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Frank
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"Vincent Patrick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Donga said:

Bleve wrote:
> Donga wrote:
>
>
> > I couldn't comment on African morality myself. I've never been
> > there.

I

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Quoted message said:

> > don't know their religious and cultural background and values. It's
> > a big continent with a lot of diversity and that magnifies my lack
> > of knowledge. I can't assume they have the same moral constructs as
> > me, let alone the rest of Australia. I certainly wouldn't try to
> > force my morality on them. Heck, if their morality says women don't
> > go out of the house to work but men do, hence the men need bikes,
> > well shut the gate, that's their business. I could just join a
> > church and head over there telling them to repent or burn in hell.
> > You seem to have a lot

of

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> > confidence in your morality Vince.
>
> Cultural relativism is a dangerous thing, use it with care.

If you're saying it might end up in excusing ethnic cleansing or
somesuch, I see your point, but the reverse is intolerance of
diversity, with its own dangers.

Yeah, it's a bit strange that some people here are so confident African

men

Quoted message said:

are less moral than themselves.

Cheers,

Vince

'We all try to be tolerant of the intolerant people around us, but we
usually fail.'

In this case it seems that baby steps are what's needed. If the culture is
such that women don't ride bicycles, for whatever reason, it seems silly
to give them one. Surely in a situation where limited resources are to be
distributed it's best to direct those resources where they will be used.
It's better to give bikes that will be used rather than bikes that stand
idle (for whatever reason).

Once people have the ability to survive, the cultural aspects of equality,
etc. can be addressed. First, they got to eat. We take survival as granted
- for many people in the world survival is a luxury. Imagine, then, the
luxury of a bicycle which helps survival.

I have a Filipina friend who, although almost completely westernised,
still refuses to ride a bike. For her there is a deep cultural taboo which
precludes women on bikes. Why would I give her a bike? It seems to me that
would be a awaste of a resource.

In the case of the organisation in question here I think their approach is
fair - give bikes to the people who will use them. I'm sure there are
other organisations involved with inflicting our
ethical/cultural/civilisation on the people. It's hard to convert dead
people...

I don't really want to dip into relativism but nor am I an absolutist. I
don't want to deprive a family of a chance of survival simply because I
believe the organisation working to enable survival is sexist. Perhaps it
is, but the bottom line is that a bike given to a man can (and does)
enable the family to eat. I'm afraid my moral ground is not high enough to
withold aid that helps women, children and men survive based on a
(relatively) sophisticated argument of sexism.

Charity is about giving someone what they need, not what you think they
should have. They need bikes, you think they need a different moral
construct. That can come later...

Me

Yeah, it's unfortunate the OP did not seem too keen on providing bikes to
everyone. Although you suggest the OP's position is a moral high ground,
in my view it's more like a pre-chewed sloppy ideology from last century.
It is unlikely they will listen to your argument, but who knows.

Cheers,

Vince

Theo Bekkers said:

Vincent Patrick said:

The life expectancy of a Namibian man is somewhere under 45 years, so
he is less likely to be in your child-free (DINKy) position.

That doesn't mean there are no older people.

True, in theory. However, in practice there is a much higher proportion of
younger people in Namibia than in Australia.

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Probably quite a bit of sharing and economic interdependency going on
too, and so a bike for the African dad may help the family
economically.

The African dad with a job mostly works away from home, being away for
weeks or even months at a time. If he takes the bike with him, consider
that the average African woman has to cart all the water used in the home
from an average distance of one mile.

Interesting hypothesis - do you have any facts or references to back it up?
Of course it may also be that a bicycle used by the father can do more good
for the family.

Even if bicycles used by men did yield better outcomes for families, I would
not be happy with a bicycle distribution campaign which empowered men by
supplying bikes only to fathers. Why not leave it up to the families
involved to decide the best use?

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I'm happy to think the group distributing the bicycles has done some
research, knows where the need lies, and is supplying that need. Unlike
you and I who are working off conjecture.

It is hardly conjecture and it doesn't take a lot of research to know that
at least some men will make excellent use of a bike. If women (on average)
were more likely to make good use of the bikes, the bikes could still be
distributed based on individual poverty and foreseeable use, rather than
gender.

Quoted message said:

Theo

Cheers and thanks for the discussion.

Vince

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Frank
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"Donga" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Plodder (remove DAKS to reply) wrote:

Nicely put, Plodder.

Donga

thangyewverrmuch 🙂