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Centerpull brakes

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Cycling Equipment
Published
16 October 2003
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20 November 2003
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Gary Young
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  1. Though I've been critical of Grant Peterson's effort to revive centerpull brakes, I have to admit
    that the latest Rivendell Reader (#30) gave me reasons to pause.

    First of all, in the letters section, a reader (Thomas Papetti) points out that dual-pivot sidepulls
    won't track an out-of-true rim the way all other brake types will. I'm not sure how much that counts
    in favor of centerpulls (Papetti doesn't discuss them at all). Even though most riders would
    probably use long-reach dual pivots in lieu of centerpulls, long-reach single-pivot sidepulls and
    cantilevers are still available if tracking is a significant worry.

    Then in an article, Jan Heine makes several claims for the superiority of sidepulls.

    He says, "The long lever on the cable side [above the pivot, if I understand him correctly] and the
    short lever on the pad side [below the pivot] gives centerpulls a huge mechanical advantage over
    sidepulls. Just like a bolt-cutter, where long arms and short jaws allow you to cut through thick
    steel bolts." Later on, he adds that only with the advent of dual-pivot brakes did sidepulls catch
    up to centerpulls in this respect.

    That doesn't seem to jibe with Jobst's discussion in the FAQ, which seems to suggest that
    single-pivot sidepulls and centerpulls had the same mechanical advantage.

    He argues that only the part of the arm below the pivot needs to be beefy, because that's the only
    place where flex matters. "As a result, the arms above the pivots can be incredibly skinny, as they
    don't need to resist flex. That is where the weight savings of a centerpull originate." He doesn't
    say what the weight savings is.

    He writes, "And since the pivot on centerpull brakes is on the fork leg, adding reach does not
    increase the flex or change the mechanical advantage. So there is not incentive to go to short-reach
    brakes." I think he means that since the distance between the pad and the pivot point always remains
    the same, adding lever length above the pivot doesn't effect the mechanical advantage. That sounds
    dubious to me -- doesn't changing the length of a cantilever brake's straddle cable effect
    mechanical advantage even if all else remains the same? Furthermore, from the photos of old
    centerpulls in the Reader, it doesn't seem as if the distance from pivot to pad was always kept
    constant (some long-reach brakes seem to achieve that reach in part by increasing the lever below
    the pivot).

    He notes that centerpulls don't stick out to the side like centerpulls. It seems to me that that
    problem can be cured by using v-brakes, though that introduces problems of its own (e.g., mating
    them to road levers).

    He says that even the standard-reach (what would be called long-reach by most) dual-pivot brakes
    offered by Shimano don't leave much room for fenders. Is that true? Just how big a tire would you
    have to run before you would crowd out the dual pivots? (Elsewhere in the Reader, Grant says that
    centerpulls will clear a 40mm tire or a 38mm tire with fenders; what's the limit with the current
    long-reach dual pivots?) Furthermore, why not long-reach single-pivots, which are still available?

    Probably his most controversial claim is that single-pivot sidepulls "offered inferior performance"
    and became widespread mostly because of Campagnolo's advertising and gruppo packaging. Contrast that
    with Jobst's claim in the FAQ that, "The centerpull brake of the 1950's, was popular for nearly a
    decade, in spite of being entirely without merit, being worse in all respects than the side pull
    brake with which it competed."

    In the past, I've been pretty fed up with Grant's talk of reviving centerpulls, because it so often
    appeared side-by-side with complaints about Rivendell's financial straits and lack of popularity. I
    do notice a more refreshing tone in this issue: he mentions a bike planned for next year that will
    have braze-on pivots for centerpulls and adds, "But we don't expect anybody to follow that lead.,
    and we fully expect to sell fewer bikes because of it. Centerpulls, for as much sense as they make,
    will still scare off most customers."

  2. (Gary Young) said:

    Though I've been critical of Grant Peterson's effort to revive centerpull brakes, I have to admit
    that the latest Rivendell Reader (#30) gave me reasons to pause.

    Back in the eighties I was a great fan of centrepull brakes, partly because I believed them to be
    greater in stopping power but mainly because I found them much more easy to adjust. That is, in my
    opinion, a big benefit!

    As you point out they give considerable and equal leverage to both blocks, acting symmetrically on
    both sides of the rim. This certainly looks to me to be better leverage than the single pivot
    calipers that were current at the time. However, cantilever brakes have at least equal leverage, are
    lighter, are more securely mounted to the bike, and are even easier to adjust - for a very small
    penalty in wind resistance. Where ultimate speed is not the issue they seem to me to be definitely
    preferable over the older style crossed lever centrepulls. If ultimate low windage is a
    consideration you're probably going to use dual pivot calipers these days anyway.

    I know that V brakes have largely taken over from cantis, but personally I'm not yet persuaded that
    they offer a real practical benefit for most uses - I think they're more of a style statement, and
    the special levers mean that they're not so easy to interchange with other components. But I can't
    now see any reason to prefer old-style crossed lever centrepulls to cantilevers.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    my other car is #<Subr-Car: #5d480> ;; This joke is not funny in emacs.

  3. Simon Brooke said:

    I know that V brakes have largely taken over from cantis, but personally I'm not yet persuaded
    that they offer a real practical benefit for most uses - I think they're more of a style
    statement, and the special levers mean that they're not so easy to interchange with other
    components. But I can't now see any reason to prefer old-style crossed lever centrepulls to
    cantilevers.

    I haven't used sidepulls since my mid-70s Schwinn Continental was stolen in 1976. As I recall they
    were Dia-Compes. What I recall about them is that they stopped the bike fine. I've never seen weight
    comparisons, which by rights ought to include all the relevant hardware such as hangers, straddle
    wires, etc. Also, it's never seemed that there were cantilevers of the same quality as a Campy, Dura
    Ace or Superbe sidepull.

    From a design perspective, it seems to me that (1) centerpulls are much more complicated than either
    single- or dual-pivot sidepulls; and
    (2) centerpulls are more prone to flex under the force of the rim acting on the brake pads, mainly
    due to flex in the hanger with the center bolt and pivots. I've never tried centerpulls mounted
    on braze-ons, which might reduce or eliminate the flex problem. A number of people seem to claim
    this is the case, including Tony Oliver, Jan Heine and Grant Petersen. They've used 'em and I
    haven't, so at this point I have to take their word for it.

