Hutchinson tubelss on cyclingnews

I always await tubless mentions, and viola!

Bill "sic, sic" S.

Oops. Never mind.

Bill "AM blindness" S.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT

The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.

I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
sell anything..great job.

but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT

The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.

I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
sell anything..great job.

but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT

The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.

I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
sell anything..great job.

but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

you have a good point [although you might be surprised about the sales
efforts behind /any/ plane]. but how much experience and knowhow does
it take to filter that? marketing is a fact of life. deal with it.
ask questions. the only kicker is when the sales droids outright lie,
but even then, if you know what you're about, you can filter that too.
the sales droid for my car was a lying [censored], but the car's great!

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
> my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT
>
> The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
> that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
> but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
> eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
> him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.
>
> I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
> Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
> wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
> sell anything..great job.
>
but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

you have a good point [although you might be surprised about the sales
efforts behind /any/ plane].

Oh, no doubt about the effort the airplane makers make selling the
plane to the DoD. But I doubt the marketeers influence the design much
at all.

Quoted message said:

but how much experience and knowhow does
it take to filter that? marketing is a fact of life. deal with it.
ask questions. the only kicker is when the sales droids outright lie,
but even then, if you know what you're about, you can filter that too.

Not to put words in Peter's mouth, but I think he might be tired of
dealing with people who walk into his shop drunk on the latest issue of
BuyCycling, Cyclingnews, etc. I know I am at times.

Quoted message said:

the sales droid for my car was a lying [censored], but the car's great!

Car Sales droids: perennial candidates for Lying [censored] of the Year
awards.

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
<cut>

Quoted message said:

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

The exception seems to be Rigida, who appear somewhat naive in some of
their marketing.

What would you call a deep-section aerodynamic-looking, go-faster black
rim such as my son has - "safety-line" ? Hmm

Or you want to suggest state of the art aerospace technology for your
touring rims, why not call them "Sputnik", so up-to-date don't you
think.

Better still, as an antidote to marketing spin, don't bother with all
the fancy descriptions, just call the rim "big bull" and have done with
it.

No wonder MAVIC have this market cornered with their fancy names and
TLAs platered all over them.

Moreover, Rigida don't bother giving detailed descriptions about their
processes and their supposed benefits, just rather useful dimensions
and specifications that can be hard to come by for some manufacturers.

(I bought a Sputnik rim largely because it was cheap and the right ERD
to directly replace a cracked rim, looks very solid socketed, sturdy
touring rim).

Andrew Webster

Quoted message said:

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

There is probably far more marketing $$$ and muscle put into any one
company's attempt to sell a plane than all the cycling companies combined
since the turn of the century. And not just military aircraft either
(witness the competition for the domestic Supersonic passenger aircraft that
was eventually scuttled). And if you think it doesn't influence design, look
at the F111 fiasco. Trying to make that plane be all-things to all-people (a
marketing person's dream) created a train wreck.

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff. Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT

The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.

I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
sell anything..great job.

but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

There is probably far more marketing $$$ and muscle put into any one
company's attempt to sell a plane than all the cycling companies combined
since the turn of the century. And not just military aircraft either
(witness the competition for the domestic Supersonic passenger aircraft that
was eventually scuttled). And if you think it doesn't influence design, look
at the F111 fiasco. Trying to make that plane be all-things to all-people (a
marketing person's dream) created a train wreck.

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff. Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

Where did you find that? Are you in the market for arms to defend the
Trek Republic?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever
need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types
of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff.
Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

Where did you find that? Are you in the market for arms to defend the
Trek Republic?

C'mon, admit it. Pretty cool link, isn't it?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

There is probably far more marketing $$$ and muscle put into any one
company's attempt to sell a plane than all the cycling companies combined
since the turn of the century. And not just military aircraft either
(witness the competition for the domestic Supersonic passenger aircraft
that
was eventually scuttled). And if you think it doesn't influence design,
look
at the F111 fiasco. Trying to make that plane be all-things to all-people
(a
marketing person's dream) created a train wreck.

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever
need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types
of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff.
Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

Where did you find that? Are you in the market for arms to defend the
Trek Republic?

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew W said:

Ozark Bicycle wrote: <cut>

Quoted message said:

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final
form of the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue
influence of marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams
of specious BS that are a byproduct of that.

The exception seems to be Rigida, who appear somewhat naive in some
of their marketing.

What would you call a deep-section aerodynamic-looking, go-faster
black rim such as my son has - "safety-line" ? Hmm

I'd call that complying with safety laws in Europe which require some
kind of indicator of braking surface wear. I suppose that Europeans are
more likely to wear out their rims by being more likely to actually ride
their bikes.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever
need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types
of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff.
Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

Where did you find that? Are you in the market for arms to defend the
Trek Republic?

C'mon, admit it. Pretty cool link, isn't it?

No doubt 'bout it.

Bill Sornson said:

I always await tubless mentions, and viola!

Bill "sic, sic" S.

I prefer the violin myself.

--
Phil

Phil said:

Bill Sornson said:

I always await tubless mentions, and viola!

Bill "sic, sic" S.

I prefer the violin myself.

