Bandit catchers

(Ed prochak) said:

Just thought I'd shake things up a bit with a perennial controversy.

The recent issue of runners world has a brief article on bandit catchers at the NYC marathon. Other
marathon organizers are studying their techniques. Now they don't cover the whole couse, only the
finish area (about the last 5miles). The article mentions both "polite" bandits that follow the
catcher's directions to leave the course, and others that are not so polite.

Just goes to show that while bandits may have been tolerated/ignored in the past, that may not
hold true for much longer. You bandits may have to change your ways!

Have fun, but don't bandit!

Ed (PS I could not find the article on-line, so you may have to make the trip to a library to
read it.)

I read that article and it piqued my interest on a rather accepted, or at least what I think
is rather accepted, custom. I'm speaking of the custom of a friend or training partner to
join an individual in the last 3-6 miles on the course for "Moral support". It is quite
common, around here anyway, for a runner to be joined by another runner during these last
miles, particularly on a first attempt or qualifing attempt. How does NYC marathon deal with
these folks? By the article it appeared that they ar eremoved with the rest. Don't get me
wrong, I'm entirely anti-bandit, however I don't look at these runners as bandits as they
are not running the entire race and most are not using any race "Resources" via water, food
etc as they aren't on the course long enough to worry about it.

~Matt

I don't look at these runners as bandits as they are not running the entire race and most are not
using any race "Resources"
___

Disagree. They are using "space" and "sight lines" or participants of the event, it's that
simple. You have no business on the course if you are not a participant in the event, it's really
that simple.

Furthermore there are legal, safety, security, and insurance issues that come into play in having
non-participants on the course. I saw a guys 4 year old break out from the side of a race just priot
to the finish once to join his father for the last 100' feet before he crossed......cute
yes...however the kid almost got trampled by othe runners sprinting in to the finish. Does not
matter if it's an endearing intention or coaching intention...only participants should be on the
course, period.

(Globaldisc) said:

I don't look at these runners as bandits as they are not running the entire race and most are not
using any race "Resources"
___

Disagree. They are using "space" and "sight lines" or participants of the event, it's that simple.

I can almost see this argument in an EXTREMELY crowded race or in the case of an Elite
runner were seconds on a marathon really matter. Granted it is possible that someone may
"interupt" anothers race. But to what extent assuming the person "joining" the race is
carefull. I've seen actual race participants cause more problems with "space" and "sight
lines" by being just plain old stupid.

Quoted message said:

You have no business on the course if you are not a participant in the event, it's really
that simple.

Furthermore there are legal, safety, security, and insurance issues that come into play in having
non-participants on the course.

I can fully understand the Legal and insurance issues here. However stopping someone at mile
26.1 doesn't effect this problem at all. Someone could very easily run from 20-26 and get
off before the bandit stoppers ever saw them. If they were truly worried about legal and
insurance issues I suspect the better option would be to keep them form joing the race, not
stopping them from finishing. Stopping them from finishing will only affect the person that
is truly a "bandit" and is looking for a time. Support runners probably could care a less.

Quoted message said:

I saw a guys 4 year old break out from the side of a race just priot to the finish once to join
his father for the last 100' feet before he crossed......cute yes...however the kid almost got
trampled by othe runners sprinting in to the finish.

My wife completely crushed another competitor that went from a run to a complete stop to tie
his shoe. He was older than 4 too.

Quoted message said:

Does not matter if it's an endearing intention or coaching intention...only participants should be
on the course, period.

For the most part I agree with you. However I'm not really willing to take it to the extreme
point of view. I put "bandits" in a slightly different category than "partial bandits". The
sole purpose of a "bandit" is to be cheap and screw others. "I don't want to pay for the
race". "Partial bandits" Quite to the contrary are running as a support group, have no
intention of running the race and wouldn't be their if the participant wasn't. IMO they rank
closer to volunteers than they do "bandits". I am on the fence on this issue as I see the
potential difficulties of having a plethora of "partial bandits" joing the race at any point
causing problems. It would be cool however if there could be an organized effort by a race
to have a "support group" starting point. You could even turn this into a revenue maker by
charging runners a couple of bucks to join the race at the "Wall". Announcing when the
runner is approaching and safely merging the support runner in with the rest of the crowd.
Just a thought....

~Matt

Why would anyone wearing a polyester jogging costume and [censored] pack be referred to as a bandit? I
prefer less confusing terms like pansy. cupcake, and cream puff.

(Globaldisc) said:

I can almost see this argument in an EXTREMELY crowded race or in the case of an Elite
runner were seconds on a marathon really matter
___

Here's where you're being short-sighted Matt. It's not your place to determine for which
participant where "seconds" matter. "Seconds" keep people from placing and qualifying, etc. and
so forth. It's also not your place to define "crowded" at any point in a race for any runner of
any level.

I am not an elite runner...just a runner that goes 110%. In a 1/2M I was in a month ago..I relied
on my strength (sprinting) to put on a kick and place as high as I could. 100 yards from the
Finish I passed 8 other runners to finish 8 places higher. To do this I had to respect their
positioning on the course in the lane and RIGHT to be where they were and go OUT OF MY WAY veering
here and there weaving past these runners to a degree. Hence after 1/2M 8 runners finished within
7 seconds of me.

I think we are thinking of two differnet things here. Having people dart out in front of
other runners 200 yds before the finish line is not really what I'm speaking of. Matter of
fact the Bandit catcher, that the original post was about would not stop this either. It is
my understanding that the "catchers" are based around the 26 mile mark or so, I'd have to
re-read the article. I agree that having people "dart" into traffic is simply irresponsible.
However again this is not what I'm speaking of. The assumption that any "bandit" will dart
into traffic and cause problems with your race is simply specious. I suspect that actual
participants, non bandits(AKA spectators not paying attention or crossing the street) are
far more of a threat to your race than a non fatigued, aware and alert "support bandit".
These "Support bandits" are well aware of the effects they have on the race and their
participants. In most cases these "support bandits" are far more experianced than the
participant they are running with.

Quoted message said:

My time would have been slower and I might not have been able to pass as many had these runners
also had "support bandits" adjacent to them. The greater point. My strength is sprinting at
finishes and I should not have non-participants affecting me in the event when I'm doing my thing.
Another runner's strength might be Hills for example. A runner who's looking forward to those hills
to play his strength card is entitled to battle those hills free of non-participants obstruction,
even if those non-participants only cost him 1 second in the course of a 1/2M.

First I would be curious as to how these non runners have any more effect than an actual
participant? To me it would just be another factor of the race. Again taking things to
extremes I would suspect that having 2 or 3 support bandits for every runner could cause a
bit of congestion. But I also suspect that the number of "support bandits" are far less than
the amount of people that don't start the race that have payed already. So guessing here the
number of people on the course is probably the same as it would be if everyone ran the race.
But thats just a guess. That all being besides the point. During a race you would never
know, unless you made it a point to find out, whether a person was truly a bandit or not. So
why worry about it? Your time could have been slower due to other runners not paying
attention, being discourteous or plain rude as well as spectators etc. All of these things
effect a race. Ask Lance about spectators.

Quoted message said:

It's simple and plain, cut and dry. "The Field" is the only one entitled to be on a course. No one
is in the position to say how much of a burden or hardship a non-participant on the course affects
another runner on the course at any point of the course. What's minor to you may be major to
another runner.