    V-brakes were created to benefit the mountain bike industry. The issue was cable routing and
    simplifying basic setup, which created an economies-of-scale cost savings for manufacturers like
    Giant, Cannondale, Trek, etc. The need for a cable hanger was problematic for rear suspension and,
    to a lesser extent, front suspension. Plus they were new and different, and a less-than-astute bike
    magazine industry mistakenly took V-brakes as a consumer-side improvement rather than a supply-side
    improvement.

    There may be some benefits for consumers, of course. It's harder to set up V-brakes wrongly than is
    the case with cantilevers. The lever feel is different because there is less friction loss with the
    longer cable pull. The mechanical advantage is slightly higher, trading off modulation for reduced
    hand grip. There are downsides, including very close tolerances between the rim and the brake,
    which is a problem if the wheel gets bent or a spoke breaks. And the pads are much thinner, wearing
    out faster and needing to be replaced more often (also, the thinner pads are much less
    compressible, which adds to the "power brake" feeling of V-brakes; this is mistakenly perceived as
    "more stopping power"😉.

    Every decent brake- whether sidepull, centerpull, cantilever, V-brake, disc brake, drum brake, what
    have you- provides enough stopping power to make the wheel skid. In that regard, none of these
    brakes provide more stopping power than the others. The question of choice really rests on other
    factors (lever feel, cable routing, clearance, etc).

  4. [email hidden] (Gary Young) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Though I've been critical of Grant Peterson's effort to revive centerpull brakes, I have to admit
    that the latest Rivendell Reader (#30) gave me reasons to pause.

    First of all, in the letters section, a reader (Thomas Papetti) points out that dual-pivot
    sidepulls won't track an out-of-true rim the way all other brake types will. I'm not sure how much
    that counts in favor of centerpulls (Papetti doesn't discuss them at all). Even though most riders
    would probably use long-reach dual pivots in lieu of centerpulls, long-reach single-pivot
    sidepulls and cantilevers are still available if tracking is a significant worry.

    Then in an article, Jan Heine makes several claims for the superiority of sidepulls.

    That should be "superiority of centerpulls."

    Quoted message said:


    He says, "The long lever on the cable side [above the pivot, if I understand him correctly] and
    the short lever on the pad side [below the pivot] gives centerpulls a huge mechanical advantage
    over sidepulls. Just like a bolt-cutter, where long arms and short jaws allow you to cut through
    thick steel bolts." Later on, he adds that only with the advent of dual-pivot brakes did sidepulls
    catch up to centerpulls in this respect.

    That doesn't seem to jibe with Jobst's discussion in the FAQ, which seems to suggest that
    single-pivot sidepulls and centerpulls had the same mechanical advantage.

    He argues that only the part of the arm below the pivot needs to be beefy, because that's the only
    place where flex matters. "As a result, the arms above the pivots can be incredibly skinny, as
    they don't need to resist flex. That is where the weight savings of a centerpull originate." He
    doesn't say what the weight savings is.

    He writes, "And since the pivot on centerpull brakes is on the fork leg, adding reach does not
    increase the flex or change the mechanical advantage. So there is not incentive to go to
    short-reach brakes." I think he means that since the distance between the pad and the pivot point
    always remains the same, adding lever length above the pivot doesn't effect the mechanical
    advantage. That sounds dubious to me -- doesn't changing the length of a cantilever brake's
    straddle cable effect mechanical advantage even if all else remains the same? Furthermore, from
    the photos of old centerpulls in the Reader, it doesn't seem as if the distance from pivot to pad
    was always kept constant (some long-reach brakes seem to achieve that reach in part by increasing
    the lever below the pivot).

    He notes that centerpulls don't stick out to the side like centerpulls.

    Should be "centerpulls don't stick out to the side like cantilevers."

    Quoted message said:

    It seems to me that that problem can be cured by using v-brakes, though that introduces problems
    of its own (e.g., mating them to road levers).

    He says that even the standard-reach (what would be called long-reach by most) dual-pivot brakes
    offered by Shimano don't leave much room for fenders. Is that true? Just how big a tire would you
    have to run before you would crowd out the dual pivots? (Elsewhere in the Reader, Grant says that
    centerpulls will clear a 40mm tire or a 38mm tire with fenders; what's the limit with the current
    long-reach dual pivots?) Furthermore, why not long-reach single-pivots, which are still available?

    Probably his most controversial claim is that single-pivot sidepulls "offered inferior
    performance" and became widespread mostly because of Campagnolo's advertising and gruppo
    packaging. Contrast that with Jobst's claim in the FAQ that, "The centerpull brake of the 1950's,
    was popular for nearly a decade, in spite of being entirely without merit, being worse in all
    respects than the side pull brake with which it competed."

    In the past, I've been pretty fed up with Grant's talk of reviving centerpulls, because it so
    often appeared side-by-side with complaints about Rivendell's financial straits and lack of
    popularity. I do notice a more refreshing tone in this issue: he mentions a bike planned for next
    year that will have braze-on pivots for centerpulls and adds, "But we don't expect anybody to
    follow that lead., and we fully expect to sell fewer bikes because of it. Centerpulls, for as much
    sense as they make, will still scare off most customers."

  5. Gary Young said:

    Though I've been critical of Grant Peterson's effort to revive centerpull brakes, I have to admit
    that the latest Rivendell Reader (#30) gave me reasons to pause.

    I think two things should be noted about all brakes before the dual pivot era, and that is they all
    had a 1:1 ratio in the "caliper" and a
    4:1 ratio in the hand lever, all brakes being interchangeable under any hand lever. This includes
    sidepull, centerpull and cantilever.

    The second feature is that sidepull brakes have the pad pivot above and only slightly (rim half
    width) offset from the braking surface so that there is essentially no position change as the pad
    sweeps through its wear life (cosine error). Centerpull and cantilever brakes approach the rim at
    nearly a 45 degree angle and have large vertical change throughout pad wear life, so much so that
    cantilever brakes have dived under the rim leaving the bicycle with no brake at all.

    The cantilever dives under but had the advantage of endless mud or radial tire clearance, the
    centerpull goes into the tire as it wears and offers no advantages whatsoever. I believe that is why
    it died so quickly as it should have. It was sold on the premise that it had a higher mechanical
    advantage, something that at first inspection it appears to have through its long levers. They are
    twice as long as the pad arms... but there are two of them, each receiving half the force.

