Disk road/cross bike for winter training

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about a disk brake cross bike......

No hands on experience with disk brakes but you should check out www.vanillabicycles.com They are
near you in Portland and do quite a bit with disks brakes on road bikes.

Bob

fRE/

Quoted message said:

however, my first venture into disks was with avid disk brakes. hated them. very poor modulation.
this makes for gray hair on sketchy terrain because you may need instant or fine control to prevent
lock-ups and skidding. switched to hydraulics and love them.

In support of your observations:
- My Hope C2's modulate really well.

- My Avid mechs are notidibly "grabby" sometimes

But I always figured it was the pads. The Avids come with sintered (whatever that means) metallic
pads and I use an aftermarket "green" pad in the Hopes - which seems virtualy non-metallic.
--
PeteCresswell

Quoted message said:

But I always figured it was the pads.

i tried different pads. didn't make a lot of difference to the braking action that i could observe.

Quoted message said:

The Avids come with sintered (whatever that means)

sintered is just solid particles pressed tightly together and heated until the particles actually
stick to each other where they touch. it's a good way of forming a component to relatively close
tolerance fairly cheap and is particularly good for dissimilar materials such as brake pads where
you may have metallic, semi-metallic &/or non-metallic constituents.

jb

[B]> But I always figured it was the pads.

I had a set of the MTB Avids with their TI levers. They very, very easy to set up but, they stopping power sucked. They didn't come close to my 3 year old Magura Julies and nowhere near my former Hope M4s. I know that these are both hydralic and the Avids are not. But rims brakes have provided me with more consistant and powerful braking, even in the wet and mud. I actually felt the weak Avid were kind of scary to ride with. Maybe I had a lemon set but, I was glad to get rid of them and would NOT use them again.

Eric "The Avids nearly made him shat his trousers" St. Mary

(David Mackintosh) said:

I'm thinking about a disk brake cross bike for primarily winter road riding. I've read the
previous related threads.

I hope that incudes the threads about front wheel ejection. If you're having the bike built,
consider having the fork designed to put the caliper on the front side of the fork leg rather than
behind. You might need to use two rear brake calipers to make this work.

If you haven't read James Annan's Web site, you might wish to do so. While some people contest the
validity of his ideas and his data, others recognize that there is a serious problem with current
disk brake/fork designs.

RE/

Quoted message said:

I actually felt the weak Avid were kind of scary to ride with. Maybe I had a lemon set but, I was
glad to get rid of them and would NOT use them again.

Thats interesting because in the comparison between my FS with the C2's (SomeBrandOrOther's "Green"😉
and my hardtail with Avid stock pads the Avids have *much* more stopping power than the C2s. OTOH,
the Avids can be "grabby"...and the C2s still have plenty power for anything I'll ever attempt.
--
PeteCresswell

tim

always beware opinion or conjecture presented as fact. the theoretical possibility of disk brake
ejection is real, but in the absence accident statistics that show it to be a significant, or even
minor liklihood, it cannot be regarded as substantive risk. a few people's email's on a web site
[without dissent, naturally] hardly qualify as statistical evidence.

just like it's theoretically possible for accidents to occur if a brake pad holder is fitted the
wrong way round - the pad can slide out - it doesn't happen with any statistical significance, so
there's no reason to redesign all brake pad holders. i've been running disk brakes for nearly 2
years and i've never had a wheel loosen, let alone eject. why? because i make sure it's properly
fitted before each ride!

fear of flying is based on real concerns of what can happen in the event of a crash. statistical
evidence however shows those concerns to be misplaced compared to car driving or even cycling - two
acivities that are /not/ typically regarded as high risk. in the same statistical way, let's keep
some perspective on the risk of disk brake ejection - it's not a problem.

jb

jim beam said:

always beware opinion or conjecture presented as fact.

Thank you, Mom.

Quoted message said:

the theoretical possibility of disk brake ejection is real, but in the absence accident statistics
that show it to be a significant, or even minor liklihood, it cannot be regarded as substantive
risk. a few people's email's on a web site [without dissent, naturally] hardly qualify as
statistical evidence.

At this point, all that can be said is that the evidence isn't in one way or the other. That there
is a significant design flaw is not in dispute. That the results of the design flaw can be
catastrophic is also not in dispute. Both of these are well-demonstrated by the available evidence.
All that's missing is godd incidence data. BTW, have you seen the video of a disk brake front wheel
ejection? Very painful looking, and it's remarkable the force with which the wheel is ejected.

Quoted message said:

in the same statistical way, let's keep some perspective on the risk of disk brake ejection -
it's not a problem.

Always beware an opinion or conjecture presented as fact.

hello, check this out :sticha.chsticha.chOpen ↗ the product is called discjockey and these Hope discs
totally outperformed all the rim brakes in a german magazine ...enjoy

David Mackintosh a écrit:

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about a disk brake cross bike for primarily winter road riding. I've read the
previous related threads. My reason for wanting disks is that it rains fairly constantly here
(Hood River, OR) in the winter, and daily riding involves significant climbing and descending. The
roads are covered with cinders or sand in the winter, and rim brakes work poorly, eat through rims
and pads, and make a big mess. I weigh about 190 lbs. I would use Avid road mechanicals with STI
levers. Would use the bike with 25mm road tires and full fenders for wet-weather training and
commuting, no fenders and larger tires for limited trail and fire road riding. This is going to be
a custom steel frame (fit issues), so I can pretty much spec any setup I want. Might use a MTB
crank, haven't decided ("new" compact road double sounds good).

Are there any situations where the disk brake performance is worse than any type of rim brake
(that works with STI levers)?

Other than the expense of building new wheels which would not be interchangeable with my other
bikes, are there other disadvantages?

How much total additional weight is likely?

Any recommendations for reasonably priced, lightweight disk hubs? Will be using a rigid fork, so
don't need an oversized front axle. Should I use a 135mm rear axle?

Any fairly light 700c disk rigid forks available? Would prefer to not have canti bosses, but
should have a hole in the crown for fender mounting.

My Open Pros fill up with water on wet rides, any fixes? Any light/strong rim recommendations
(don't need to worry about braking surfaces)?

Any other recommendations for this type of setup? I need to keep the cost fairly reasonable.

-David

David Mackintosh wrote ...

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about a disk brake cross bike for primarily winter road riding. I've read the
previous related threads. My reason for wanting disks is that it rains fairly constantly here
(Hood River, OR) in the winter, and daily riding involves significant climbing and descending. The
roads are covered with cinders or sand in the winter, and rim brakes work poorly, eat through rims
and pads, and make a big mess. I weigh about 190 lbs. I would use Avid road mechanicals with STI
levers. Would use the bike with 25mm road tires and full fenders for wet-weather training and
commuting, no fenders and larger tires for limited trail and fire road riding. This is going to be
a custom steel frame (fit issues), so I can pretty much spec any setup I want. Might use a MTB
crank, haven't decided ("new" compact road double sounds good).

I recently had a similar bike made for winter and wet weather commuting - custom-fitted Lightspeed
Tuscany (i.e. standard road geometry) with Avid mechanical discs, Dura-Ace STI levers, 105 triple
drivetrain, Hope XC disc hubs, 23mm tires and road fenders. I chose a road racing geometry over a
cyclocross because 1) I won't be riding off-road at all, and 2) I prefer that geometry, especially
when the weather turns out to be nice and I can ride fast.

Pros - no braking degredation in the wet, lower gearing for winter and bad weather, low-maintenance
components. Rain is not an issue now.

Cons - I find the disc brakes much more finicky than calipers. The bike has a heavier feel than if
it had calipers.

Other posters have mentioned modulation problems. This may be an issue off-road, but I love the feel
of the Avids on the road. They're perfect for my application - safety in traffic on wet
urban/suburban roads.

Quoted message said:

Are there any situations where the disk brake performance is worse than any type of rim brake
(that works with STI levers)?

Not in my experience. The discs are slightly better than calipers in dry weather, and substantially
better in wet. None of that awful gritty grinding, and no need to pre-apply the brakes to dry off
the water.

Quoted message said:

Any recommendations for reasonably priced, lightweight disk hubs? Will be using a rigid fork, so
don't need an oversized front axle. Should I use a 135mm rear axle?

You can get Shimano XT disc hubs for about $100 a pair, but I wanted cartridge bearing hubs to
eliminate maintenance (I've had to repack Ultegra hubs too many times after heavy rain), so I got
Hope XC Disc hubs at Jenson USA for $240 for the pair.

You will need 135mm rear spacing, because there are no 130mm disc hubs available.

I had a regular caliper brake bridge put on the bike, in case I ever wanted to run calipers instead
(or in a fit of Sheldonitis, perhaps in addition ;-). In hidsight it should have been fitted to take
long-reach calipers, because the rear fender doesn't fit under it without modification.

Quoted message said:

Any fairly light 700c disk rigid forks available? Would prefer to not have canti bosses, but
should have a hole in the crown for fender mounting.

Lightspeed had a carbon disc fork on hand, so I didn't need an aftermarket fork, but I'd previously
seen a Dimension steel disc fork for about $100 (webcyclery.com?). Don't recall if it had canti
bosses or fender mounts... Another option is a custom fork; Independant Fabrication has a good
reputation, though they lost my business when they first said they could make me a 700c disc fork,
then decided not to make it after it was ordered, but didn't actually tell anybody for a month...

Michael

Robert Schinner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

hello, check this out :sticha.chsticha.chOpen ↗ the product is called discjockey and these Hope discs
totally outperformed all the rim brakes in a german magazine ...enjoy

That does look interesting, although probably pricey, and complicated setup. I can't translate the
text, but it looks like stem-mounted cable-operated remote master cylinders to go between standard
road brake levers and hydraulic brake calipers. Any idea of the cost, or US source?

-David

Thanks for posting that link. I have never heard of this company, their work is beautiful.

"AGRIBOB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about a disk brake cross bike......

No hands on experience with disk brakes but you should check out www.vanillabicycles.com They are
near you in Portland and do quite a bit

with

Quoted message said:

disks brakes on road bikes.

Bob

Tim McNamara wrote ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about a disk brake cross bike for primarily winter road riding. I've read the
previous related threads.

I hope that incudes the threads about front wheel ejection. If you're having the bike built,
consider having the fork designed to put the caliper on the front side of the fork leg rather than
behind. You might need to use two rear brake calipers to make this work.

I recently had a disc-brake road bike built, as I described in more detail in another post in
this thread.

I considered having the the front caliper put on the front of the fork leg, but decided not to, and
I would highly recommend that the OP not do it either.

I decided not to because I don't want to risk a totally unproven design, based on the provocation of
a few people on the net, to avoid an alleged and rarely seen problem with the current design. Who
knows what problems might develop with this design change. At least the current design has undergone
zillions of miles of use with only a few possible problems.

I'm not looking to restart the wheel ejection flame wars, just to point out to the OP that he
probably shouldn't be the guinea pig for the conjecture of a few people on the net.

Michael