intermittent training - where do I go from here?

Paul said:

I have been running off and on again for several months. I started with
baby steps - 1 miles then 1.5 miles then 2 miles, over the period of several
weeks. I have never raced before. I've trained off and on again for the
last 5 months

I have been swimming swim 3 days for a year, am 42 years old, never been an
athlete

The last 7 weeks of running has been like this:

week t-7: 3 miles Tue, 6 miles Sat
week t-6: 3 miles Tue, 7.5 miles Sat
week t-5: 3 miles Tue, 8 miles Sat
week t-4: no run
week t-3: no run
week t-2: 10 miles Sat
week t-1: 3 miles Tue, 6 miles Thur, 6 miles Sat
the past week: no running

Goals: compete in several triathlons this year and a few half marathons.
Goal: stay injury free!

I will start a regular running schedule - Mon , Wed and Sat("bike then
run"😉 - that makes sense for my goals and integrated with my biking and
swimming.

Since I have run some distance (10 miles is longest run so far) but not too
regularly, what is a good distance, or weekly mileage, to start with on my
weekly runs this week?

For example is this too agressive to start this week?
Mon - 6 miles
Wed - 3 miles
Sat - bike then long-slow-distance starting at 10 miles this week.

Or does it makes sense to back off a little since I am in no rush and
rebuild it slowly and surely?

Thanks for your ideas and experience!

You are fat as well as boring.
You're welcome!

Paul said:

I have been running off and on again for several months. I started with
baby steps - 1 miles then 1.5 miles then 2 miles, over the period of several
weeks. I have never raced before. I've trained off and on again for the
last 5 months

I have been swimming swim 3 days for a year, am 42 years old, never been an
athlete

The last 7 weeks of running has been like this:

week t-7: 3 miles Tue, 6 miles Sat
week t-6: 3 miles Tue, 7.5 miles Sat
week t-5: 3 miles Tue, 8 miles Sat
week t-4: no run
week t-3: no run
week t-2: 10 miles Sat
week t-1: 3 miles Tue, 6 miles Thur, 6 miles Sat
the past week: no running

Goals: compete in several triathlons this year and a few half marathons.
Goal: stay injury free!

I will start a regular running schedule - Mon , Wed and Sat("bike then
run"😉 - that makes sense for my goals and integrated with my biking and
swimming.

Since I have run some distance (10 miles is longest run so far) but not too
regularly, what is a good distance, or weekly mileage, to start with on my
weekly runs this week?

For example is this too agressive to start this week?
Mon - 6 miles
Wed - 3 miles
Sat - bike then long-slow-distance starting at 10 miles this week.

Or does it makes sense to back off a little since I am in no rush and
rebuild it slowly and surely?

Thanks for your ideas and experience!

since for the last 7weeks you average about 8miles per week, I suggest
you start there.
Something like
Mon - 3mile
Wed - 3miles
Sat - 4-5miles
for the first two weeks. week three, increase the long run by a mile.
and repeat in week four. The group consensus for a conservative rule
is no more than 5% per week increase. I suggest a 10% increase, but
only every other week. Remember, if you haven't been running before on
a regular basis, you body needs to adjust. It is not a question of
muscle fitness or aerobic capacity but skeletal/joint acclaimation.
Swimming and biking don't build the skeletal system like running does.

Gradually spread the increases over the other days also. Later you can
vary the days with a short, fast run one day, a mid distance run and
the LSD run

I think doing a "long run" on one or two days running per week is
asking for trouble. Frequent, consistent running with a keen eye for
nagging pains is the way to avoid injury. That said, the fact that you
can do a 10 mile run is pretty good. I would say to start off with
about 12-15 miles per week, divided in 3 to 6 mile runs for a two
weeks. Since you want to get to a half marathon distance, build on the
long run. Cap the length of the long run at 50% of the weekly total
until the weekly total moves up. This assumes you are getting a good
amount of fitness from your swimming and biking, and that you have some
good biomechanics...most running-only runners will say to cap the long
run at about 30%. Another rule is a variation of the 10% rule. Don't
violate 10% increases week over week AND month over month. So if you
run 12 miles a week for a whole 4.5 week month, the first full week of
the next month you wouldn't want to run more than 13.2 miles, and for
the whole second month you wouldn't want to run more than 59.4 (12mpw x
4.5weeks = 54mpm... plus 10% = 59.4)

It might sound overly conservative, but I've been reading rec.running
long enough to know that the people posting 70+ miles a week started
out with years of gradual building. Building mileage (or speed) is
where most people get hurt. If you don't excercise discipline in
controling your urge to run more or faster, injury will make sure you
slow down. It takes a mix of discipline, patience, and
determination...discipline to avoid injuries, patience and
determination to get through them, and another dose of discipline to
avoid the next one.