    Quoted message said:

    First of all, in the letters section, a reader (Thomas Papetti) points out that dual-pivot
    sidepulls won't track an out-of-true rim the way all other brake types will. I'm not sure how much
    that counts in favor of centerpulls (Papetti doesn't discuss them at all). Even though most riders
    would probably use long-reach dual pivots in lieu of centerpulls, long-reach single-pivot
    sidepulls and cantilevers are still available if tracking is a significant worry.

    Quoted message said:

    Then in an article, Jan Heine makes several claims for the superiority of sidepulls.

    Quoted message said:

    He says, "The long lever on the cable side [above the pivot, if I understand him correctly] and
    the short lever on the pad side [below the pivot] gives centerpulls a huge mechanical advantage
    over sidepulls. Just like a bolt-cutter, where long arms and short jaws allow you to cut through
    thick steel bolts." Later on, he adds that only with the advent of dual-pivot brakes did sidepulls
    catch up to centerpulls in this respect.

    Quoted message said:

    That doesn't seem to jibe with Jobst's discussion in the FAQ, which seems to suggest that
    single-pivot sidepulls and centerpulls had the same mechanical advantage.

    They had to have the same ME or you couldn't operate them with the same pad clearance. The purpose
    of the dual pivot is to allow half the pad clearance of former brakes and this required accurate
    centering. This is necessary to offer the higher mechanical advantage today's avocational riders
    need to stop their bicycles.

    Just recall the story bicycle shops had to come up with to explain why riders could not stop their
    Campagnolo Record equipped bicycles... "These are racing brakes. Racers only need to modulate speed,
    not stop." and the like. If you believe that you deserve to be led around by the nose. The faster
    you go the harder you must brake. Descending a mountain pass with straights and hairpin turns
    requires standing the bicycle on its front wheel into every turn. This is done with two fingers by
    racers using 4:1 brakes.

    Quoted message said:

    He argues that only the part of the arm below the pivot needs to be beefy, because that's the only
    place where flex matters. "As a result, the arms above the pivots can be incredibly skinny, as
    they don't need to resist flex. That is where the weight savings of a centerpull originate." He
    doesn't say what the weight savings is.

    Flex in any part of the system eats up hand lever stroke. Who invents this [censored] and bull stuff
    anyway? The lower arm must be stronger because it is loaded in torsion from brake pad drag.

    Quoted message said:

    He writes, "And since the pivot on centerpull brakes is on the fork leg, adding reach does not
    increase the flex or change the mechanical advantage. So there is not incentive to go to
    short-reach brakes." I think he means that since the distance between the pad and the pivot point
    always remains the same, adding lever length above the pivot doesn't effect the mechanical
    advantage. That sounds dubious to me -- doesn't changing the length of a cantilever brake's
    straddle cable effect mechanical advantage even if all else remains the same? Furthermore, from
    the photos of old centerpulls in the Reader, it doesn't seem as if the distance from pivot to pad
    was always kept constant (some long-reach brakes seem to achieve that reach in part by increasing
    the lever below the pivot).

    These are not people to be believed. They have no idea what they are talking about and do it
    profusely. It reminds me of the kooks I see at InterBike every year with a new crank mechanism that
    will make you go faster, not to mention how much mechanism and weight it adds to the bicycle.

    Quoted message said:

    He notes that centerpulls don't stick out to the side like sidepulls. It seems to me that that
    problem can be cured by using v-brakes, though that introduces problems of its own (e.g., mating
    them to road levers).

    How far??? What is the issue here anyway. Is it perhaps streamlining or just someone who suffers
    from the "loose ends" syndrome (things that protrude, as in toilet paper rolls that pay off the
    front instead of the back [hidden ends])?

    Quoted message said:

    He says that even the standard-reach (what would be called long-reach by most) dual-pivot brakes
    offered by Shimano don't leave much room for fenders. Is that true?

    NO.

    Quoted message said:

    Just how big a tire would you have to run before you would crowd out the dual pivots? (Elsewhere
    in the Reader, Grant says that centerpulls will clear a 40mm tire or a 38mm tire with fenders;
    what's the limit with the current long-reach dual pivots?) Furthermore, why not long-reach
    single-pivots, which are still available?

    Quoted message said:

    Probably his most controversial claim is that single-pivot sidepulls "offered inferior
    performance" and became widespread mostly because of Campagnolo's advertising and gruppo
    packaging. Contrast that with Jobst's claim in the FAQ that, "The centerpull brake of the 1950's,
    was popular for nearly a decade, in spite of being entirely without merit, being worse in all
    respects than the side pull brake with which it competed."

    A conspiracy! The sidepull brake is the obvious mechanism for road bicycles to all who understand
    mechanical design. All this other stuff is amateur thinking guided by misunderstanding of the
    concept. Even places like Campagnolo are not immune. After Tullio died the place was run by
    incompetents who made the Delta brake, a non linear response brake with huge cosine error. It was an
    Ide? fixe of someone with "loose end" syndrome, externally clean but a mess inside.

    draco.acs.uci.edu8f.15.html

    Quoted message said:

    In the past, I've been pretty fed up with Grant's talk of reviving centerpulls, because it so
    often appeared side-by-side with complaints about Rivendell's financial straits and lack of
    popularity. I do notice a more refreshing tone in this issue: he mentions a bike planned for next
    year that will have braze-on pivots for centerpulls and adds, "But we don't expect anybody to
    follow that lead., and we fully expect to sell fewer bikes because of it. Centerpulls, for as much
    sense as they make, will still scare off most customers."

    ... and they should. Now let's hear it again concisely. What are the advantages?

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  6. Tim McNamara said:

    Every decent brake- whether sidepull, centerpull, cantilever, V-brake, disc brake, drum brake,
    what have you- provides enough stopping power to make the wheel skid. In that regard, none of
    these brakes provide more stopping power than the others. The question of choice really rests on
    other factors (lever feel, cable routing, clearance, etc).

    That may be true today but for the older brakes, before dual pivot, it was not. 4:1 leverage was
    more than a non athletic rider could handle, especially with two fingers.

