A cyclist's story, from hackney mailing list

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
This was sent to [email hidden]

I have a story which may or may not be of interest to you. As you are
no
doubt aware there has been some recent focus on the issue of cycling in
the
capital. Specifically this has looked at issues such as whether or not
cyclist
should be registered and the recent clamping down on cyclist riding on
pavements
etc.

I am a cyclist and I commute 25 miles each day between Hackney and
Wimbledon.
Obviously travelling such a distance through the capitals cycle network
gives
me a unique perspective on the conditions cyclist must endure. Coupled
with
this I often here of the tragic accidents that occur, more recently a
young
woman who was hit by a truck whilst cycling on the Fulham Road.
Unfortunately
she died only weeks before her wedding.

Now to my story. Yesterday morning at around 8:30 am I was cycling
down
the Kennington Park Rd. I approached a junction near the oval just
before
the A23 and A3 split into two. As I approached the junction I observed
a
British Transport Police vehicle stop in the green cycle box reserved
for
cyclist. This made me wonder how, as cyclist, we where expected to
abide
by the laws when even Police vehicles blatantly ignored them. Upon
entering
the cycle box I turned back to face the Police vehicle and stated that
"This
is ridiculous you pull us (cyclist) over for running red lights yet
even
the police can not obey the laws". What precipitated after this was a
completely
disproportionate reaction by the PC driving too the situation at hand.
The
lights turned green and I proceeded to cycle off as I left the box the
Police
officer leant out of his window and shouted something back which I did
not
hear. He then proceeded to drive of at speed towards me. I did not
believe
I had done anything wrong and continued to cycle towards the next
junction.
The Police car then gave chase and at some point turned on the flashing
lights.
At this point I became aware he may be after me! Traffic was extremely
congested,
the police car pulled along side me and said pull over or I will nick
you.
As I said the traffic was extremely congested and my safety as a
cyclist
was becoming threatened. I managed to pull over to the side of the
road.
The police officer seized the handle bars of my bike in an extremely
agitated
manner and asked me what I thought I was doing. I told him that he was
in
a cycle lane and I was pointing this out to him and asked what he
expected
us (cyclist) to do. I also told him about the case I mentioned above of
the
girl being killed by a truck. The officer was not happy with this
response
he then suggested he would arrest me for Public Disorder at this I
laughed
and said you must be joking, I also said arrest me then because I will
take
this to the news papers and hopefully some attention will be drawn to
the
conditions cyclist must face. I was arrested, I was then locked up for
4
hours in Brixton nick and I have been released on bail to appear on
Monday
to be charged. All this and I was only trying to get to work in one
piece.

Whilst handcuffed in the back of the squad car I heard on the radio
that
a 15 year old had been stopped for cycling on the pavement. Where else
can
they cycle for god sake they have not even taken a driving licence
test.
How can they know the laws of the road? Also on the way to Brixton nick
we
went through several junctions. Out of the window of the Van I counted
three
occasions where vehicles had stopped in the cycle box at traffic
lights.
I myself on one occasion was dragged around a corner by a van turning
left
because he was in the box and couldn't see me. I had a lucky escape.

So there you go one cyclist's story I'm sure there are hundreds more.
Ken
Livingston states that its is better on a bike. I wonder if the fiancé
of
the young girl killed on the Fulham Rd would agree. I myself feel it is
time
something was done about the situation. My partner cycles 14 miles a
day,
if anything ever happened to her I could not live with myself for
having
persuaded her that cycling was an option. I therefore feel it is my
obligation
to try and make a difference. >

I hope this is of interest to you.

Regards

Adam Macintosh

Adam Macintosh BA(Hons) Dip Arch.

-------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know where my indentation markers are -

Anyhoo, I've said it before - we need to go on strike.

--
David Lloyd,
The pub is responsible for my opinions.

spindrift said:

This [story] was sent to...

There are two sides to every story. Is any of this one verifiable?

As we all (should) know, it can be perfectly legal for motorists to wait
in "cycle boxs", so without more information, we cannot draw any
conclusions about that either.

--
Matt B

spindrift wrote on 26/10/2006 08:48 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Now to my story. Yesterday morning at around 8:30 am I was cycling
down
the Kennington Park Rd. I approached a junction near the oval just
before
the A23 and A3 split into two. As I approached the junction I observed
a
British Transport Police vehicle stop in the green cycle box reserved
for
cyclist.

But the British Transport Police are for the railways and underground
etc. Their jurisdiction under the Transport Police (Jurisdiction) Act
is restricted to railway premises and the vicinity of such premises.
Outside of that they should request permission from the police except in
exceptional circumstances (para 11 - 14 of Policing Protocol - BTP &
Home Office Forces;
http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/protocol_btp_forces.doc)

If the poster's lawyer is any good he should be able to get them for
wrongful arrest.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:22:05 +0100, Matt B <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

spindrift said:

This [story] was sent to...

There are two sides to every story. Is any of this one verifiable?