Thank to you and Ed for your great replies. I am one that DOES have to
throttle back on my enthusiasm for increasing too quickly and that's hard
for me. but I realize it offers an more injury-proof "path", if there is
such a thing.

Thanks again for the advice!

Paul,

I think your goals are great. The only thing I would add to some of the
other comments here is to get yourself a heart rate monitor. This tool
will allow you to build an aerobic base before you start doing any speed
work.

The idea is to make your body more efficient at running. You want to
increase the cappilaries and mitochondria in your muscles. You dont
want high Cortisol levels in your blood. To do this you want to stay
aerobic.

A good rule of thumb using the Maffetone method is do 180-age to find
the top of your aerobic threshold. So, for you that would be 180-42=
138 beats per minute. Slowly bring your heart rate to just below 138.
If you're running up a hill, you may find yourself walking at first.
You will go faster after a month or so at the same HR. The goal is to
NOT go anaerobic during this phase. There are other formulas to
calculate your aerobic range but the idea is to stay around and below
75-80% of your max heart rate.

Another tip not mentioned here is to try to shorten your stride to run
more efficiently and prevent injury. This means that your right foot
should strike the ground (softly, of course) between 85-90 times per
minute.

Enjoy and look forward to your runs! They are YOUR time. I like to
listen to music. Some people dont.

I learned a lot from a book called "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman. Find
it on Amazon etc.

Good luck.
Ira-

Paul said:

I have been running off and on again for several months. I started with
baby steps - 1 miles then 1.5 miles then 2 miles, over the period of several
weeks. I have never raced before. I've trained off and on again for the
last 5 months

I have been swimming swim 3 days for a year, am 42 years old, never been an
athlete

The last 7 weeks of running has been like this:

week t-7: 3 miles Tue, 6 miles Sat
week t-6: 3 miles Tue, 7.5 miles Sat
week t-5: 3 miles Tue, 8 miles Sat
week t-4: no run
week t-3: no run
week t-2: 10 miles Sat
week t-1: 3 miles Tue, 6 miles Thur, 6 miles Sat
the past week: no running

Goals: compete in several triathlons this year and a few half marathons.
Goal: stay injury free!

I will start a regular running schedule - Mon , Wed and Sat("bike then
run"😉 - that makes sense for my goals and integrated with my biking and
swimming.

Since I have run some distance (10 miles is longest run so far) but not too
regularly, what is a good distance, or weekly mileage, to start with on my
weekly runs this week?

For example is this too agressive to start this week?
Mon - 6 miles
Wed - 3 miles
Sat - bike then long-slow-distance starting at 10 miles this week.

Or does it makes sense to back off a little since I am in no rush and
rebuild it slowly and surely?

Thanks for your ideas and experience!

"Ira Hart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul,

I think your goals are great. The only thing I would add to some of the
other comments here is to get yourself a heart rate monitor. This tool
will allow you to build an aerobic base before you start doing any speed
work.

The idea is to make your body more efficient at running. You want to
increase the cappilaries and mitochondria in your muscles. You dont want
high Cortisol levels in your blood. To do this you want to stay aerobic.

A good rule of thumb using the Maffetone method is do 180-age to find the
top of your aerobic threshold. So, for you that would be 180-42= 138
beats per minute. Slowly bring your heart rate to just below 138. If
you're running up a hill, you may find yourself walking at first. You will
go faster after a month or so at the same HR. The goal is to NOT go
anaerobic during this phase. There are other formulas to calculate your
aerobic range but the idea is to stay around and below 75-80% of your max
heart rate.