Plus racing can be hazardous....people do get accidently tripped ya know. How would you like a
non-participant support bandit accidentally tripping you? What if that happend? It's fair game if
another runner accidently does that....but what if you fell accidental victim to a support
bandit? Right, that bandit never should have been on the course and the line is drawn
properly...at NONE ALLOWED.

See Lance reference above. Well frankly I apparently take life a little bit less seriously
than you. I don't make a living off of running and frankly it's not worth the stress to get
[censored] about a 4 year old running in front of me to join Daddy. Honestly If I were to
get tripped by a bandit, assuming this bandit was not simply being a dumbass and darting in
and out as I've already stated as being unacceptable and dangerous, I guess I'd get up dust
myself off and move on.

Quoted message said:

If you're an RD and want to be sued...allow support bandits.....wait till one contributes to an
injury....and get sued. You deserve it...it's an unnecessary risk and unfair to the field.

As I stated earlier I fully understand the risk of the RD and allowing the bandits or
promoting them in anyway. OTOH I'm also aware that the RD is at risk reguardless of steps
taken to elieviate the problem. As I've already pointed out, in a round about way, the RD
of the NYC marathon, by promoting the "bandit catchers", has opened him/herself up to the
potential of being sued because bandits are on the course elsewhere. The question will now
be raised were his/her efforts strong enough to keep the course "bandit free"? Since He/She
has accepted the responsibility for keeping part of the course "bandit" free why not the
entire course. Prior to the initiation of the "catchers" The RD could have very well said
"We don't allow bandits on the course" "but it is not our responsibilty to keep them off"
My actual opinion is that the purpose of the catchers is not a safety issue but a monetary
one. "We'll keep the cheapasses from crossing the finish line or even seing there time..."
I also suspect that teh potential for the "chase" of the "catchers" after the "bandits" has
the potential for far more catastrophic results than if they were simply allowed to cary
on. Talk about loss of time or getting tripped. How about two 6'3" 300 pound dudes chasing
after some 5'8" 130# punk. Howd ya like that crossing your path during your final sprint?
You are correct in stating "It's not your place to determine for which participant where
"seconds" matter". That is why all of this is purely my opinion. However, for me, I get
alot of enjoyment out of the camaraderie involved with these events. There's something
special about seeing a "Support bandit" push a particpant to that qualifing time or seeing
a father with tears in his eyes carring his son across the finish line. Sometimes you're
lucky enough to be able to do an entire race with someone to share the experinace but thats
a rarety. If it means that a friend of mine qualifies for Boston because of a "support
bandit" and I don't because I get tripped by one. I can live with that because to me the
spirt of any endurance sport is far more important than an one individual experinace. Hey,
but thats just my opinion.

~Matt

Full point!

Surf <with strange memories of 'Karate Champ'>

"Miss Anne Thrope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why would anyone wearing a polyester jogging costume and [censored] pack be referred to as a bandit? I
prefer less confusing terms like pansy. cupcake, and cream puff.

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Globaldisc) said:

I can almost see this argument in an EXTREMELY crowded race or in the case of an Elite
runner were seconds on a marathon really matter
___

Here's where you're being short-sighted Matt. It's not your place to determine for which
participant where "seconds" matter. "Seconds" keep people from placing and qualifying, etc. and
so forth. It's also not your place to define "crowded" at any point in a race for any runner of
any level.

A reminder, these catchers work for the NYC Marathon. (about 30,000 participants isn't it? that's
more than some small cities!) And the other marathons looking into this are, I assume, large also
(the article mentioned no names).

But Global's point is a good one. How would you like to miss your cutof time for Boston because some
bandit got in your way. Or maybe worse drafted you for a good part of the course, never willing to
take the lead in order to avoid being spotted.

Quoted message said:

I think we are thinking of two differnet things here. Having people dart out in front of
other runners 200 yds before the finish line is not really what I'm speaking of. Matter of
fact the Bandit catcher, that the original post was about would not stop this either. It is
my understanding that the "catchers" are based around the 26 mile mark or so, I'd have to
re-read the article.

They cover the last five (5) miles.

Quoted message said:

I agree that having people "dart" into traffic is simply irresponsible. However again this
is not what I'm speaking of. The assumption that any "bandit" will dart into traffic and
cause problems with your race is simply specious. I suspect that actual participants, non
bandits(AKA spectators not paying attention or crossing the street) are far more of a threat
to your race than a non fatigued, aware and alert "support bandit". These "Support bandits"
are well aware of the effects they have on the race and their participants. In most cases
these "support bandits" are far more experianced than the participant they are running with.

Okay, Matt. Let's not mix up the cases here.

I think you define a "support bandit" as one that joins the runner near the finish. Then they MUST
be darting into race traffic, and are, according to your comment above, irresponsible.

There is a simple way for they to not be bandits and provide real support for all or part of
the race: register and run the race. If they are well experienced, they can either take it easy
and support the new marathoner the whole way, or they can race to the finish, back track and
hook up to support their friend at the end. (NOTE: the NYC bandit catchers chase off those
WITHOUT race numbers.)

You second example described as: ....actual participants,

Quoted message said:

non bandits(AKA spectators not paying attention or crossing the street) are far more of a threat
to your race than a non fatigued, aware and alert "support bandit"

Well let's see, most races, especially marathons, rope off a stretch near the finish. So even a
spaced-out spectator cannot wander onto the course unaware within the last 100yards or so. There is
also often normal "traffic control" folks, that direct runners to the shoots and direct aimless
spectators back off the course. This is all near the finish (say within a half mile). Now the bandit
catchers extend this control for the last 5miles or so. And they treat aimless spectators that same
as bandits, "get off the course!".

But your comment that a support bandit is less of a threat than actual participants doesn't make
sense. I think you must have had two thoughts that came out in one sentence, losing both along the
way. Threat is the wrong word to begin with. and another body on the course, especially near the
finish just adds to possible confusion for other registered runners. (What? before I turned the
corner, I could swear there was only one runner ahead of me. Now there's three! they must have
really gone out too fast. They must be alternating running with walking breaks. I'll push a little
and try to catch them. --- of course, that runner never does catch them because they are fresh. He
burns out, cramps up and has to be taken off by medics about a mile before the finish. A DNF instead
of his target time because the presense of bandits caused him to misjudge his competition.)

Quoted message said:

First I would be curious as to how these non runners have any more effect than an actual
participant? To me it would just be another factor of the race. Again taking things to
extremes I would suspect that having 2 or 3 support bandits for every runner could cause a
bit of congestion. But I also suspect that the number of "support bandits" are far less than
the amount of people that don't start the race that have payed already.

(likely to vary greatly with weather and other factors, so your suspicion could be far off the mark

Quoted message said:

... So guessing here the number of people on the course is probably the same as it would be if
everyone ran the race. But thats just a guess. That all being besides the point.

right.

Quoted message said:

......... During a race you would never know, unless you made it a point to find out, whether a
person was truly a bandit or not. So why worry about it?

And to find out, a runner would need to pass the bandit and then turn nearly around to look and see
if they have a number or not. If at mile 18 the runner has any competitive spirit left, he/she HAS
to assume it's not a bandit and possibly try to pass. Doing so might force the runner to take a wide
turn, or pick up a final sprint too soon, or having passed the bandit and seeing that, the runner
may get discouraged. There are lots of ways for the bandit to be a problem.

Quoted message said:

Your time could have been slower due to other runners not paying attention, being
discourteous or plain rude as well as spectators etc. All of these things effect a race. Ask
Lance about spectators.

Spectators are a separate issue, similar but separate.