    The different ratio hand levers caused problems for which people found solutions. One of these was
    the Travel Agent, a clever and appropriate name that we don't hear much about now that the dust
    has settled.

    tinyurl.comr6la

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  7. (Gary Young) said:

    In the past, I've been pretty fed up with Grant's talk of reviving centerpulls, because it so often
    appeared side-by-side with complaints about Rivendell's financial straits and lack of popularity. I
    do notice a more refreshing tone in this issue: he mentions a bike planned for next year that will
    have braze-on pivots for centerpulls and adds, "But we don't expect anybody to follow that lead.,
    and we fully expect to sell fewer bikes because of it.

    I have owned 2 bikes with centerpulls (raleigh grand prix, dawes low-end), and 3 bikes with
    sidepulls (schwinn paramount, trek 500, alan), and 1 bike with dual-pivot sidepulls (trek 2300) and
    one bike with U-brakes (schwinn moab). I currently live on a very steep hill in san diego, present.
    In terms of stopping power, this is where I think that things stack up.

    sidepulls (campy) - worst dual-pivots (shimano) - better centerpulls - best

    U-brakes - hard to gauge since these are on a totally different kind of (mountain) bike.

    It is worth pointing out that when i recently got the Alan bike with campy sidepulls, I immediately
    removed the campy pads and put new low-end pads on it, since the campy pads weren't working. I then
    took off the low end pads and bought premium oversized shimano pads, since the low-end pads weren't
    working. the premium (ultegra) pads just barely work. I am still very unhappy with the campy gran
    sport sidepull performance, and I feel jeopardized every time i go down the hill.

    Campy and Shimano marketing hype aside, i think you can easily determine the most powerful brakes by
    looking historically at what got installed on tandem bicycles in the past. In the late 1960's and
    1970's and 1980's, the choices were :

    cantilevers - best centerpulls - second best

    no sidepulls installed on tandems. even today, nobody puts dual-pivots on tandems.

    i like the higher braking precision in centerpulls. The lever travel is farther on centerpulls and
    so you know there is more mechanical advantage. you can see it just by placing a set of weinmann
    levers next to some campy levers.

    that's all i need to know.

    - Don Gillies San Diego, CA

  8. (Donald Gillies) said:

    I have owned 2 bikes with centerpulls (raleigh grand prix, dawes low-end), and 3 bikes with
    sidepulls (schwinn paramount, trek 500, alan), and 1 bike with dual-pivot sidepulls (trek 2300)
    and one bike with U-brakes (schwinn moab). I currently live on a very steep hill in san diego,
    present. In terms of stopping power, this is where I think that things stack up.

    sidepulls (campy) - worst dual-pivots (shimano) - better centerpulls - best

    U-brakes - hard to gauge since these are on a totally different kind of (mountain) bike.

    Actually, U-brakes were just a new name for an old design" centerpulls. Take a close look, they are
    just centerpull brakes with a slightly different arm shape.

    Quoted message said:

    It is worth pointing out that when i recently got the Alan bike with campy sidepulls, I
    immediately removed the campy pads and put new low-end pads on it, since the campy pads weren't
    working. I then took off the low end pads and bought premium oversized shimano pads, since the
    low-end pads weren't working. the premium (ultegra) pads just barely work. I am still very
    unhappy with the campy gran sport sidepull performance, and I feel jeopardized every time i go
    down the hill.

    Try Mathauser or KoolStop Continental slamon colored pads. They work better than any other pad on
    the market IMHO.

  9. Quoted message said:
    Tim McNamara said:

    Every decent brake- whether sidepull, centerpull, cantilever, V-brake, disc brake, drum brake,
    what have you- provides enough stopping power to make the wheel skid. In that regard, none of
    these brakes provide more stopping power than the others. The question of choice really rests on
    other factors (lever feel, cable routing, clearance, etc).

    That may be true today but for the older brakes, before dual pivot, it was not. 4:1 leverage was
    more than a non athletic rider could handle, especially with two fingers.

    I'll concede that and excuse myself by admitting a limited point of viewq. Having always been an
    "athletic" rider, I never have had trouble with being able to squeeze any brake lever hard enough to
    make the brake work. Being 6'4" and having commensurately sized hands, I have tended to find brake
    lever bodies too small and uncomfortable (only the 1998 and later Campy Ergo lever bodies feel
    really comfortable to me).

    Certainly my sidepulls with non-aero levers take more effort to use than my dual pivot Campy Ergo
    brakes/levers. I don't remember what the centerpull lever feel was like. I will agree that all
    brakes are not equal from the practical, ergonomic perspective.

  10. Tim McNamara said:

    From a design perspective, it seems to me that (1) centerpulls are much more complicated than
    either single- or dual-pivot sidepulls;

    More so than single-pivot, less so than dual-pivot as the pivots are symmetrical and there is no
    proportioning mechanism.

    Quoted message said:

    and (2) centerpulls are more prone to flex under the force of the rim acting on the brake pads,
    mainly due to flex in the hanger with the center bolt and pivots.

    If you have developed such an impression, it was probably due to the reach length of any centerpull
    brakes you have tried being well in excess of whichever sidepull you were using for comparison.

    Centerpulls locate the mechanical pivots, and their accompanying play, further down the lever arm,
    for less effect on overall pad deflection at the rim. The "bridge" element containing the pivot
    studs is typically stouter than the analogous portion of sidepull arm.

    Quoted message said:

    I've never tried centerpulls mounted on braze-ons, which might reduce or eliminate the flex
    problem. A number of people seem to claim this is the case, including Tony Oliver, Jan Heine and
    Grant Petersen. They've used 'em and I haven't, so at this point I have to take their word for it.

    Brazed-on pivots work. That is the definitive difference between the road bike centerpull as used
    during the bike boom, and the U-brake as used during the 80s MTB craze. The stopping power of a
    U-brake dwarfs that of any road bike brake ever made, and U-brakes were no more difficult to set up
    than a road caliper.

    Brazing centerpull pivots to the frame usually reduces the overhung length by more than half, and it
    usually anchors the brake to a stiffer piece of the frame than a centerbolt does. What flex remains
    can be attenuated by a booster plate, unlike flex that occurs at a centerbolt.

    Quoted message said:

    Every decent brake- whether sidepull, centerpull, cantilever, V-brake, disc brake, drum brake,
    what have you- provides enough stopping power to make the wheel skid.