Another tip not mentioned here is to try to shorten your stride to run
more efficiently and prevent injury. This means that your right foot
should strike the ground (softly, of course) between 85-90 times per
minute.

Enjoy and look forward to your runs! They are YOUR time. I like to
listen to music. Some people dont.

I learned a lot from a book called "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman. Find it
on Amazon etc.

Good luck.
Ira-

Ira:

Thanks for your reply. I have a heart rate monitor and have been using it
for biking and runs. I calculate my max heart rate, based on some elyptical
work I have done, is betwen 190 and 200. Based on those assumptions, I have
worked my base between 155 - 165. I have REALLY go slow to keep it in the
155 range.

I do want to build an aerobic base before starting any speed work or
whatever the next step is. I monitor my H during runs and try to keep it at
a rate where I can talk. I just did a run without my heart rate monitor
and, although it was only 3.5 miles, it was hilly and I found myself
breathing hard most of the run.

I am very keen on what ED said in a previous post as well - I need to let me
joints catch up with my aerobic rate. That makes sense now that I think
about it. Again, I have to throttle my ambition back a little.

Thanks again for your post!

Paul said:

Thanks for your reply. I have a heart rate monitor and have been using it
for biking and runs. I calculate my max heart rate, based on some elyptical
work I have done, is betwen 190 and 200. Based on those assumptions, I have
worked my base between 155 - 165. I have REALLY go slow to keep it in the
155 range.

Hi, I hope my experience can help you.
After a few years of running, my hr was between 160-188 when I ran, it
didn't matter if it was a slow run or a long run.

My doctor told me to walk more and slow it down. I did, it took a lot
of work, and I gained weight which took years to get rid of. This didn't
really help me in the short term, but I probably shouldn't have been up
in that hr for easy running, and that was probably hurting me long term
if not in my body at least in long term planning and having to take
unplanned time off.

What really helped my weekly hr to run embarrassingly slow for 20
minutes to 40 minutes, once a week. This slow run also made me feel a
lot better for the next few days and I was then able to gain a lot of
skill and aerobic capacity that same week and onwards after I started to
train this new way.

Walking up hills until my heart rate could stay down and then over time
running little bits until after a while I could go longer up hills at
the same lower hr, also helped me to improve my over all hr profile.
This helped me continue training regularly over a week and month and
year, for several years now and my consistency has improved dramatically.

Now my average running hr is under 148 unless I am doing speed work or
other drills that increase the heart rate. It now takes a lot of effort
to get my hr higher.

"Triathlete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:saXmh.557037$R63.366725@pd7urf1no...

Quoted message said:

Paul said:

Thanks for your reply. I have a heart rate monitor and have been using
it for biking and runs. I calculate my max heart rate, based on some
elyptical work I have done, is betwen 190 and 200. Based on those
assumptions, I have worked my base between 155 - 165. I have REALLY go
slow to keep it in the 155 range.

Hi, I hope my experience can help you.
After a few years of running, my hr was between 160-188 when I ran, it
didn't matter if it was a slow run or a long run.

My doctor told me to walk more and slow it down. I did, it took a lot of
work, and I gained weight which took years to get rid of. This didn't
really help me in the short term, but I probably shouldn't have been up in
that hr for easy running, and that was probably hurting me long term if
not in my body at least in long term planning and having to take unplanned
time off.

What really helped my weekly hr to run embarrassingly slow for 20 minutes
to 40 minutes, once a week. This slow run also made me feel a lot better
for the next few days and I was then able to gain a lot of skill and
aerobic capacity that same week and onwards after I started to train this
new way.

Walking up hills until my heart rate could stay down and then over time
running little bits until after a while I could go longer up hills at the
same lower hr, also helped me to improve my over all hr profile. This
helped me continue training regularly over a week and month and year, for
several years now and my consistency has improved dramatically.

Now my average running hr is under 148 unless I am doing speed work or
other drills that increase the heart rate. It now takes a lot of effort to
get my hr higher.

Wow - I really don't want to "start over" but I'll check into what you're
telling me. Thanks.

Paul said:

"Triathlete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:saXmh.557037$R63.366725@pd7urf1no...