I'm willing to put up with other registered runners. Let's see the hazards they present, last to
first from your list: being "plain rude" -- Is this name calling? or more dramatic like knocking
over the water table after getting they drink? The hazard here seems more to themselves, wasting
strength and breath calling names. being "discourteous" -- assuming this is a little milder that
"plain rude". maybe this is taking the inside of the curve? Well, If I wanted the inside of the
curve enough, I'd pay the energy cost to get it. Otherwise I'd draft and pass them exitting the
curve. This seems like a normal part of racing! "not paying attention" -- sudden stops for loose
shoelaces and such? Or elbowing during a crowded start? This case is a hazard, I'd agree. And it's
exactly why it should not be compounded by having non-participants on the course.

Quoted message said:

Well frankly I apparently take life a little bit less seriously than you. I don't make a
living off of running and frankly it's not worth the stress to get [censored] about a 4 year
old running in front of me to join Daddy. Honestly If I were to get tripped by a bandit,
assuming this bandit was not simply being a dumbass and darting in and out as I've already
stated as being unacceptable and dangerous, I guess I'd get up dust myself off and move on.

1. In these times I question the parenting skills of someone that lets a 4yearold run free in a
crowded area such as the finish area of a merathon.

2. Without ESP, how do you judge whether the one that tripped you is a dumbass bandit or a kindly
support bandit?

Matt, I know you are easy going and open minded. So am I. But I think its easier to avoid the
judgement calls and be strict on this.

Quoted message said:

As I stated earlier I fully understand the risk of the RD and allowing the bandits or
promoting them in anyway. OTOH I'm also aware that the RD is at risk reguardless of steps
taken to elieviate the problem. As I've already pointed out, in a round about way, the RD of
the NYC marathon, by promoting the "bandit catchers", has opened him/herself up to the
potential of being sued because bandits are on the course elsewhere. The question will now
be raised were his/her efforts strong enough to keep the course "bandit free"? Since He/She
has accepted the responsibility for keeping part of the course "bandit" free why not the
entire course. Prior to the initiation of the "catchers" The RD could have very well said
"We don't allow bandits on the course" "but it is not our responsibilty to keep them off"

Now you make a good point here.

Quoted message said:

... My actual opinion is that the purpose of the catchers is not a safety issue but a monetary
one. "We'll keep the cheapasses from crossing the finish line or even seing there time..."

I see this, but I also see the accuracy of the results improving.

Quoted message said:

... I also suspect that teh potential for the "chase" of the "catchers" after the "bandits" has
the potential for far more catastrophic results than if they were simply allowed to cary on. Talk
about loss of time or getting tripped. How about two 6'3" 300 pound dudes chasing after some 5'8"
130# punk. Howd ya like that crossing your path during your final sprint?

The guy pictured in the article did not look like 300pounds. They described making it clear to get
bandits off the course, not really catching them.

Quoted message said:

You are correct in stating "It's not your place to determine for which participant where
"seconds" matter". That is why all of this is purely my opinion. However, for me, I get alot
of enjoyment out of the camaraderie involved with these events. There's something special
about seeing a "Support bandit" push a particpant to that qualifing time or seeing a father
with tears in his eyes carring his son across the finish line. Sometimes you're lucky enough
to be able to do an entire race with someone to share the experinace but thats a rarety. If
it means that a friend of mine qualifies for Boston because of a "support bandit" and I
don't because I get tripped by one. I can live with that because to me the spirt of any
endurance sport is far more important than an one individual experinace. Hey, but thats just
my opinion.

~Matt

Hmm. I started this trying to get at least a few opinions of bandits. I guess their absense from
this thread shows that maybe the Bandit Catchers are having an influence beyond NYC!

My first race, a 5K, I had a friend support me near the end. But he had already run the race and
came back for me (ie, he was a registered, number runner). It wasn't much of an issue for other
runners either way, since I finished that 5K in LAST Place! 8^)

Enjoy the run and don't trip on the bandits! Ed

(Ed prochak) said:

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 20 Oct 2003 21:27:21 GMT, [email hidden] (Globaldisc) wrote:

Quoted message said:

But Global's point is a good one. How would you like to miss your cutof time for Boston because
some bandit got in your way. Or maybe worse drafted you for a good part of the course, never
willing to take the lead in order to avoid being spotted.

As I stated earlier, I would probably be willing to trade my qualifing for a friend that had
a bandit. The odds that at abandit cause such a problem is minimal IMO.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think we are thinking of two differnet things here. Having people dart out in front of
other runners 200 yds before the finish line is not really what I'm speaking of. Matter of
fact the Bandit catcher, that the original post was about would not stop this either. It is
my understanding that the "catchers" are based around the 26 mile mark or so, I'd have to
re-read the article.

They cover the last five (5) miles.

I'll have ot read the article again. I got the impression that they spotted the last five
miles or so but only pull people off at one point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree that having people "dart" into traffic is simply irresponsible. However again this
is not what I'm speaking of. The assumption that any "bandit" will dart into traffic and
cause problems with your race is simply specious. I suspect that actual participants, non
bandits(AKA spectators not paying attention or crossing the street) are far more of a threat
to your race than a non fatigued, aware and alert "support bandit". These "Support bandits"
are well aware of the effects they have on the race and their participants. In most cases
these "support bandits" are far more experianced than the participant they are running with.

Okay, Matt. Let's not mix up the cases here.

I think you define a "support bandit" as one that joins the runner near the finish. Then they MUST
be darting into race traffic, and are, according to your comment above, irresponsible.

Having a responsible runner start jogging at the edge of the race in an open area, get up to
speed and move into traffic to catch up to or merge with the person they want to is far from
"Darting". This is also far from what a 4 year old would do at the finish line.

Quoted message said:

There is a simple way for they to not be bandits and provide real support for all or part of the
race: register and run the race. If they are well experienced, they can either take it easy and
support the new marathoner the whole way, or they can race to the finish, back track and hook up to
support their friend at the end. (NOTE: the NYC bandit catchers chase off those WITHOUT race
numbers.)

So a registered runner, back tracking, possible running the wrong way into traffic, being
tired, fatigued probbly not thinking clearly, runs into the race either form the side of the
road or from teh spectator crowd. In his Race "haze" he cuts off three or four people to
"support" someone. He then runs up to teh finish line with all the other problems you claim
a bandit causes, (see other runners trying to place and pass) then screws up the timing by
crossing the finish line again. messing with not only one or two runners but the whole race.
This is better than a bandit?

Quoted message said:

You second example described as: ....actual participants,

Quoted message said:

non bandits(AKA spectators not paying attention or crossing the street) are far more of a threat
to your race than a non fatigued, aware and alert "support bandit"

Well let's see, most races, especially marathons, rope off a stretch near the finish. So even a
spaced-out spectator cannot wander onto the course unaware within the last 100yards or so. There is
also often normal "traffic control" folks, that direct runners to the shoots and direct aimless
spectators back off the course. This is all near the finish (say within a half mile). Now the
bandit catchers extend this control for the last 5miles or so. And they treat aimless spectators
that same as bandits, "get off the course!".

Aimless spectators have caused accident upon accident throughtout many races. They

Quoted message said:

But your comment that a support bandit is less of a threat than actual participants doesn't
make sense.

To me it does. I know I'm far less aware of who's around me, whats going on at the end of a long run
than I am when I first start. A "support bandit" comming in fresh can pay attention dodge, and avoid
other runners because they have fresh leggs and mind. Perticipants ar fatigued adn generally not
thinking that clearly. They make dumb moves and end up tripping, stopping and causing other issues
far more regularly than someone who is fresh.