    --in the rear, if you are a single lightweight rider on a short-wheelbase upright bike without a
    heavy load. The incapacity of the road caliper brake as furnished to provide more stopping power
    when appropriate is its most serious shortcoming.

    The ability of cantilever brakes, U-brakes (and other stud-mounted centerpulls), v-brakes, and
    hydraulic rim brakes to be set up to deliver more stopping power than most riders require is what
    makes them versatile and valuable, even if it is of no benefit to most sport riders.

    Chalo Colina

  11. Gary Young said:

    Though I've been critical of Grant Peterson's effort to revive centerpull brakes, I have to admit
    that the latest Rivendell Reader (#30) gave me reasons to pause.

    My memories of center-pull brakes were not all that pleasant. I remember when most racing bikes had
    them, in the late '60s. The competition, then, were usually poorly-designed sidepulls, which would
    tend to rotate so that one pad would drag on the rim. Campy sidepulls changed all that, and everyone
    went for them despite the outrageous cost. They could be properly centered fairly easily, and stayed
    where you put them.

    Centerpulls depended on the balance of their springs to center them. Use and dirt would make them
    one-sided as easily as old sidepulls. They also were mushy, so that it was easy to bottom out the
    lever in a hard stop, especially in wet weather.

    Modern dual-pivot sidepulls, and probably the Campy single-pivot rear brake, are much easier to
    adjust, stay where they are adjusted, and do an excellent job. I also think that V brakes work quite
    well, and have the advantage of huge tire clearance. The angle problem mentioned by Jobst has not
    been a difficulty for me, but would be if you were not attentive to pad wear. I know that modern
    cantilever brakes also are easy to adjust, but they still have the variable-pull characteristic of
    old center-pulls.

    Quoted message said:

    dual-pivot sidepulls won't track an out-of-true rim the way all other brake types will.

    Why would that be the case? I don't see how the mechanism would be that different. Of course,
    dual-pivot brakes have short reach and so small possible "tracking" distance, but they would have
    some capability.

    Quoted message said:

    He says, "The long lever on the cable side [above the pivot, if I understand him correctly] and
    the short lever on the pad side [below the pivot] gives centerpulls a huge mechanical advantage
    over sidepulls.

    The problem with this is that any increased mechanical advantage means more cable pull for an
    equivalent motion of the pad, so the lever has to have less mechanical advantage as a result. Net
    advantage, 0. You have to be able to exert maximum force on the system before the lever bottoms out,
    and you need the same open pad clearance on any brake. There isn't enough room to increase the
    mechanical advantage and still have a usable lever. You can decrease, slightly, pad clearance when
    the brake is open, but that means the wheels have to be kept true. A broken spoke makes the bike
    impossible to ride, not the best for a tour.

    The only other factor that comes into play is arm flex, which centerpulls had in spades.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. -- _`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
    (_)/ (_) |

  12. Tim McNamara said:

    Certainly my sidepulls with non-aero levers take more effort to use than my dual pivot Campy Ergo
    brakes/levers. I don't remember what the centerpull lever feel was like. I will agree that all
    brakes are not equal from the practical, ergonomic perspective.

    If you mean the classic 1970s style centrepull - the things Weinnman made in such huge numbers - the
    answer has to be 'worryingly spongy', presumably because of flex in the system. Still, they worked
    well enough when all the competition was single-pivot calipers, and those, in their turn, were
    infinitely superior to the roller-lever brakes they superceded.

    When I was a kid bicycle brakes that we had access to did not match the sort of performance we could
    get out of our bikes downhill. We certainly could not have locked wheels at speed. Forty years of
    development really have achieved something.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon ;; gif ye hes forget our auld
    plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you, ;; in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin,
    for I am nocht ;; acquyntit with your Southeron ;; Letter frae Ninian Winyet tae John Knox datit 27t
    October 1563

  13. [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I have owned 2 bikes with centerpulls (raleigh grand prix, dawes low-end), and 3 bikes with
    sidepulls (schwinn paramount, trek 500, alan), and 1 bike with dual-pivot sidepulls (trek 2300)
    and one bike with U-brakes (schwinn moab). I currently live on a very steep hill in san diego,
    present. In terms of stopping power, this is where I think that things stack up.

    sidepulls (campy) - worst dual-pivots (shimano) - better centerpulls - best

    U-brakes - hard to gauge since these are on a totally different kind of (mountain) bike.

    It is worth pointing out that when i recently got the Alan bike with campy sidepulls, I
    immediately removed the campy pads and put new low-end pads on it, since the campy pads weren't
    working. I then took off the low end pads and bought premium oversized shimano pads, since the
    low-end pads weren't working. the premium (ultegra) pads just barely work. I am still very
    unhappy with the campy gran sport sidepull performance, and I feel jeopardized every time i go
    down the hill.

    Have you compared all three brakes using the same pad? Or at least the same make of pad?

    Quoted message said:


    Campy and Shimano marketing hype aside, i think you can easily determine the most powerful brakes
    by looking historically at what got installed on tandem bicycles in the past. In the late 1960's
    and 1970's and 1980's, the choices were :

    cantilevers - best centerpulls - second best

    no sidepulls installed on tandems. even today, nobody puts dual-pivots on tandems.

    Sheldon has a different take on that:

    "Few tandems come equipped with caliper brakes these days, because it is widely believed that
    caliper brakes don't have sufficient stopping power for tandem service. This belief is incorrect.
    Tandems set up for racing can get perfectly adequate braking from good quality caliper brakes....

    In the 1970's, center-pull caliper brakes were common, which did provide reasonable tire clearance,
    but these have gone out of fashion and are not provided on new bikes."

    Source: sheldonbrown.comtandem brakes.html.

  14. Quoted message said:

    ...sidepull brakes have the pad pivot above and only slightly (rim half width) offset from the
    braking surface so that there is essentially no position change as the pad sweeps through its wear
    life (cosine error). Centerpull and cantilever brakes approach the rim at nearly a 45 degree angle
    and have large vertical change throughout pad wear life,

    This trait of stud-mounted brakes can be accomodated by adusting the pad height as it wears. The pad
    rub on tire sidewalls exhibited by single-pivot sidepulls, however, is due to the extreme
    fore-to-aft flex these brakes display and can not reliably be adjusted away.