As we all (should) know, it can be perfectly legal for motorists to wait
in "cycle boxs", so without more information, we cannot draw any
conclusions about that either.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_022863-01.hcsp

"Where a cycle reservoir has been marked out at traffic signals at a junction,
all vehicles MUST stop at the first stop line reached unless the signal is
green, or the vehicle cannot be safely stopped for an amber signal. Pedal cycles
may use the approach cycle lane to enter the reservoir without crossing a stop
line.

"Motorcycles MUST NOT use the approach cycle lane to enter the reservoir while a
red signal is showing even if the cycle lane is an advisory one rather than a
mandatory one."

Wrong again, Troll.

Marc Brett said:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:22:05 +0100, Matt B <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

spindrift said:

This [story] was sent to...

There are two sides to every story. Is any of this one verifiable?

As we all (should) know, it can be perfectly legal for motorists to wait
in "cycle boxs", so without more information, we cannot draw any
conclusions about that either.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_022863-01.hcsp

"Where a cycle reservoir has been marked out at traffic signals at a junction,
all vehicles MUST stop at the first stop line reached unless the signal is
green, or the vehicle cannot be safely stopped for an amber signal. ..."

Do you see the word "unless" in that sentence? Like I said 'it can be
perfectly legal for motorists to wait in "cycle boxes"'. If the signal
changes /after/ you pass the first line you must stop at the second - in
the box, legally.

Quoted message said:

...
Wrong again, Troll.

Would you like to reconsider that statement?

--
Matt B

Quoted message said:

But the British Transport Police are for the railways and underground
etc. Their jurisdiction under the Transport Police (Jurisdiction) Act is
restricted to railway premises and the vicinity of such premises. Outside
of that they should request permission from the police except in
exceptional circumstances (para 11 - 14 of Policing Protocol - BTP & Home
Office Forces;
http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/protocol_btp_forces.doc)

Then the cyclist was in error for accusing the BTP of being guilty of the
sins of the Metropolitan Police.......

I still have to ask, is it really worth the effort to be confrontational
with the police?

I'm not defending the actions of the police but like another poster
mentioned, the tale is one sided......

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:02:39 +0100, Matt B <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Marc Brett said:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:22:05 +0100, Matt B <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

spindrift wrote:
> This [story] was sent to...
There are two sides to every story. Is any of this one verifiable?

As we all (should) know, it can be perfectly legal for motorists to wait
in "cycle boxs", so without more information, we cannot draw any
conclusions about that either.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_022863-01.hcsp

"Where a cycle reservoir has been marked out at traffic signals at a junction,
all vehicles MUST stop at the first stop line reached unless the signal is
green, or the vehicle cannot be safely stopped for an amber signal. ..."

Do you see the word "unless" in that sentence? Like I said 'it can be
perfectly legal for motorists to wait in "cycle boxes"'. If the signal
changes /after/ you pass the first line you must stop at the second - in
the box, legally.

Quoted message said:

...
Wrong again, Troll.

Would you like to reconsider that statement?

Sure. Troll.

Quoted message said:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_022863-01.hcsp

"Where a cycle reservoir has been marked out at traffic signals at a junction,
all vehicles MUST stop at the first stop line reached unless the signal is
green, or the vehicle cannot be safely stopped for an amber signal. Pedal cycles
may use the approach cycle lane to enter the reservoir without crossing a stop
line.

That's interesting. Does that mean it is illegal for a cyclists to pass
the cars on the right and thus cross over the first stop line?

--
Simon Mason

vernon said:

I still have to ask, is it really worth the effort to be confrontational
with the police?

Generally, yes.

A fool is someone who is unwilling to learn. Many policemen are fools,
and being a fool is no bar to promotion.

Quoted message said:

That's interesting. Does that mean it is illegal for a cyclists to pass
the cars on the right and thus cross over the first stop line?

Yes, I believe so. You have to use the suicide lane on the left. Even
then I believe it is technically illegal for a cyclist to enter the box
when the light is red because of careless wording in the legislation.
I'm sure Tony knows the precise details.

There's also the question of boxes with no feeder lane. There are a few
of these near where I live. There's no room for a suicide lane so they
have simply left it out. I'm sure it's illegal for a cyclist to enter
these on a red light even without the wording problem.

--
Dave...

Marc Brett said:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:02:39 +0100, Matt B <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Marc Brett said:

Wrong again, Troll.

Would you like to reconsider that statement?

Sure. Troll.

So you consider, accurate, on-topic, argument to be trolling. What
about your own recent challenges to points in my posts? They have
exposed, at best, your complete lack of understanding of the issues, or
alternatively, a deliberate smear campaign. Or, perhaps, you are a troll?

--
Matt B

Marc Brett said:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:22:05 +0100, Matt B <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

spindrift said:

This [story] was sent to...

There are two sides to every story. Is any of this one verifiable?