Quoted message said:

I think you must have had two thoughts that came out in one sentence, losing both along the way.
Threat is the wrong word to begin with. and another body on the course, especially near the finish
just adds to possible confusion for other registered runners. (What? before I turned the corner, I
could swear there was only one runner ahead of me. Now there's three! they must have really gone
out too fast. They must be alternating running with walking breaks. I'll push a little and try to
catch them. --- of course, that runner never does catch them because they are fresh. He burns out,
cramps up and has to be taken off by medics about a mile before the finish. A DNF instead of his
target time because the presense of bandits caused him to misjudge his competition.)

What? What kind of an argument is this? A runner over extends him/herself because of a
personal misjudgement and now it's the Bandits fault? What if the person up from wasn't a
bandit. Did stop because his shoe lace came undone or broke. He/she fixes it and talks off.
Same result with a registered runner. Sure you can come up with a million possible problems
with having a bandit on the course. My point is that out of those million maybe a couple
coudl only happen with a bandit an dnot during the course of a regular race without bandits.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

First I would be curious as to how these non runners have any more effect than an actual
participant? To me it would just be another factor of the race. Again taking things to
extremes I would suspect that having 2 or 3 support bandits for every runner could cause a
bit of congestion. But I also suspect that the number of "support bandits" are far less than
the amount of people that don't start the race that have payed already.

(likely to vary greatly with weather and other factors, so your suspicion could be far off the mark

Quoted message said:

... So guessing here the number of people on the course is probably the same as it would be
if everyone ran the race. But thats just a guess. That all being besides the point.

right.

Quoted message said:

......... During a race you would never know, unless you made it a point to find out, whether a
person was truly a bandit or not. So why worry about it?

And to find out, a runner would need to pass the bandit and then turn nearly around to look and see
if they have a number or not. If at mile 18 the runner has any competitive spirit left, he/she HAS
to assume it's not a bandit and possibly try to pass. Doing so might force the runner to take a
wide turn, or pick up a final sprint too soon, or having passed the bandit and seeing that, the
runner may get discouraged. There are lots of ways for the bandit to be a problem.

Again runner judgement error. Could happen with or without the bandit. And again why worry
about it? Run your best race. You'll finish in the place you deserve.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your time could have been slower due to other runners not paying attention, being
discourteous or plain rude as well as spectators etc. All of these things effect a race. Ask
Lance about spectators.

Spectators are a separate issue, similar but separate.

I'm willing to put up with other registered runners. Let's see the hazards they present, last to
first from your list: being "plain rude" -- Is this name calling? or more dramatic like knocking
over the water table after getting they drink? The hazard here seems more to themselves, wasting
strength and breath calling names. being "discourteous" -- assuming this is a little milder that
"plain rude". maybe this is taking the inside of the curve? Well, If I wanted the inside of the
curve enough, I'd pay the energy cost to get it. Otherwise I'd draft and pass them exitting the
curve. This seems like a normal part of racing! "not paying attention" -- sudden stops for loose
shoelaces and such? Or elbowing during a crowded start? This case is a hazard, I'd agree. And it's
exactly why it should not be compounded by having non-participants on the course.

The hazards, reguradless of definition or description are such things you pointed out.
Stopping to tie shoe laces, sudden moves in and out of aid stations, vering in order to say
"hi" to someone or shake a spectators hand etc etc. Rude, discourteous or dangerous IMO all
are mor elikely to happen from a participating runner than a "support bandit"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well frankly I apparently take life a little bit less seriously than you. I don't make a
living off of running and frankly it's not worth the stress to get [censored] about a 4 year
old running in front of me to join Daddy. Honestly If I were to get tripped by a bandit,
assuming this bandit was not simply being a dumbass and darting in and out as I've already
stated as being unacceptable and dangerous, I guess I'd get up dust myself off and move on.

1. In these times I question the parenting skills of someone that lets a 4yearold run free in a
crowded area such as the finish area of a merathon.

As do I and IMO this is not acceptable. But it wasn't brought up by me the previos poster
mentioned it in the same sentence as a "bandit". I was just stating that I see the issues as
two different ones.

Quoted message said:

2. Without ESP, how do you judge whether the one that tripped you is a dumbass bandit or a kindly
support bandit?

Frankly much easier than it was for you to tell weather or not the guy is a bandit at all. A
courteus "support bandit" is well aware of other runners. The dumbass runs across the street
not paying attention to anyone but him/herself cutting people off to reach the individual
they are "supporting". Frankly I wouldn't care if it was a bandit or not. I'd be [censored] at a
registered runner that did teh same thing, and they do. If during the race I'm tripped by
someone, what difference does it make if that person was a bandit or not. I guess this is
teh crux of my whole argument. Assuming that these "Bandits" are not darting in and out from
the crowd of spectatators, what difference does it make to have another runner running with
you. This, to me, make s even more sense when looking at a crowd of 30,000 runners whats
30,001 gonna matter?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that teh potential for the "chase" of the "catchers" after the "bandits" has the potential for
far more catastrophic results than if they were simply allowed to cary on. Talk about loss of
time or getting tripped. How about two 6'3" 300 pound dudes chasing after some 5'8" 130# punk.
Howd ya like that crossing your path during your final sprint?

The guy pictured in the article did not look like 300pounds. They described making it clear to get
bandits off the course, not really catching them.

I took a little descriptive freedom here, sorry. My point is I see serious potential danger
of people chasing people around on the course that wouldn't be there without chasers. I even
suspect now some idiots will actually do it jsut to see if they can get by the catchers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You are correct in stating "It's not your place to determine for which participant where
"seconds" matter". That is why all of this is purely my opinion. However, for me, I get alot
of enjoyment out of the camaraderie involved with these events. There's something special
about seeing a "Support bandit" push a particpant to that qualifing time or seeing a father
with tears in his eyes carring his son across the finish line. Sometimes you're lucky enough
to be able to do an entire race with someone to share the experinace but thats a rarety. If
it means that a friend of mine qualifies for Boston because of a "support bandit" and I
don't because I get tripped by one. I can live with that because to me the spirt of any
endurance sport is far more important than an one individual experinace. Hey, but thats just
my opinion.

~Matt

Hmm. I started this trying to get at least a few opinions of bandits. I guess their absense from
this thread shows that maybe the Bandit Catchers are having an influence beyond NYC!

My first race, a 5K, I had a friend support me near the end. But he had already run the race and
came back for me (ie, he was a registered, number runner). It wasn't much of an issue for other
runners either way, since I finished that 5K in LAST Place! 8^)

See above you bad "bandit supporter supporter" I have never had a "support bandit" and do
actually discourage it. However I have several friends that swear the only reason they
qualified for Boston was because of one of those "support bandits" I agree that they can
cause problems. However I also believe, as I believe trolls do here, add character to the
race. As I stated before I think it wodul be a great idea to have an area(s) that was
supported by the race to allow "support bandits" to more safely enter the race.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Enjoy the run and don't trip on the bandits! Ed

[email hidden] (Ed prochak) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Just thought I'd shake things up a bit with a perennial controversy.

The recent issue of runners world has a brief article on bandit catchers at the NYC marathon.
Other marathon organizers are studying their techniques. Now they don't cover the whole couse,
only the finish area (about the last 5miles). The article mentions both "polite" bandits that
follow the catcher's directions to leave the course, and others that are not so polite.