    This horrible characteristic of single-pivot sidepull brakes is IMO one of the reasons for the
    annoying move to "short reach" road calipers-- because the stubby arms of those brakes are somewhat
    resistant to allowing sidewall rub for most average-sized riders.

    Quoted message said:

    the centerpull goes into the tire as it wears and offers no advantages whatsoever.

    When mounted on frame studs, it offers vastly superior maximum stopping power to any caliper brake.
    I know this because I have bent many forks under the braking forces generated by U-brakes. Before
    applying stopping power like that, caliper brakes become so twisted out of shape that applying more
    cable tension does not result in more braking.

    Quoted message said:

    Flex in any part of the system eats up hand lever stroke.

    Insufficient stroke length can be addressed by using levers that pull more cable, and pulling them
    harder. However, the swinging flex endemic to all centerbolt-mounted brakes, and the torsional flex
    that is particularly pronounced in single-pivot brakes, act disproportionately to diminish the
    braking that can be applied regardless of how hard or how far the cable is pulled.

    The "ceiling" on stopping force resulting from flex-related distortion of the brake mechanism is
    lower, and more abrupt, with single-pivot calipers than with any other type of brake.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He notes that centerpulls don't stick out to the side like sidepulls.

    How far??? What is the issue here anyway.

    I have seen enough bikes damaged by the sidepull brake arm bashing into the downtube to think of
    that design characteristic as a liability.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He says that even the standard-reach (what would be called long-reach by most) dual-pivot brakes
    offered by Shimano don't leave much room for fenders. Is that true?

    NO.

    It is true if you wish to run decent-sized tires and fenders at the same time. Even the most
    careful brake placement will not allow "standard reach" dual-pivot calipers to encompass 38mm tires
    with fenders.

    Quoted message said:

    The sidepull brake is the obvious mechanism for road bicycles to all who understand mechanical
    design. All this other stuff is amateur thinking guided by misunderstanding of the concept.

    Sorry, but that's just not true. It might be "the obvious mechanism" if one is unconcerned about
    generating the most stopping force from a given amount of brake, and if one disregards the benefits
    of voluminous tires, and if one happily tolerates pad rub due to a brake design that can not be
    centered accurately. But most "who understand mechanical design" demand (or at least desire) better
    performance than that!

    Getting the brake pivot as close as practiceable to the pads pays huge dividends in turning lever
    force into stopping force. That very translation is exactly where single-pivot calipers are so weak.
    They only provide an approximately linear relationship between lever force and braking force up to a
    point-- a point easily exceeded by many riders in many circumstances.

    Add to this the inherent characteristic of them being impossible to center consistently, and
    it's not at all obvious that they are superior to the worst of other brake designs, let alone
    the best of them.

    Quoted message said:

    Now let's hear it again concisely. What are the advantages?

    Concisely? Stopping. Centering.

    Chalo Colina

  15. Tim McNamara said:
    (Donald Gillies) said:

    I have owned 2 bikes with centerpulls (raleigh grand prix, dawes low-end), and 3 bikes with
    sidepulls (schwinn paramount, trek 500, alan), and 1 bike with dual-pivot sidepulls (trek 2300)
    and one bike with U-brakes (schwinn moab). I currently live on a very steep hill in san diego,
    present. In terms of stopping power, this is where I think that things stack up.

    sidepulls (campy) - worst dual-pivots (shimano) - better centerpulls - best

    U-brakes - hard to gauge since these are on a totally different kind of (mountain) bike.

    Actually, U-brakes were just a new name for an old design" centerpulls. Take a close look, they
    are just centerpull brakes with a slightly different arm shape.

    To be fair, the U brakes mount to bosses on the forks rather than to a saddle which mounts to a bolt
    in the classic 'brake bolt' position. This must make them rather stronger and less flexible (and
    also probably lighter) than old-design centrepulls.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon ;; gif ye hes forget our auld
    plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you, ;; in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin,
    for I am nocht ;; acquyntit with your Southeron ;; Letter frae Ninian Winyet tae John Knox datit 27t
    October 1563

  16. "Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I have owned 2 bikes with centerpulls (raleigh grand prix, dawes low-end), and 3 bikes with
    sidepulls (schwinn paramount, trek 500, alan), and 1 bike with dual-pivot sidepulls (trek 2300)
    and one bike with U-brakes (schwinn moab). I currently live on a very steep hill in san diego,
    present. In terms of stopping power, this is where I think that things stack up.

    sidepulls (campy) - worst dual-pivots (shimano) - better centerpulls - best

    U-brakes - hard to gauge since these are on a totally different kind of (mountain) bike.

    It is worth pointing out that when i recently got the Alan bike with campy sidepulls, I
    immediately removed the campy pads and put new low-end pads on it, since the campy pads weren't
    working. I then took off the low end pads and bought premium oversized shimano pads, since the
    low-end pads weren't working. the premium (ultegra) pads just barely work. I am still very
    unhappy with the campy gran sport sidepull performance, and I feel jeopardized every time i go
    down the hill.

    Have you compared all three brakes using the same pad? Or at least the same make of pad?

    Quoted message said:


    Campy and Shimano marketing hype aside, i think you can easily determine the most powerful
    brakes by looking historically at what got installed on tandem bicycles in the past. In the late
    1960's and 1970's and 1980's, the choices were :

    cantilevers - best centerpulls - second best

    no sidepulls installed on tandems. even today, nobody puts dual-pivots on tandems.

    Sheldon has a different take on that:

    "Few tandems come equipped with caliper brakes these days, because it is widely believed that
    caliper brakes don't have sufficient stopping power for tandem service. This belief is incorrect.
    Tandems set up for racing can get perfectly adequate braking from good quality caliper brakes....

    In the 1970's, center-pull caliper brakes were common, which did provide reasonable tire
    clearance, but these have gone out of fashion and are not provided on new bikes."

    Source: sheldonbrown.comtandem brakes.html.

    Agree, Calfee's 28.5 lb *racing* tandem also uses sidepull caliper brakes too:

    calfeedesign.comtandem.shtml

    Of course, a "standard" Calfee tandem frame starts at $5300 and if you want the deluxe Dragonfly
    Custom tandem frame, 6 lb tandem frame, it will cost you $7400.....

