thereby
    protect themselves from it.

    Wrong.
    We are just another animal.
    And therefore what we do is simply our nature, just as when a wolf pack
    kills off all its food supply and then dies off.

    Part of our nature is our ability to adapt.
    And we need to adapt to the situation instead of going the way of the
    wolves and killing ourselves off by killing off our food, water, and
    air supply.

  11. RT said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    RT said:

    On 28 Aug 2006 20:14:01 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >Mike Vandeman wrote:
    >
    >> But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    >> very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.
    >
    >Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    >corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    >invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    >near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    >until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    >because the Earth is a big place.
    >
    >I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    >Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    >see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    >Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    >No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.
    >
    >R. Lander

    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    It's elementary. "Natural" means "has been around a long time". Humans
    have been around such a short time, on an evolutionary scale, other
    species haven't had time to evolve adaptations to us. For example, a
    chain saw is unnatural in the woods because it is too new. After
    enough time, trees might have time to become self-spiking and thereby
    protect themselves from it.

    Well then, that is precisely what is happening. Those parts of the environment
    that can successfully evolve and adapt to humans will survive.

    True, however I like the earth the way it is / was.
    I don't think I will like it when the earth evolves to the point that
    we are not the dominate species and are getting killed off by nature by
    the dozens.
    I like being the top of the food chain.
    Therefore, it would benefit us to not press nature to the point that it
    does evolve to that point.

  12. RT said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    RT said:

    On 28 Aug 2006 20:14:01 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >Mike Vandeman wrote:
    >
    >> But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    >> very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.
    >
    >Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    >corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    >invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    >near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    >until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    >because the Earth is a big place.
    >
    >I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    >Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    >see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    >Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    >No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.
    >
    >R. Lander

    Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    It's elementary. "Natural" means "has been around a long time". Humans
    have been around such a short time, on an evolutionary scale, other
    species haven't had time to evolve adaptations to us. For example, a
    chain saw is unnatural in the woods because it is too new. After
    enough time, trees might have time to become self-spiking and thereby
    protect themselves from it.

    Well then, that is precisely what is happening. Those parts of the environment
    that can successfully evolve and adapt to humans will survive.

    You forget that we are 100% dependent on other species, which provide
    numerous services that we can't possibly duplicate.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  13. CanopyCo wrote:
    we have the ability to recognize this and

    Quoted message said:

    stop our own self destruction.

    Extinction is a perfectly natural attribute of the natural world.

    PH

  14. Mike Vandeman said:
    RT said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:12:10 GMT, RT <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >On 28 Aug 2006 20:14:01 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Mike Vandeman wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    >>>very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.
    >>
    >>Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    >>corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    >>invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    >>near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    >>until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    >>because the Earth is a big place.
    >>
    >>I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    >>Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    >>see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    >>Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    >>No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.
    >>
    >>R. Lander
    >
    >Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    >natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?

    It's elementary. "Natural" means "has been around a long time". Humans
    have been around such a short time, on an evolutionary scale, other
    species haven't had time to evolve adaptations to us. For example, a
    chain saw is unnatural in the woods because it is too new. After
    enough time, trees might have time to become self-spiking and thereby
    protect themselves from it.

    Well then, that is precisely what is happening. Those parts of the environment
    that can successfully evolve and adapt to humans will survive.

    You forget that we are 100% dependent on other species, which provide
    numerous services that we can't possibly duplicate.

    So IOW your desire to preserve
    nature is completely motivated
    by your own self-preservation.

  15. pmhilton said:

    CanopyCo wrote:
    we have the ability to recognize this and

    Quoted message said:

    stop our own self destruction.

    Extinction is a perfectly natural attribute of the natural world.

    Not when it's caused by humans.

    Quoted message said:

    PH


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  16. cc said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    RT said:

    On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:21:42 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:12:10 GMT, RT <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On 28 Aug 2006 20:14:01 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Mike Vandeman wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are
    >>>>very good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient.
    >>>
    >>>Yes, "sustainable growth" is the biggest lie ever foisted upon us by
    >>>corporations and governments. It's a creation of the same types who
    >>>invented Manifest Destiny when they were sniping buffalo and indians to
    >>>near extinction. There's only so much stuff we can take from the land
    >>>until it takes us down with it. It's so obvious, yet so easily denied
    >>>because the Earth is a big place.
    >>>
    >>>I recommend that all growthmaniacs study the world from the air using
    >>>Internet mapping technology, GIS and aerial photos. It's very easy to
    >>>see how much space is being filled up and what the land is used for.
    >>>Disney's 1966 "Small World" exhibit has nothing on today's technology.
    >>>No more ignorance about that development over the next hill.
    >>>
    >>>R. Lander
    >>
    >>Philosophically speaking, why would anything a human does be considered less
    >>natural than what any other plant/animal/microbe does?
    >
    >It's elementary. "Natural" means "has been around a long time". Humans
    >have been around such a short time, on an evolutionary scale, other
    >species haven't had time to evolve adaptations to us. For example, a
    >chain saw is unnatural in the woods because it is too new. After
    >enough time, trees might have time to become self-spiking and thereby
    >protect themselves from it.

    Well then, that is precisely what is happening. Those parts of the environment
    that can successfully evolve and adapt to humans will survive.

    You forget that we are 100% dependent on other species, which provide
    numerous services that we can't possibly duplicate.

    So IOW your desire to preserve
    nature is completely motivated
    by your own self-preservation.

    No, but that's certainly part of it. MOST people are interested in
    self-preservation. Aren't YOU?
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  17. pmhilton said:

    CanopyCo wrote:
    we have the ability to recognize this and

    Quoted message said:

    stop our own self destruction.

    Extinction is a perfectly natural attribute of the natural world.

    Personally, I do not want to become extinct.
    If you do, it is easy enough for you to accomplish ;-)

    We are destroying our world, and it will eventually result in our own
    destruction.

  18. CanopyCo said:
    pmhilton said:


    Extinction is a perfectly natural attribute of the natural world.

    Personally, I do not want to become extinct.
    If you do, it is easy enough for you to accomplish ;-)

    We are destroying our world,

    No, we are not. We may well be destroying the attributes and resources
    that enable us to live here, but we are assuredly not "destroying the
    world." Mother Earth will be here several billion years after we've
    shuffled off into the dust.

    Extinction is for species, not individuals. Death is an absolute
    certainty for every organism. Extinction seems likewise inescapable.

    PH

  19. pmhilton said:
    CanopyCo said:
    pmhilton said:


    Extinction is a perfectly natural attribute of the natural world.

    Personally, I do not want to become extinct.
    If you do, it is easy enough for you to accomplish ;-)

    We are destroying our world,

    No, we are not. We may well be destroying the attributes and resources
    that enable us to live here, but we are assuredly not "destroying the
    world." Mother Earth will be here several billion years after we've
    shuffled off into the dust.

    Extinction is for species, not individuals. Death is an absolute
    certainty for every organism. Extinction seems likewise inescapable.

    I hate to break it to you, but living things are part of the world. It
    isn't composed of minerals only. DUH!

    Quoted message said:

    PH


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  20. Mike Vandeman wrote:
    living things are part of the world.

    That's the first intelligent thing you've said in years!

    Then you ignore or blithely sidestep the next, inevitable stage.

    All living things die.

    PH

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