Just goes to show that while bandits may have been tolerated/ignored in the past, that may not
hold true for much longer. You bandits may have to change your ways!

Word to the wise there are also bandit catchers at the Queensborough Bridge. Bandits were never
tolerated in the NYC marathon. I remember being told at the start in 1985 to have your number
visable or you'd be "bounced" before the finish.

I will admit to having run a few races as a bandit but if I'm going to run a marathon I want my name
posted in the results.

Andy

Quoted message said:

Have fun, but don't bandit!

Ed (PS I could not find the article on-line, so you may have to make the trip to a library to
read it.)

[email hidden] (Ed prochak) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is my understanding that the "catchers" are based around the 26 mile mark or so, I'd have to
re-read the article.

They cover the last five (5) miles.

I was wrong. I do not know how I got the 5mile number, but Matt had that fact straight, they only
cover near the finish.

ed

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 21 Oct 2003 12:44:38 -0700, [email hidden] (Ed prochak) wrote:

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But Global's point is a good one. How would you like to miss your cutof time for Boston because
some bandit got in your way. Or maybe worse drafted you for a good part of the course, never
willing to take the lead in order to avoid being spotted.

As I stated earlier, I would probably be willing to trade my qualifing for a friend that had
a bandit. The odds that at abandit cause such a problem is minimal IMO.

Willing to make the same trade for a stranger that had a bandit? That's the more likely
case, isn't it?

A lot of both our arguemtns, as you point out are related to the fact that almost any problem a
bandit can cause, a registered runner can cause. So I snipped a lot of that discussion from here.

Quoted message said:

So a registered runner, back tracking, possible running the wrong way into traffic, being
tired, fatigued probbly not thinking clearly, runs into the race either form the side of the
road or from teh spectator crowd. In his Race "haze" he cuts off three or four people to
"support" someone. He then runs up to teh finish line with all the other problems you claim
a bandit causes, (see other runners trying to place and pass) then screws up the timing by
crossing the finish line again. messing with not only one or two runners but the whole race.
This is better than a bandit?

A little exagerated, but good point. I assumed the registered support runner to more likely be aware
of the hazards than a bandit hopping onto the course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You second example described as: ....actual participants,

Quoted message said:

non bandits(AKA spectators not paying attention or crossing the street) are far more of a
threat to your race than a non fatigued, aware and alert "support bandit"

Well let's see, most races, especially marathons, rope off a stretch near the finish. So even a
spaced-out spectator cannot wander onto the course unaware within the last 100yards or so. There
is also often normal "traffic control" folks, that direct runners to the shoots and direct
aimless spectators back off the course. This is all near the finish (say within a half mile). Now
the bandit catchers extend this control for the last 5miles or so. And they treat aimless
spectators that same as bandits, "get off the course!".

Aimless spectators have caused accident upon accident throughtout many races. They

Missed the rest of your comment here. But the presence of bandits on the course does not help. So
these spectators are irrelevant to the discussion. (my point being that with bandit catchers, they
form additional "crowd control" personel)

Quoted message said:

What? What kind of an argument is this? A runner over extends him/herself because of a
personal misjudgement and now it's the Bandits fault? What if the person up from wasn't a
bandit. Did stop because his shoe lace came undone or broke. He/she fixes it and talks off.
Same result with a registered runner.

Not quite. My point is that looking up, the runner seeing the bandit is fooled into thinking he's
potentially dropped a position in the finishing list. He has to assume any runner in front of him is
registered, but cannot be 100% certain.

Quoted message said:

Sure you can come up with a million possible problems with having a bandit on the course. My
point is that out of those million maybe a couple coudl only happen with a bandit an dnot
during the course of a regular race without bandits.

So let's look at the ones really due ONLY to bandits: unpaid for resources consumed - note that this
includes, but is not limited to, space occupied on the course.

inaccurate race times - this includes both running thru the finish shoot and messing up times, AND
causing reg. runners to adjust speed due to their presense elsewhere on the course.

crowding hazards - with 30,000 runners, it might be easy to 0.5% or 150 bandits to jump in at/near
the start. Given the already crowded conditions, the conditions seem ripe for increasing all the
hazards already there.

Quoted message said:

Again runner judgement error. Could happen with or without the bandit. And again why worry
about it? Run your best race. You'll finish in the place you deserve.

There's really three cases here. Within a certain distance in front of me there can be: case 1. a
registered runner case 2. a bandit runner case 3. no runner

my race plan might call for me to pass any runners I can at that point, or to conserve energy if the
front is clear. So in case 1 and 3 I make the correct judgement. Case 2 in reality is case 3, but I
cannot know that until I've commited myself and passed the bandit (also requiring me to look back
for the race number). I don't call this an error, since it's based on false information. And the
minor hazards related to passing apply here too. (You know them, so I won't repeat.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Without ESP, how do you judge whether the one that tripped you is a dumbass bandit or a kindly
support bandit?

Frankly much easier than it was for you to tell weather or not the guy is a bandit at all. A
courteus "support bandit" is well aware of other runners. The dumbass runs across the street
not paying attention to anyone but him/herself cutting people off to reach the individual
they are "supporting". Frankly I wouldn't care if it was a bandit or not. I'd be [censored] at a
registered runner that did teh same thing, and they do.

Hmm, a registered runner has a race number and a bandit has no race number. This can be objectively
observed by anyone. Now you just got tripped by a person. How they came to the position that tripped
you is unknown (if you saw them move there you would have avoided the trip, wouldn't you?). Now tell
me whether you tripped on a support bandit or a dumbass bandit.

Quoted message said:

If during the race I'm tripped by someone, what difference does it make if that person was a
bandit or not.

None, that's the whole point of getting bandits off the course.

Quoted message said:

... I guess this is teh crux of my whole argument. Assuming that these "Bandits" are not darting
in and out from the crowd of spectatators, what difference does it make to have another runner
running with you. This, to me, make s even more sense when looking at a crowd of 30,000 runners
whats 30,001 gonna matter?

I assume that to make it worthwhile to hire catchers, there are lot more than one or two. Just 0.5%
is already 150 at NYC.

Quoted message said:

I took a little descriptive freedom here, sorry. My point is I see serious potential danger
of people chasing people around on the course that wouldn't be there without chasers.

If there is going to be anyone on the course at that point that is aware and "fresh", it is going to
be the catchers. If they work properly in teams, I'd bet they need to do little dodging and weaving.

Quoted message said:

... I even suspect now some idiots will actually do it jsut to see if they can get by the
catchers.

There seems to be an infinite supply of idiots. 8^)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the finish line. Sometimes you're lucky enough to be able to do an entire race with someone to
share the experinace but thats a rarety. If it means that a friend of mine qualifies for Boston
because of a "support bandit" and I don't because I get tripped by one. I can live with that
because to me the spirt of any endurance sport is far more important than an one individual
experinace. Hey, but thats just my opinion.

~Matt

Hmm. I started this trying to get at least a few opinions of bandits. I guess their absense from
this thread shows that maybe the Bandit Catchers are having an influence beyond NYC!

My first race, a 5K, I had a friend support me near the end. But he had already run the race and
came back for me (ie, he was a registered, number runner). It wasn't much of an issue for other
runners either way, since I finished that 5K in LAST Place! 8^)

See above you bad "bandit supporter supporter" I have never had a "support bandit" and do
actually discourage it.

Matt, read again, He was a registered runner for that race!

Quoted message said:

... However I have several friends that swear the only reason they qualified for Boston was
because of one of those "support bandits" I agree that they can cause problems. However I also
believe, as I believe trolls do here, add character to the race. As I stated before I think it
wodul be a great idea to have an area(s) that was supported by the race to allow "support bandits"
to more safely enter the race.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Enjoy the run and don't trip on the bandits! Ed

I guess my enginnering attitude shows sometimes. Bandits and trolls seem to me to be just noise
interfering with the signal. They are tolerable only in a high signal to noise environment.

Have a good run. ed

(Ed prochak) said:

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 21 Oct 2003 12:44:38 -0700, [email hidden] (Ed prochak) wrote:

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But Global's point is a good one. How would you like to miss your cutof time for Boston because
some bandit got in your way. Or maybe worse drafted you for a good part of the course, never
willing to take the lead in order to avoid being spotted.

As I stated earlier, I would probably be willing to trade my qualifing for a friend that had
a bandit. The odds that at abandit cause such a problem is minimal IMO.

Willing to make the same trade for a stranger that had a bandit? That's the more likely case,
isn't it?

To me the point of whom triped me is irrelavant. What I'm saying here is I'd rather see a
little friendship, spontenatity, support and emotion in a race than to sterilize it. IMO I'd
trade off my qualifing time, assuming I ever get there, if I thought it meant making the
experinace more pleasurable, unique and enjoyable to a larger group of people. It could be
that I'm not as serious about "placing" etc. as other here. Now if I thought it woudl be a
one for one issue, I.E. I get tripped he/she qualifies thats it I suspect not. howeve I
think the odds of getting tripped during a true qualifing effort are slim. Compare that to
the odds of getting tripped by a bandit and they are even slimmer. So my offer was based on
those odds.

<Snipped as no argument>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What? What kind of an argument is this? A runner over extends him/herself because of a
personal misjudgement and now it's the Bandits fault? What if the person up from wasn't a
bandit. Did stop because his shoe lace came undone or broke. He/she fixes it and talks off.
Same result with a registered runner.

Not quite. My point is that looking up, the runner seeing the bandit is fooled into thinking he's
potentially dropped a position in the finishing list. He has to assume any runner in front of him
is registered, but cannot be 100% certain.

Again I'm not sure how this matters? He/she certainly could not have dropped a place as the
runner in front must have always been in front. If the runner makes the descion to try and
catch that/those runners it is the descion of the runner. Whether teh runner in front is a
bandit is irrelevant. OTOH what if the runner is a bandit and teh prescence of the bandit
spurs teh runner behind to a faster time due to him/her trying to catch teh bandit. Is teh
bandit now a hero?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure you can come up with a million possible problems with having a bandit on the course. My
point is that out of those million maybe a couple coudl only happen with a bandit an dnot
during the course of a regular race without bandits.

So let's look at the ones really due ONLY to bandits: unpaid for resources consumed - note that
this includes, but is not limited to, space occupied on the course.

inaccurate race times - this includes both running thru the finish shoot and messing up times, AND
causing reg. runners to adjust speed due to their presense elsewhere on the course.

Unlike your registered runner turning back and running teh last part of the race again a
bandit is highly unlikely to cause a timing error. In teh case of bib numbers teh bandit
doesn't have one to register. Even so a smart and courteous bandit woudl never run into the
chute. In a chip timed event the bandit woudl never register and therefore not exist in the
timing. However your registered turn around guy that came back and run with you would.

Quoted message said:

crowding hazards - with 30,000 runners, it might be easy to 0.5% or 150 bandits to jump in at/near
the start. Given the already crowded conditions, the conditions seem ripe for increasing all the
hazards already there.

Agreed, however as you state these hazards are already there. To what extent badits effect
these hazrds is purely speculation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Again runner judgement error. Could happen with or without the bandit. And again why worry
about it? Run your best race. You'll finish in the place you deserve.

There's really three cases here. Within a certain distance in front of me there can be: case 1. a
registered runner case 2. a bandit runner case 3. no runner

my race plan might call for me to pass any runners I can at that point, or to conserve energy if
the front is clear. So in case 1 and 3 I make the correct judgement. Case 2 in reality is case 3,
but I cannot know that until I've commited myself and passed the bandit (also requiring me to look
back for the race number). I don't call this an error, since it's based on false information. And
the minor hazards related to passing apply here too. (You know them, so I won't repeat.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Without ESP, how do you judge whether the one that tripped you is a dumbass bandit or a
kindly support bandit?

Frankly much easier than it was for you to tell weather or not the guy is a bandit at all. A
courteus "support bandit" is well aware of other runners. The dumbass runs across the street
not paying attention to anyone but him/herself cutting people off to reach the individual
they are "supporting". Frankly I wouldn't care if it was a bandit or not. I'd be [censored] at a
registered runner that did teh same thing, and they do.

Hmm, a registered runner has a race number and a bandit has no race number. This can be objectively
observed by anyone. Now you just got tripped by a person. How they came to the position that
tripped you is unknown (if you saw them move there you would have avoided the trip, wouldn't you?).
Now tell me whether you tripped on a support bandit or a dumbass bandit.

Interesting. I was thinking along the lines of someone "darting" out from the crowd to join
a runner. In this case the trip woudl probably be seen, but unavoidable(Dumbass bandit) I
suspect that a dumbass bandit could come up from behind you and trip you and you woudl not
see it. However I would, because I'm so kind hearted, woudl have to assume it was an
accident and probbaly would assume, since I didn't see the individual, a registered runner
not a bandit at all. Again life is to short to worry about such things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If during the race I'm tripped by someone, what difference does it make if that person was a
bandit or not.

None, that's the whole point of getting bandits off the course.

Quoted message said:

... I guess this is teh crux of my whole argument. Assuming that these "Bandits" are not darting
in and out from the crowd of spectatators, what difference does it make to have another runner
running with you. This, to me, make s even more sense when looking at a crowd of 30,000 runners
whats 30,001 gonna matter?

I assume that to make it worthwhile to hire catchers, there are lot more than one or two. Just 0.5%
is already 150 at NYC.

I agree, and thus the reason the have catchers 150 * 85$ thats almost 13000$ OTOH I'm sure
more than .5% registered for the race and aren't running it. For IM's I thought the average
was around 15-20% attrition rate, thats purely from memory so I'm not sure if thats correct.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I took a little descriptive freedom here, sorry. My point is I see serious potential danger
of people chasing people around on the course that wouldn't be there without chasers.

If there is going to be anyone on the course at that point that is aware and "fresh", it is
going to be the catchers. If they work properly in teams, I'd bet they need to do little dodging
and weaving.

Yes teh catcher fresh, the catchies not. The catchers must follow the hazy headed fatigued
catchies, probably right into a registered runner.

<Snipped>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My first race, a 5K, I had a friend support me near the end. But he had already run the race and
came back for me (ie, he was a registered, number runner). It wasn't much of an issue for other
runners either way, since I finished that 5K in LAST Place! 8^)

See above you bad "bandit supporter supporter" I have never had a "support bandit" and do
actually discourage it.

Matt, read again, He was a registered runner for that race!