Does it make "whoosh" sounds, Skwidster? <eg>

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>> Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
>> my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT
>>
>> The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
>> that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
>> but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
>> eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
>> him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.
>>
>> I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
>> Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
>> wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
>> sell anything..great job.
>>
> but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
> that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
> build yourself.] what's changed?

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

you have a good point [although you might be surprised about the sales
efforts behind /any/ plane].

Oh, no doubt about the effort the airplane makers make selling the
plane to the DoD. But I doubt the marketeers influence the design much
at all.

Quoted message said:

but how much experience and knowhow does
it take to filter that? marketing is a fact of life. deal with it.
ask questions. the only kicker is when the sales droids outright lie,
but even then, if you know what you're about, you can filter that too.

Not to put words in Peter's mouth, but I think he might be tired of
dealing with people who walk into his shop drunk on the latest issue of
BuyCycling, Cyclingnews, etc. I know I am at times.

Quoted message said:

the sales droid for my car was a lying [censored], but the car's great!

Car Sales droids: perennial candidates for Lying [censored] of the Year
awards.

IMO, anyone who listens to a car salesman gets what they deserve. A
purchase as big as a car should have enough background research done
that you know all you need to know about the product berfore you buy.

Joseph

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT

The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.

I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
sell anything..great job.

but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

Aircraft, altho with some really wierd and useless 'things', did their
job better. No marketing, no fluff, no BS. As in any machine like a
bicycle, so much is driven by marketing, so much poppycock but if it
is, all that is lost is somebody's $, get stranded somewhere cuz
something breaks is all. If an A/C breaks, big trouble.

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
> my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT
>
> The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
> that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
> but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
> eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
> him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.
>
> I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
> Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
> wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
> sell anything..great job.
>
but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

you have a good point [although you might be surprised about the sales
efforts behind /any/ plane]. but how much experience and knowhow does
it take to filter that? marketing is a fact of life. deal with it.
ask questions. the only kicker is when the sales droids outright lie,
but even then, if you know what you're about, you can filter that too.
the sales droid for my car was a lying [censored], but the car's great!

My point. After 2 decades of it, I'm tired of it. Tired of 'justifying'
my position when the 'droid' down the street tells somebody how amazing
that piece of carbon on the rear of that aluminum frame is.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

There is probably far more marketing $$$ and muscle put into any one
company's attempt to sell a plane than all the cycling companies combined
since the turn of the century. And not just military aircraft either
(witness the competition for the domestic Supersonic passenger aircraft that
was eventually scuttled). And if you think it doesn't influence design, look
at the F111 fiasco. Trying to make that plane be all-things to all-people (a
marketing person's dream) created a train wreck.

Thank McNamara and his 'whizkids' for that. In the same era the F-4
came to pass and that was a wonderful A/C. It wasn't designed like that
to sell to every country that may have been a customer but a 'do-all'
A/C for all the services, like the F-35 is going to be. Like the F-4
was. Just poor design, technology wasn't 'there' yet.

Quoted message said:

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff. Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

But most of that stuff works.

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Geezzz, another 24 inches of snow yesterday, and over 100 responses to
> my 'OMG, another $1000 wheelset that does what?' thread....BUT
>
> The test sings the praises of these, so I, once more, remind myself
> that I really love to wrench, ya know, work on bicycles, build wheels
> but I really don't like to 'sell'. Ya know, look somebody right in the
> eye and either 'make a promise' about some gadget or another, or tell
> him why the person down the streeet shouldn't have.
>
> I really liked the gig of JB, when he was at Excel, after leaving 'High
> Wheeler'..he sat behind the 'titanium curtain' and just did the
> wrenching, the building. Didn't have to 'take a stand' on anything,
> sell anything..great job.
>
but you've been in a position where you've had to trust the engineers
that built your planes didn't you? [presumably you didn't design and
build yourself.] what's changed?

I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
that are a byproduct of that.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever
need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types
of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff.
Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

Where did you find that? Are you in the market for arms to defend the
Trek Republic?

C'mon, admit it. Pretty cool link, isn't it?

--Mike Jacoubowsky

Quoted message said:

Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Yep, war and killing is a big industry, big money.

Quoted message said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

> I don't think the marketing-types had much input into the final form of
> the F-16. I think that is what Peter objects to: the undue influence of
> marketeers in today's cycling products and the reams of specious BS
> that are a byproduct of that.

There is probably far more marketing $$$ and muscle put into any one
company's attempt to sell a plane than all the cycling companies combined
since the turn of the century. And not just military aircraft either
(witness the competition for the domestic Supersonic passenger aircraft
that
was eventually scuttled). And if you think it doesn't influence design,
look
at the F111 fiasco. Trying to make that plane be all-things to all-people
(a
marketing person's dream) created a train wreck.

If you want to know more about military plane marketing than you ever
need
to know, and see some cool ads from companies *marketing* various types
of
countermeasures, check out this link-
http://www.armada.ch/03-3/complete_03-3.pdf. It's interesting stuff.
Reading
the ads you might think it's BUYCycling for the military.

Where did you find that? Are you in the market for arms to defend the
Trek Republic?

Quoted message said: