Opinions on the building the "ultimate" wheel

The Phil hubs are great, I've been riding them for over 8 years on my tourer now.

36m no question, I prefer straight gauge myself. Others prefer butted.

My tourer has 36, with Phil hub, Mavic DH rims with ceramic coating. First set lasted until the rims
failed around the eyelets, then I built the hubs into another set of the same wheels.

I only had to true them once in 6 years of loaded touring, I weigh in about 170, plus touring
weights of between 80-100.

You won't break these, and the ceramic prevents you from going through the sidewalls before
something else fails.

-pete

"bigfaceworm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All,

All,

I've broken 8 freehub bodies in the past 5 years (Shimano Deore, LX, XTR). I'm tired of that.

So, I've decided to build the ultimate rear wheel, and just wanted to get some feedback on
components.

I'm 6'4", 250#, and the wheel is for my mountain bike - I ride mostly single track trails and
small drops (2' max). Weight is not a concern. My current set up is:

RIM Mavic X223, 26" REAR HUB Shimano M-525 Disc, 32 hole SPOKES DT Swiss 1.8mm stainless,
alloy nipples

I've decided on a PhillWood rear hub because they're built strong and are guaranteed for life.
philwood.compage1.htmOpen ↗ The only question here is 32 or 36 holes?

Would standard DT spokes 1.8-1.6-1.8 be best? That seems to be the concensus (after reading all
the FAQ)

The big question: What rim would you recommend? All I know about rims is that I don't want
annodized or machined...

Thanks,

BFW

You also might consider chris king, it makes just as much noise as phil. As for rims, Velocity deep
V is bulletproof. Additional reliability can be gotten by using lighter gauge spokes on the left
rear as the tensions are lower tom

--
Bruni Bicycles "Where art meets science" brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420 bigfaceworm <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All,

All,

I've broken 8 freehub bodies in the past 5 years (Shimano Deore, LX, XTR). I'm tired of that.

So, I've decided to build the ultimate rear wheel, and just wanted to get some feedback on
components.

I'm 6'4", 250#, and the wheel is for my mountain bike - I ride mostly single track trails and
small drops (2' max). Weight is not a concern. My current set up is:

RIM Mavic X223, 26" REAR HUB Shimano M-525 Disc, 32 hole SPOKES DT Swiss 1.8mm stainless,
alloy nipples

I've decided on a PhillWood rear hub because they're built strong and are guaranteed for life.
philwood.compage1.htmOpen ↗ The only question here is 32 or 36 holes?

Would standard DT spokes 1.8-1.6-1.8 be best? That seems to be the concensus (after reading all
the FAQ)

The big question: What rim would you recommend? All I know about rims is that I don't want
annodized or machined...

Thanks,

BFW

(bigfaceworm) said:

All,

Quoted message said:

All,

Quoted message said:

I've broken 8 freehub bodies in the past 5 years (Shimano Deore, LX, XTR). I'm tired of that.

I think you might consider buying a suspension bike, or possibly changing your riding style.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

Quoted message said:

I've broken 8 freehub bodies in the past 5 years (Shimano Deore, LX, XTR). I'm tired of that.

how did they break? why is a phil hub going to be better? if it breaks, yes it'll be
repaired/replaced, but if you're mashing gigantic gears, there's only so much stress a freewheel
body can take regardless of manufacture - physical size determines the upper limit!

Quoted message said:

The only question here is 32 or 36 holes?

lots of people will tell you 36, but 32's plenty strong. i bashed a flat spot into my 36 hole rear
just as quickly as the previous 32 hole. makes no discernible difference if you have a quality rim.

Quoted message said:

Would standard DT spokes 1.8-1.6-1.8 be best?

not necessarily. consider 2.0/1.8/2.0. that offers a stiffer wheel for a clydesdale. and sapim make
great spokes.

Quoted message said:

All I know about rims is that I don't want annodized or machined...

why not? for mtb, you're going to have a tough job avoiding either unless you go disk, and even
then, you'll only avoid machining, not anodizing. past criticism of anodizing on the grounds that it
causes cracking is misguided and misinformed about relevant cracking mechanisms. just get something
with double walls, double eyelets [if possible] and stop worrying. i'm not a huge mavic fan per se,
but mavic X618's are strong, double eyelet and can take tremendous abuse for their weight.

jb

bigfaceworm said:

I'm 6'4", 250#, and the wheel is for my mountain bike - I ride mostly single track trails and
small drops (2' max). Weight is not a concern. My current set up is:

RIM Mavic X223, 26" REAR HUB Shimano M-525 Disc, 32 hole SPOKES DT Swiss 1.8mm stainless,
alloy nipples

I've decided on a PhillWood rear hub because they're built strong and are guaranteed for life.
philwood.compage1.htmOpen ↗ The only question here is 32 or 36 holes?

If weight is not a concern, why fuss about 4 spokes? Go for 36. If you are that hard on equipment
that you regularly break freehubs, you do not need to diddle around with low spoke counts.

Quoted message said:

Would standard DT spokes 1.8-1.6-1.8 be best? That seems to be the concensus (after reading all
the FAQ)

I know that is what Jobst recommends. I tend to use 2.0-1.8-2.0. There is not that much difference,
but I see no reason for you to go with the finger gauge. Butted spokes do build a more durable wheel
than straight-gauge.

Quoted message said:

The big question: What rim would you recommend? All I know about rims is that I don't want
annodized or machined...

Sun Rhyno Lite. Cheap. Big. Strong.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can _`\(,_ | only be cured by
something racy and Italian. Bianchis and (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis
and Ferraris. -- Glenn Davies

"Donald Gillies" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (bigfaceworm) writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've broken 8 freehub bodies in the past 5 years (Shimano Deore, LX, XTR). I'm tired of that.

Quoted message said:

I think you might consider buying a suspension bike, or possibly changing your riding style.

You might consider changing your maintenance style. I used to break freehub bodies too, until I
started flushing and relubing them. No problems since.

Matt O.

I have a BMX cruiser that I built up with 36h Sun BFR rims laced to Suzue hubs. I can attest that
rim is darn near bullet proof, not sure if they make it in a mountain bike size however. 🙂 I'm
210lbs and frequently have the bike 5+ feet in the air, with no suspension.

bigfaceworm said:

All,

All,

I've broken 8 freehub bodies in the past 5 years (Shimano Deore, LX, XTR). I'm tired of that.

So, I've decided to build the ultimate rear wheel, and just wanted to get some feedback on
components.

I'm 6'4", 250#, and the wheel is for my mountain bike - I ride mostly single track trails and
small drops (2' max). Weight is not a concern. My current set up is:

RIM Mavic X223, 26" REAR HUB Shimano M-525 Disc, 32 hole SPOKES DT Swiss 1.8mm stainless,
alloy nipples

I've decided on a PhillWood rear hub because they're built strong and are guaranteed for life.
philwood.compage1.htmOpen ↗ The only question here is 32 or 36 holes?

Would standard DT spokes 1.8-1.6-1.8 be best? That seems to be the concensus (after reading all
the FAQ)

The big question: What rim would you recommend? All I know about rims is that I don't want
annodized or machined...

Thanks,

BFW

--
Mark Wolfe wolfenet.orgwolfenet.orgOpen ↗ gpg fingerprint = 42B6 EFEB 5414 AA18 01B7 64AC EF46 F7E6 82F6
8C71 In a sense Christianity is like Jazz - if you need to ask the questions you won't understand
the answers.
- Bob Billing

[email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote

Quoted message said:

I think you might consider buying a suspension bike, or possibly changing your riding style.

I just got a Specialized Epic.

But that's not going to help - I break the pawls - which results from climbing steep hills on the
slick rock trail in Moab. Too much weight/strength and ultimate traction == broken freehub body.

My pedal stroke is pretty smooth, I'm sure it can be improved, but the Shimano hubs have
consistently failed me.

BFW

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

You might consider changing your maintenance style. I used to break freehub bodies too, until I
started flushing and relubing them. No problems since.

Yeah, but I've broken 3 different hubs - each with less than 30 miles on them. Twice (two different
occasions) the day *after* getting it replaced. So, I think I can rule out maintenance...

BFW

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

how did they break? why is a phil hub going to be better? if it breaks, yes it'll be
repaired/replaced, but if you're mashing gigantic gears, there's only so much stress a freewheel
body can take regardless of manufacture - physical size determines the upper limit!

I broke the pawls. I agree that they can only take so much, and that I put a lot of pressure on the
freehub. But until I lose some weight, I'm going to have to get some stronger equipment.

The Phil Wood has 4 sets of double pawls, as opposed to Shimano's 3 sets. The PW hub is guaranteed
for life, so if nothing else, it won't cost me to fix things (other than some labor)...

BFW

"bigfaceworm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

how did they break? why is a phil hub going to be better? if it breaks, yes it'll be
repaired/replaced, but if you're mashing gigantic gears, there's only so much stress a freewheel
body can take regardless of manufacture - physical size determines the upper limit!

I broke the pawls. I agree that they can only take so much, and that I put a lot of pressure on
the freehub. But until I lose some weight, I'm going to have to get some stronger equipment.

The Phil Wood has 4 sets of double pawls, as opposed to Shimano's 3 sets. The PW hub is guaranteed
for life, so if nothing else, it won't cost me to fix things (other than some labor)...

Extra sets of pawls won't make any difference, because only one bears the load. Even if the pawls
are designed to engage simultaneously, there's no way to make tolerances in a bike hub tight enough
so that more than one set bears the load. Several hub makers have used this as an advertising hook,
but it's a load of garbage.

That isn't to say that Phil Hubs don't have *stronger* pawls than Shimano, though.

Hugi hubs have some other problems, but their dog ratchet system (instead of pawls) is very strong.

You might also try the Shimano "silent clutch" LX hub, which is allegedly stronger than the regular
one. They're cheap, too.

Your best bet is to look into what tandem riders use. Tandems not only have twice the weight, but
(theoretically) twice the muscle. So if it's strong enough for a tandem, it's probably strong enough
for a big single rider.

There are also a few big riders on this forum, who have dealt with this issue. So I rephrased your
subject to attract attention from them.

For strong wheels -- Sun Rhyno Lites, 36 double-butted spokes each, 3X, well-built and
stress-relieved, on the hubs of your choice.

Matt O.

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

Your best bet is to look into what tandem riders use. Tandems not only have twice the weight, but
(theoretically) twice the muscle. So if it's strong enough for a tandem, it's probably strong
enough for a big single rider.

There are also a few big riders on this forum, who have dealt with this issue. So I rephrased your
subject to attract attention from them.

For strong wheels -- Sun Rhyno Lites, 36 double-butted spokes each, 3X, well-built and
stress-relieved, on the hubs of your choice.

Agree on the rim and spokes. For hubs: Chris King Tandem. We demolished two WTB New Paradigm hubs
while off-roading on the tandem (together we weigh 290 lbs). To WTB's credit I must add that they
rebuilt them under warranty at top speed: the second time around the hub went from the Netherlands
to the US and back in 11 days! It's now in our gentle- touring wheel and works dandy.

After this I sent some e-mails with the abovementioned "hub woes" to several hub suppliers among
which King and Wood. King replied very quickly stating they guarantee their hubs for 5 years, no
questions asked. So you can even use them for racing and whatever, if properly maintained your
warranty is never void. Since this investment ($350 *IS* an investment) we've never experienced hub
problems anymore.

The OP must bear in mind however that he cannot use tandem hubs just like that: they are too wide
for his frame. But King's drive system is in all their hubs so one might expect their normal hubs to
stay in one piece, too.