As we all (should) know, it can be perfectly legal for motorists to wait
in "cycle boxs", so without more information, we cannot draw any
conclusions about that either.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_022863-01.hcsp

"Where a cycle reservoir has been marked out at traffic signals at a junction,
all vehicles MUST stop at the first stop line reached unless the signal is
green, or the vehicle cannot be safely stopped for an amber signal. Pedal cycles
may use the approach cycle lane to enter the reservoir without crossing a stop
line.

"Motorcycles MUST NOT use the approach cycle lane to enter the reservoir while a
red signal is showing even if the cycle lane is an advisory one rather than a
mandatory one."

Wrong again, Troll.

Before you call someone on the law at least take the time to check it
yourself.

I think Matt is referring to the case when the lights are green, the
car goes past the first stop line (into the resevoir) and then the
lights go red. Easily possible in slow moving traffic. The car must
then stop before the second stop line meaning it'll be stopped right in
the middle of the cycle resevoir.

The relevant bit of legislation:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm

43. (2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed
in conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those
light signals means -

(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a
pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded
beyond that line; or

(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has
proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in
the cycle lane.

--

So if the light goes red after you've already gone past the first stop
line (and entered the cycle resevoir) then you can move up to the far
stop line.

Now, it's not possible to tell whether this was the case from the
original story. It simply states:

"
As I approached the junction I observed a British Transport Police
vehicle stop in the green cycle box reserved for cyclist.
"

It could easily be the case that the car stopped there because of
traffic up ahead. There is nothing to prove it either way.

-Alex

dkahn400 said:

There's also the question of boxes with no feeder lane. There are a
few of these near where I live. There's no room for a suicide lane so
they have simply left it out. I'm sure it's illegal for a cyclist to
enter these on a red light even without the wording problem.

On the ones I used to encounter without suicide lanes, they had solved this
problem by painting the rearward stop line to within a couple of inches of
the kerb...

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
The elder stoat leads, in all circumstances.

Alex said:

I think Matt is referring to the case when the lights are green, the
car goes past the first stop line (into the resevoir) and then the
lights go red. Easily possible in slow moving traffic. The car must
then stop before the second stop line meaning it'll be stopped right
in the middle of the cycle resevoir.

Ah, but does not green mean "proceed if the way is clear"? Thus one
shouldn't[1] cross into the ASL box until one can be certain of getting out
the other side and over the junction while the lights are still green.
Which also means that box junctions are essentially redundant[2].

1 - cue hollow laughter
2 - cue /more/ hollow laughter

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
The elder stoat leads, in all circumstances.

"vernon" <[email hidden]> writed in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I'm not defending the actions of the police but like another poster
mentioned, the tale is one sided......

Exactly - I hate to agree with the troll, but there is, I suspect, more to
this than meets the eye.
Personally, I would never (hmmm...) remonstrate directly with a police
officer, but wouldn't think twice about dropping a line to HQ (including
photos where appropriate).

dkahn400 wrote on 26/10/2006 13:32 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's interesting. Does that mean it is illegal for a cyclists to pass
the cars on the right and thus cross over the first stop line?

Yes, I believe so. You have to use the suicide lane on the left. Even
then I believe it is technically illegal for a cyclist to enter the box
when the light is red because of careless wording in the legislation.
I'm sure Tony knows the precise details.

Its moot since when did you last see anyone pulled up for crossing the
line and parking in the box? But yes, as written, you need to enter it
from the cycle lane.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

In article <[email hidden]>

Dave Larrington said:

Alex said:

I think Matt is referring to the case when the lights are green, the
car goes past the first stop line (into the resevoir) and then the
lights go red. Easily possible in slow moving traffic. The car must
then stop before the second stop line meaning it'll be stopped right
in the middle of the cycle resevoir.

Ah, but does not green mean "proceed if the way is clear"? Thus one
shouldn't[1] cross into the ASL box until one can be certain of getting out
the other side and over the junction while the lights are still green.

Not over the junction, just over the line (unless it's a box junction,
in which case they can only sit on it if they're waiting to turn right,
they are impeded by oncoming traffic and their exit is clear[1]).
Drivers who stop in the ASL box are as [censored] as people who don't leave
pelican crossings clear when traffic is queuing. As are drivers who
want to turn right at lights but won't go past the line (so they're
stuck there when the lights change) or drivers who go past the line but
don't proceed when the lights have changed and oncoming traffic has
stopped, preferring to sit in the middle of the junction while everyone
else has to drive around them.

[1] This seems to be the Highway Code's equivalent of the offside rule.

Alex said:

Quoted message said:

Wrong again, Troll.

Before you call someone on the law at least take the time to check it
yourself.

Aye. There's also (I believe, and it must be true because I read it
here)
the situation where the local authority has failed to put the relevant
Traffic Orders in place and therefore the first stop line has no legal
validity.

John

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Its moot since when did you last see anyone pulled up for crossing the
line and parking in the box? But yes, as written, you need to enter it
from the cycle lane.

I haven't seen any car drivers pulled up for parking in the box!

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net