See my explanation of why and how I think registered runners turning back are more dangerous
than support bandits that join in for the last portion of the race. Unfortunately I snipped
from thsi one. But here it is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>So a registered runner, back tracking, possible running the wrong way into traffic, being
>>tired, fatigued probbly not thinking clearly, runs into the race either form the side of the
>>road or from teh spectator crowd. In his Race "haze" he cuts off three or four people to
>>"support" someone. He then runs up to teh finish line with all the other problems you claim a
>>bandit causes, (see other runners trying to place and pass) then screws up the timing by
>>crossing the finish line again. messing with not only one or two runners but the whole race.
>>This is better than a bandit? >

... However I have several friends that swear the only reason they qualified for Boston was
because of one of those "support bandits" I agree that they can cause problems. However I also
believe, as I believe trolls do here, add character to the race. As I stated before I think it
wodul be a great idea to have an area(s) that was supported by the race to allow "support
bandits" to more safely enter the race.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Enjoy the run and don't trip on the bandits! Ed

I guess my enginnering attitude shows sometimes. Bandits and trolls seem to me to be just noise
interfering with the signal. They are tolerable only in a high signal to noise environment.

Again I don't support bandits. I just think that things are never as cut and dry as they appear.
I don't think bandits are a good thing, but not a bad thing always either. Like I stated earlier
they can add a bit of "flavor" to a race. Also just like dealing with trolls, I believe the more
attention they get the more they can scream for attention. OTOH not giving enough attention can
cause issues too. Bandits are people too and I guarentee some will react differently than others
to the catchers. Actually I think it might make for an entertaining day to watch just what goes
on at the catcher line.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Have a good run. ed

(Globaldisc) said:

I don't look at these runners as bandits as they are not running the entire race and most are not
using any race "Resources"
___

Disagree. They are using "space" and "sight lines" or participants of the event, it's that
simple. You have no business on the course if you are not a participant in the event, it's really
that simple.

Furthermore there are legal, safety, security, and insurance issues that come into play in having
non-participants on the course. I saw a guys 4 year old break out from the side of a race just
priot to the finish once to join his father for the last 100' feet before he crossed......cute
yes...however the kid almost got trampled by othe runners sprinting in to the finish. Does not
matter if it's an endearing intention or coaching intention...only participants should be on the
course, period.

The appropriate question to ask about "bandits" in any race would be: is the course open to
non-participants? In most larger races it is not, thus the "bandit" could be charged with
trespassing - end of story. In most smaller races, the course remains open. If the race is being
held on a paved road that is open to public (non-participant) vehicular traffic, it will likely be
open to public pedestrian and cyclist traffic as well. The only difference is that the
non-participant traffic is now subject to obeying hand signals from various police and/or volunteers
along the course.

Radioactive Man said:

The appropriate question to ask about "bandits" in any race would be: is the course open to
non-participants?

That's a really good point and was wondering when someone was going to bring this up.

In most larger races it is

Quoted message said:

not, thus the "bandit" could be charged with trespassing - end of story. In most smaller races,
the course remains open.

I think this is true of many (most?) trail races since the permits restrict the number of runners
but allow simultaneous usage of the trail by the general public. Races on trails on private property
(not an issue here) would be able to make it exclusive use.

It definitely gets interesting in duathlons when there are hikers that get on single-track trail in
front of bikers. We've also had finishers circle back to run in with a friend, not to mention early
finishers running the trail in reverse to get back to car (they're careful not to interfere with
people still running). While I've found the extra congestion mildly annoying at the time it happened
and now know to expect it, it's part of the race-day excitement. I actually feel a little sorry for
the hikers who might not have been aware of a 200-person race happening on their favorite trail that
day. The bears take care of any course cutters.

Open-course road races will sometimes have support folks (of individual runners, *not* volunteers)
leapfrogging with runners, which creates traffic that wouldn't normally be on a road - which is a
major issue when it's icy and does slow people down (and I'm slow anyway). But it's perfectly
legitimate on open-course races, which includes most courses in Alaska - including "road" marathons
(certified courses but on paved bike paths so don't have to worry about road closures).

If the race

Quoted message said:

is being held on a paved road that is open to public (non-participant) vehicular traffic, it will
likely be open to public pedestrian and cyclist traffic as well. The only difference is that the
non-participant traffic is now subject to obeying hand signals from various police and/or
volunteers along the course.

Can volunteers actually direct traffic elsewhere? Just curious. Our volunteers are there to make
sure runners see the turns - not to regulate traffic. Police are rarely involved where I am.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

Radioactive Man said:

The appropriate question to ask about "bandits" in any race would be: is the course open to
non-participants?

That's a really good point and was wondering when someone was going to bring this up.

It's actually THE point. While Andrew and others have raised some logistical problems if the race
course is open then like it or not, rude and irresponsible people can join in and raise havoc.

Quoted message said:

I think this is true of many (most?) trail races since the permits restrict the number of runners
but allow simultaneous usage of the trail by the general public.

Amen? Many times we get rude runners during a race thinking they own the trail and give non racing
runners/hikers some uncalled for [censored]. A good RD will warn the runners that they share the trail and
be on their best behavior.

Quoted message said:

Can volunteers actually direct traffic elsewhere? Just curious. Our volunteers are there to make
sure runners see the turns - not to regulate traffic. Police are rarely involved where I am.

Usually a permit is needed for the race and things like traffic control are covered. For difficult
intersections the police may insist they cover the traffic(and you may have to pay for it). For
simple re-routing, cones and people will usually cover it.

If you choose not to get a permit you can leave yourself open to all kinds of $$problems$$.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

maybe they blow up blds for a reason. 25,000 people in a city. were our the bathrooms. bandits are
the ones who don't get qualified. they still pay the entry fees. they should stay. the ones who
takes a taxi talking on there cell phones our the ones who should be banned. butt I said the cell
phone and boss of bosses and there staff should not lift weights,at my gym for 5 years I lifted. 4
was grat last I am.....to my brain meltd of what I am...... butt they do has there ways. I miss the
gym. butt no money no funny......Quarterbacks are mean. I still have not got a pennie No money butt
bils or anything butt my name my whole life..... and they still use it and not give me a cent. zero
zippo nothing nada...... and I still don't lift... might get back into it butt in nature only. sorry
people butt my brain is too say un forgiving...... bandits should be able to run.. and more blds
should fall.....

Say what you want, bandits run more injury free miles than all of us put together.

(More Bulshit) said:

maybe they blow up blds for a reason. 25,000 people in a city. were our the bathrooms. bandits are
the ones who don't get qualified. they still pay the entry fees. they should stay. the ones who
takes a taxi talking on there cell phones our the ones who should be banned. butt I said the cell
phone and boss of bosses and there staff should not lift weights,at my gym for 5 years I lifted. 4
was grat last I am.....to my brain meltd of what I am...... butt they do has there ways. I miss the
gym. butt no money no funny......Quarterbacks are mean. I still have not got a pennie No money butt
bils or anything butt my name my whole life..... and they still use it and not give me a cent. zero
zippo nothing nada...... and I still don't lift... might get back into it butt in nature only.
sorry people butt my brain is too say un forgiving...... bandits should be able to run.. and more
blds should fall.....

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Ed prochak) said:

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 21 Oct 2003 12:44:38 -0700, [email hidden] (Ed prochak) wrote:

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>But Global's point is a good one. How would you like to miss your cutof time for Boston
>because some bandit got in your way. Or maybe worse drafted you for a good part of the course,
>never willing to take the lead in order to avoid being spotted.

As I stated earlier, I would probably be willing to trade my qualifing for a friend that had
a bandit. The odds that at abandit cause such a problem is minimal IMO.

Willing to make the same trade for a stranger that had a bandit? That's the more likely case,
isn't it?

To me the point of whom triped me is irrelavant.

You are the one that specified "a friend".

Quoted message said:

... What I'm saying here is I'd rather see a little friendship, spontenatity, support and emotion
in a race than to sterilize it. IMO I'd trade off my qualifing time, assuming I ever get there,
if I thought it meant making the experinace more pleasurable, unique and enjoyable to a larger
group of people. It could be that I'm not as serious about "placing" etc. as other here. Now if I
thought it woudl be a one for one issue, I.E. I get tripped he/she qualifies thats it I suspect
not. howeve I think the odds of getting tripped during a true qualifing effort are slim. Compare
that to the odds of getting tripped by a bandit and they are even slimmer. So my offer was based
on those odds.

<Snipped as no argument>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What? What kind of an argument is this? A runner over extends him/herself because of a
personal misjudgement and now it's the Bandits fault? What if the person up from wasn't a
bandit. Did stop because his shoe lace came undone or broke. He/she fixes it and talks off.
Same result with a registered runner.

Not quite. My point is that looking up, the runner seeing the bandit is fooled into thinking he's
potentially dropped a position in the finishing list. He has to assume any runner in front of him
is registered, but cannot be 100% certain.

Again I'm not sure how this matters?

IF you are racing an event as part of a team for instance it matters very much! Besides Corporate
Challenge events, that are races that include team awards, team results determined by the finishing
positions of all runneres on that team.

[]

Quoted message said:

OTOH what if the runner is a bandit and teh prescence of the bandit spurs teh runner behind
to a faster time due to him/her trying to catch teh bandit. Is teh bandit now a hero?

No, but for other reasons. []

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So let's look at the ones really due ONLY to bandits: unpaid for resources consumed - note that
this includes, but is not limited to, space occupied on the course.

inaccurate race times - this includes both running thru the finish shoot and messing up times,
AND causing reg. runners to adjust speed due to their presense elsewhere on the course.

Unlike your registered runner turning back and running teh last part of the race again a
bandit is highly unlikely to cause a timing error. In teh case of bib numbers teh bandit
doesn't have one to register. Even so a smart and courteous bandit woudl never run into the
chute. In a chip timed event the bandit woudl never register and therefore not exist in the
timing. However your registered turn around guy that came back and run with you would.

Is NYC chip timed? But in fact if the programmer was halfway decent, he would program for the
possibility, simply by only recording one result per chip ID.

Most races are still NOT chip timed, so bandits in the finish shoot are a real problem. I suspect
that is why NYC has the catchers and why other races are studying their system. People DO complain
about wrong results.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

crowding hazards - with 30,000 runners, it might be easy to 0.5% or 150 bandits to jump in
at/near the start. Given the already crowded conditions, the conditions seem ripe for increasing
all the hazards already there.

Agreed, however as you state these hazards are already there. To what extent badits effect
these hazrds is purely speculation.

Even without speculation, there is bound to be an increase to every hazard related to crowding on
the course. I cannot see any arguement to the contrary. Now you can argue the increase is very very
small, but it is not zero.

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm, a registered runner has a race number and a bandit has no race number. This can be
objectively observed by anyone. Now you just got tripped by a person. How they came to the
position that tripped you is unknown (if you saw them move there you would have avoided the trip,
wouldn't you?). Now tell me whether you tripped on a support bandit or a dumbass bandit.

Interesting. I was thinking along the lines of someone "darting" out from the crowd to join
a runner. In this case the trip woudl probably be seen, but unavoidable(Dumbass bandit) I
suspect that a dumbass bandit could come up from behind you and trip you and you woudl not
see it. However I would, because I'm so kind hearted, woudl have to assume it was an
accident and probbaly would assume, since I didn't see the individual, a registered runner
not a bandit at all. Again life is to short to worry about such things.

But you never did identify the case of the "kindly support bandit" that tripped you. It seems the
cases are more based on your personal perception and/or mood than on any objective judgement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

..... what difference does it make to have another runner running with you. This, to me, make s
even more sense when looking at a crowd of 30,000 runners whats 30,001 gonna matter?

I assume that to make it worthwhile to hire catchers, there are lot more than one or two. Just
0.5% is already 150 at NYC.

I agree, and thus the reason the have catchers 150 * 85$ thats almost 13000$ OTOH I'm sure
more than .5% registered for the race and aren't running it. For IM's I thought the average
was around 15-20% attrition rate, thats purely from memory so I'm not sure if thats correct.

and my half percent figure was purely for discussion purposes. Now let me make sure I
understand your additional comment. And let's change it from a race to a baseball game (or rock
concert, or movie).

So because some percentage of season ticket holders and prepaid ticket holders do not show up for
the game, an equivalent number of folks should be able to walk in, free of change. It that really
the stand you want to take, Matt??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I took a little descriptive freedom here, sorry. My point is I see serious potential danger
of people chasing people around on the course that wouldn't be there without chasers.

If there is going to be anyone on the course at that point that is aware and "fresh", it is going
to be the catchers. If they work properly in teams, I'd bet they need to do little dodging and
weaving.

Yes teh catcher fresh, the catchies not. The catchers must follow the hazy headed fatigued
catchies, probably right into a registered runner.

Reread the article, they lead them off the course. From the description, I expect the bandits would
crash into more spectators than runners due to the presense of catchers.

Quoted message said:

<Snipped>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>My first race, a 5K, I had a friend support me near the end. But he had already run the race
>and came back for me (ie, he was a registered, number runner). It wasn't much of an issue for
>other runners either way, since I finished that 5K in LAST Place! 8^)

See above you bad "bandit supporter supporter" I have never had a "support bandit" and do
actually discourage it.

Matt, read again, He was a registered runner for that race!

See my explanation of why and how I think registered runners turning back are more dangerous
than support bandits that join in for the last portion of the race. Unfortunately I snipped
from thsi one. But here it is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>So a registered runner, back tracking, possible running the wrong way into traffic, being
>>>tired, fatigued probbly not thinking clearly, runs into the race either form the side of the
>>>road or from teh spectator crowd. In his Race "haze" he cuts off three or four people to
>>>"support" someone. He then runs up to teh finish line with all the other problems you claim a
>>>bandit causes, (see other runners trying to place and pass) then screws up the timing by
>>>crossing the finish line again. messing with not only one or two runners but the whole race.
>>>This is better than a bandit?

Well, I ignored the "race haze" you presume because in my case: it was a 5K, and he finished nearly
15minutes ahead of me so he had time to get a brief rest before coming back for me. I would expect
registered runners looping back are much more likely to posess the sensible attributes of curtesy
and awareness, given they begin with the good sense to register for the race.

Good point on the placing arguement though. I guess I can be persuaded to ban loopback runners
along with bandits. Then if someone is going to run support, then they need to do it from the
starting line.

Quoted message said:

Again I don't support bandits. I just think that things are never as cut and dry as they
appear. I don't think bandits are a good thing, but not a bad thing always either. Like I
stated earlier they can add a bit of "flavor" to a race.

I guess my tastes run in a different kitchen 8^)

Quoted message said:

... Also just like dealing with trolls, I believe the more attention they get the more they can
scream for attention. OTOH not giving enough attention can cause issues too.

I've never seen or heard of a bandit scream for attention.

Quoted message said:

Bandits are people too and I guarentee some will react differently than others to the catchers.
Actually I think it might make for an entertaining day to watch just what goes on at the
catcher line.

~Matt

That was the amusing part of the article, where they mentioned the bandits that give excuses.
Sounded like almost the same experiences cops have in issuing speeding tickets.

Well, we tried, but unless there are some today, I haven't seen any comments from bandits.

Thanks Matt.

Later,
Ed