--
Regards, Marten

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Extra sets of pawls won't make any difference, because only one bears the load. Even if the pawls
are designed to engage simultaneously, there's no way to make tolerances in a bike hub tight
enough so that more than one set bears the load. Several hub makers have used this as an
advertising hook, but it's a load of garbage.

That isn't to say that Phil Hubs don't have *stronger* pawls than Shimano, though.

Ahhh... here's an excerpt from my email conversation with the Phil Wood tech:

| We use four double row pawls on a 20 tooth ratchet where shimano
uses three
| single row on a 18 tooth ratchet. So, yes, our hubs will handle quite a bit more torque than the
shimanos
| you've been killing.

| Our mtn hub uses the same internal mech as our tandem hubs if that
makes you
| feel better.

Which, if I read correctly, sounds like they've got 2 pawls in each set. So, 2 pawls should be
active at any point. As opposed to Shimano's 1 pawl...

Quoted message said:

Hugi hubs have some other problems, but their dog ratchet system (instead of pawls) is
very strong.

You might also try the Shimano "silent clutch" LX hub, which is allegedly stronger than the
regular one. They're cheap, too.

Actually, that was the first one I broke, way back when I first bought my Raleigh M600. When I broke
that one (riding only on the soft (muddy) soil in Oregon) the mechanics couldn't get the freehub
body off, and I had to replace the whole wheel. -- Which makes me really wonder what could have gone
wrong (now that I know how to do it myself).

My second choice for a freehub is the Chris King. And if I break the Phil Wood, I'll be pushing to
get a refund and will apply the money to a Chris King. I like Chris King's corporate stance on the
environment and manufacturing.

Quoted message said:

Your best bet is to look into what tandem riders use. Tandems not only have twice the weight, but
(theoretically) twice the muscle. So if it's strong enough for a tandem, it's probably strong
enough for a big single rider.

Right - thus the Phil Wood choice. Which is only one of several highly-recommended alternatives.

Quoted message said:

There are also a few big riders on this forum, who have dealt with this issue. So I rephrased your
subject to attract attention from them.

Thanks.

BFW

I have some unique experience with a PW ratchet assembly in that I wore one out. It took about
twenty thousand miles. When I set out for Florida there wasn't enough length for any pawl to engage.
PW sent replacement parts and the special tool by 'yesterday mail'!

There are four equidistant pawls, each partially divided by a notch/groove for the circular spring
that provides the force 'up' into the ratchet. "Partially' divided so it is really one pawl. Metals
are elastic so that a slightly high spot will generally share some load. Similarly, while two pawls
can't be precisely identical, some load can be shared.

All else being equal, PW ratchets are easily disassembled for cleaning and repair. When I alternate
chains, I now clean the ratchet.

I tour on a 40-ish pound recumbent towing a 40 lb BOB and I weigh 220 lbs.

Mark Wolfe said:

I have a BMX cruiser that I built up with 36h Sun BFR rims laced to Suzue hubs. I can attest that
rim is darn near bullet proof, not sure if they make it in a mountain bike size however. 🙂

The MTB version of the Sun BFR is called the Mammoth. It is the only rim I have tried in 32 hole
drilling that has held up under my 360ish pounds.

The Mammoth is a good 200g heavier than the Rhyno Lite, though-- not to mention a little wider and
much taller.

Chalo Colina

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

... but if you're mashing gigantic gears, there's only so much stress a freewheel body can take
regardless of manufacture - physical size determines the upper limit!

What have gears go to do with it? For the most part gears are not a factor since there is no gearing
between the pawls and the wheel. The force at the pawls is directly proportional to whatever torque
is turning the wheel at any given time. That doesn't change when "mashing gigantic gears," (assuming
the gearing is the only variable) even though more torque is applied to the pedals. And in actuality
the most torque applied to the pawls would take place with a combination of both the smallest gear
and the highest pedal torque, like on a steep climb out of the saddle. Pushing a big gear on the
flat may use more *POWER* but torque is the factor most likely to break things.

DR