  17. David L. Johnson said:

    My memories of center-pull brakes were not all that pleasant. I remember when most racing bikes
    had them, in the late '60s. The competition, then, were usually poorly-designed sidepulls, which
    would tend to rotate so that one pad would drag on the rim. Campy sidepulls changed all that, and
    everyone went for them despite the outrageous cost. They could be properly centered fairly easily,
    and stayed where you put them.

    I use those brakes today and find that they are as prone to going off center as well as any sliding
    return spring brake. That is one thing Campagnolo did not address but used the same return spring
    shape that was the downfall of all other sidepull brakes. This is the dual "ram's horn" shape, whose
    ends rotate about the center of the "ram's horn" instead of the pivot bolt.

    I was glad to see that the new Mavic side pull brake that I saw at InterBike has solved this problem
    and has a no-slide return spring. If you want to see how bad others are, note that Campagnolo and
    Shimano have a special sleeve in which the spring slides like a piston. This gets full of fine grit
    and changes the return force, the problem with non-dual pivot brakes.

    Quoted message said:

    Centerpulls depended on the balance of their springs to center them. Use and dirt would make them
    one-sided as easily as old sidepulls. They also were mushy, so that it was easy to bottom out the
    lever in a hard stop, especially in wet weather.

    That is the reason for having dual pivots.

    Their reasonably good centering may be the only sliver of benefit of the centerpull configuration.
    It arises from its use of "torsion" springs around the pivot bolts, and the short straddle cable
    that puts a strong bias on returning to center almost as if it were made of a rigid two bar linkage.
    To go off center the straddle cable would need to slide in the cable yoke.

    Quoted message said:

    Modern dual-pivot sidepulls, and probably the Campy single-pivot rear brake, are much easier to
    adjust, stay where they are adjusted, and do an excellent job. I also think that V brakes work
    quite well, and have the advantage of huge tire clearance. The angle problem mentioned by Jobst
    has not been a difficulty for me, but would be if you were not attentive to pad wear. I know that
    modern cantilever brakes also are easy to adjust, but they still have the variable-pull
    characteristic of old center-pulls.

    No current single pivot brake centers well because they all use the traditional "ram's horn" coil
    return spring.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    dual-pivot sidepulls won't track an out-of-true rim the way all other brake types will.

    Quoted message said:

    Why would that be the case? I don't see how the mechanism would be that different. Of course,
    dual-pivot brakes have short reach and so small possible "tracking" distance, but they would have
    some capability.

    It's not whether it should or not. The brake pads cannot move independently of the other. That is
    the reason for these brakes... to always remain centered. If you doubt it, try pushing the wheel
    sideways with the brake applied. Open the QR so the wheel can move if it wants to.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He says, "The long lever on the cable side [above the pivot, if I understand him correctly] and
    the short lever on the pad side [below the pivot] gives centerpulls a huge mechanical advantage
    over sidepulls.

    You'll notice that this ratio is 2:1 and that half the force goes to each side resulting in a
    caliper ratio of 1:1. I wrote an article about that in the 1970's for Bike World.

    Quoted message said:

    The problem with this is that any increased mechanical advantage means more cable pull for an
    equivalent motion of the pad, so the lever has to have less mechanical advantage as a result. Net
    advantage, 0. You have to be able to exert maximum force on the system before the lever bottoms
    out, and you need the same open pad clearance on any brake. There isn't enough room to increase
    the mechanical advantage and still have a usable lever. You can decrease, slightly, pad clearance
    when the brake is open, but that means the wheels have to be kept true. A broken spoke makes the
    bike impossible to ride, not the best for a tour.

    Today's road bicycles are dead in the water with a broken spoke, tire clearance in the frame or fork
    being almost that of brake pad clearance. This plays to the short bike, fast cornering aficionados.
    Everything has got to be as tightly packed as possible.

    Quoted message said:

    The only other factor that comes into play is arm flex, which centerpulls had in spades.

    ... to make up for all the positive features they didn't have.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  18. Chalo Colina said:
    Quoted message said:

    ...sidepull brakes have the pad pivot above and only slightly (rim half width) offset from the
    braking surface so that there is essentially no position change as the pad sweeps through its
    wear life (cosine error). Centerpull and cantilever brakes approach the rim at nearly a 45 degree
    angle and have large vertical change throughout pad wear life,

    Quoted message said:

    This trait of stud-mounted brakes can be accommodated by adjusting the pad height as it wears. The
    pad rub on tire sidewalls exhibited by single-pivot sidepulls, however, is due to the extreme
    fore-to-aft flex these brakes display and can not reliably be adjusted away.

    Quoted message said:

    This horrible characteristic of single-pivot sidepull brakes is IMO one of the reasons for the
    annoying move to "short reach" road calipers-- because the stubby arms of those brakes are
    somewhat resistant to allowing sidewall rub for most average-sized riders.

    Wait a minute, this is a geometric given, there is nothing you can do to the motion of the pad
    because it sweeps around its pivot and that pivot lies in the wrong place. Therefore when descending
    in bad weather, pads wear and sweep upward if the pivot point is above and outside of the tire.
    Cantilevers do the opposite and sweep downward, the angle of attack of both being roughly 45 degrees
    instead of near zero of a good sidepull.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the centerpull goes into the tire as it wears and offers no advantages whatsoever.

    Quoted message said:

    When mounted on frame studs, it offers vastly superior maximum stopping power to any caliper
    brake. I know this because I have bent many forks under the braking forces generated by U-brakes.
    Before applying stopping power like that, caliper brakes become so twisted out of shape that
    applying more cable tension does not result in more braking.

    OK, if you say so but you'll have to do some measurements to convince
    me. Regardless of where they are mounted, the mechanical advantage cannot be higher than the
    average human reach allows. You seem to be using hyperbole in that description. A brake that
    operates at the yield point will break off in short order. I have never seen a caliper that was
    bent from braking and I don't expect to see one.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Flex in any part of the system eats up hand lever stroke.

    Quoted message said:

    Insufficient stroke length can be addressed by using levers that pull more cable, and pulling them
    harder. However, the swinging flex endemic to all center bolt-mounted brakes, and the torsional
    flex that is particularly pronounced in single-pivot brakes, act disproportionately to diminish
    the braking that can be applied regardless of how hard or how far the cable is pulled.

    Levers that pull more cable are ones that have a lower mechanical advantage. You can't have both or
    we wouldn't use power brakes on cars. I don't know what torsional flex you are referring to but it
    isn't large. The toe-in of brake pads arises from pad rotation due to clearance and flex. That
    isn't much.

    Quoted message said:

    The "ceiling" on stopping force resulting from flex-related distortion of the brake mechanism is
    lower, and more abrupt, with single-pivot calipers than with any other type of brake.

    To what do you attribute this claim. I'm not sure what you mean by the ceiling anyway. Could you
    expand on that.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He notes that centerpulls don't stick out to the side like sidepulls.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    How far??? What is the issue here anyway.

    Quoted message said:

    I have seen enough bikes damaged by the sidepull brake arm bashing into the downtube to think of
    that design characteristic as a liability.

    I guess we'll have to live with that as we do with drinking glasses being brittle. I've been riding
    sidepull brakes a long time and have not had one damaged. Neither mine or those of my riding
    companions.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    He says that even the standard-reach (what would be called long-reach by most) dual-pivot brakes
    offered by Shimano don't leave much room for fenders. Is that true?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    NO.

    Quoted message said:

    It is true if you wish to run decent-sized tires and fenders at the same time. Even the most
    careful brake placement will not allow "standard reach" dual-pivot calipers to encompass 38mm
    tires with fenders.

    OK, I recall even back when brakes had far more clearance, split fenders that went to the back of
    the fork and continued from the brake bolt forward were the rave it you had to have racing brakes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The sidepull brake is the obvious mechanism for road bicycles to all who understand mechanical
    design. All this other stuff is amateur thinking guided by misunderstanding of the concept.

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry, but that's just not true. It might be "the obvious mechanism" if one is unconcerned about
    generating the most stopping force from a given amount of brake, and if one disregards the
    benefits of voluminous tires, and if one happily tolerates pad rub due to a brake design that can
    not be centered accurately. But most "who understand mechanical design" demand (or at least
    desire) better performance than that!

    I qualified that with road bicycle, but I probably should have said 28mm tires or smaller. Even
    then, larger calipers are available from people other than Campagnolo or Shimano. The point is that
    the side pull, or more accurately, the center pivot-bolt brake offers the best mechanism for
    bringing brake pads into contact with the rim.

    Quoted message said:

    Getting the brake pivot as close as practiceable to the pads pays huge dividends in turning lever
    force into stopping force. That very translation is exactly where single-pivot calipers are so
    weak. They only provide an approximately linear relationship between lever force and braking force
    up to a point-- a point easily exceeded by many riders in many circumstances.

    That is not the place where leverage needs to be gained. Besides tire size demands that centerpull
    and cantilever (and their derivatives) have their mounts far enough away so the wheel can be removed
    without letting the air out. This puts the pivot point at an undesirable location that makes the pad
    move at a steep angle across the braking surface.

    Quoted message said:

    Add to this the inherent characteristic of them being impossible to center consistently, and it's
    not at all obvious that they are superior to the worst of other brake designs, let alone the best
    of them.

    Ah, but they can be centered as you can see on the new Mavic brake that uses a spring that doesn't
    slide and suffer from friction variation, the cause of off center brakes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Now let's hear it again concisely. What are the advantages?

    Quoted message said:

    Concisely? Stopping. Centering.

    Somehow the stopping part is a mystery to me. I and the many riders with whom I have ridden have
    taken a lot of steep and long descents over many years and have not had a problem with that, yet
    you say they stop better. Better than what? I can raise the rear wheel on descents. I don't need
    more leverage.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  19. Gary Young said:


    He says that even the standard-reach (what would be called long-reach by most) dual-pivot brakes
    offered by Shimano don't leave much room for fenders. Is that true? Just how big a tire would you
    have to run before you would crowd out the dual pivots? (Elsewhere in the Reader, Grant says that
    centerpulls will clear a 40mm tire or a 38mm tire with fenders; what's the limit with the current
    long-reach dual pivots?) Furthermore, why not long-reach single-pivots, which are still available?

    While I have no doubt that mast centre-pulls will clear a 38mm or 40mm tire and fender, one might
    have one heck of a time getting said tire past the brake pads on some traditional centre-pulls.
    Unless the tire was deflated or possibly V-brake pads were used.

    Surely some of us can remember barely squeezing a fat 27 x 1 1/4" tire past the pads in the good old
    days even with the QR or straddle released.

    In my book the biggest selling points for centre-pull brakes when they were popular were the
    aethetic symmetry and the fact that the village idiot assembling bikes at the local
    hardware/sports/department store could centre the brakes. Prior to that point most people had only
    be exposed to coaster brakes or poorly installed sidepull brakes that were forever rubbing one side
    of the rim.

    In my experience with the exception of rod brakes with leather pads. Any bicycle brake I have tried
    can be set up to stop well in the dry for at least a few stops. Including the stamped steel
    sidepulls that want to rub the one side of the rim ;-)

    IMHO the most important things become the ease of modulation and repeatability.

    Marcus

  20. Quoted message said:

    You'll notice that this ratio is 2:1 and that half the force goes to each side resulting in a
    caliper ratio of 1:1. I wrote an article about that in the 1970's for Bike World.

    This just shows that you can get anything published at all. Such generalizations are clearly
    unwarranted, which is easily seen just by looking at the variation in calipers within one brand such
    as weinmann. The weinmann 750 had more mechanical advantage than the weinmann 610. The earlier 610's
    had less mechanical advantage than the later 610's, by virtue of the shorter upper arms in the
    calipers, and a straddle wire and carrier that was designed to rest higher above the caliper than
    the later straddle carriers.

    The mechanical advantage varies _more_ over the stroke of the centerpull brake, and the ideal brake
    has a high mechanical advantage early in the stroke, and a low mechanical advantage late in the
    stroke. This gets the pad to the rim quickly, then allows you to easily modulate stopping force once
    you touch the rim. This is how centerpulls and cantilevers work, and its why they are easier to
    control and were the most popular brakes in the 1970's.

    sheldonbrown.comcantilever geometry.html

    In my opinion, campy did everyone a disservice by popularizing the lightweight short reach sidepull
    caliper, and it has taken almost a generation to twist the centerpull caliper over to the side of
    the brake (e.g. dual pivot) and produce a brake with almost the same modulation in mechanical
    advantage and therefore to undo the damage that campagnolo had wrought in the 1970's.

    - Don Gillies San Diego, CA

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