Quoted message said:

Paul said:

Thanks for your reply. I have a heart rate monitor and have been using
it for biking and runs. I calculate my max heart rate, based on some
elyptical work I have done, is betwen 190 and 200. Based on those
assumptions, I have worked my base between 155 - 165. I have REALLY go
slow to keep it in the 155 range.

Hi, I hope my experience can help you.
After a few years of running, my hr was between 160-188 when I ran, it
didn't matter if it was a slow run or a long run.

My doctor told me to walk more and slow it down. I did, it took a lot of
work, and I gained weight which took years to get rid of. This didn't
really help me in the short term, but I probably shouldn't have been up in
that hr for easy running, and that was probably hurting me long term if
not in my body at least in long term planning and having to take unplanned
time off.

What really helped my weekly hr to run embarrassingly slow for 20 minutes
to 40 minutes, once a week. This slow run also made me feel a lot better
for the next few days and I was then able to gain a lot of skill and
aerobic capacity that same week and onwards after I started to train this
new way.

Walking up hills until my heart rate could stay down and then over time
running little bits until after a while I could go longer up hills at the
same lower hr, also helped me to improve my over all hr profile. This
helped me continue training regularly over a week and month and year, for
several years now and my consistency has improved dramatically.

Now my average running hr is under 148 unless I am doing speed work or
other drills that increase the heart rate. It now takes a lot of effort to
get my hr higher.

Wow - I really don't want to "start over" but I'll check into what you're
telling me. Thanks.

If you skip to doing at least 1 easier run a week, you should be just fine.
Good luck.

"Triathlete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:w32nh.547991$1T2.360717@pd7urf2no...

Quoted message said:

Paul said:

"Triathlete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:saXmh.557037$R63.366725@pd7urf1no...

Quoted message said:

Paul wrote:

> Thanks for your reply. I have a heart rate monitor and have been using
> it for biking and runs. I calculate my max heart rate, based on some
> elyptical work I have done, is betwen 190 and 200. Based on those
> assumptions, I have worked my base between 155 - 165. I have REALLY go
> slow to keep it in the 155 range.
Hi, I hope my experience can help you.
After a few years of running, my hr was between 160-188 when I ran, it
didn't matter if it was a slow run or a long run.

My doctor told me to walk more and slow it down. I did, it took a lot
of work, and I gained weight which took years to get rid of. This didn't
really help me in the short term, but I probably shouldn't have been up
in that hr for easy running, and that was probably hurting me long term
if not in my body at least in long term planning and having to take
unplanned time off.

What really helped my weekly hr to run embarrassingly slow for 20
minutes to 40 minutes, once a week. This slow run also made me feel a
lot better for the next few days and I was then able to gain a lot of
skill and aerobic capacity that same week and onwards after I started to
train this new way.

Walking up hills until my heart rate could stay down and then over time
running little bits until after a while I could go longer up hills at
the same lower hr, also helped me to improve my over all hr profile.
This helped me continue training regularly over a week and month and
year, for several years now and my consistency has improved
dramatically.

Now my average running hr is under 148 unless I am doing speed work or
other drills that increase the heart rate. It now takes a lot of effort
to get my hr higher.

Wow - I really don't want to "start over" but I'll check into what you're
telling me. Thanks.

If you skip to doing at least 1 easier run a week, you should be just
fine.
Good luck.

Given my running three times per week, say 3mile, 4 mile, and 6-7 mile
starting off - which one should be the easy one? I'm not being sarcastic
when I ask, what do you mean by easy? SHould I choose a longer run and go
slower or should I only run 2 mile, 2 mile and then one long slow distance a
week?

Genuine thanks for any info.

Paul,

I think you may want to recalculate your max HR. Maybe you were getting
bad readings from your monitor with the 190-200 measurement?

At age 42, it is probably around 178 (220-42) This is a ballpark value.

I believe that when you are running at 155-165, you are too anaerobic
and running too hard for base endurance building.

If you are really running very slowly at 155bpm, you can definitely
improve your cardio system with base building. In the future, you will
run faster at that same HR and it will map to faster overall running
when you choose to raise your HR and put the pedal to the metal.

If you want to measure max HR running, here's a method from Nate
Llerandi. You can google him to find his background:

"On a day when you're fairly rested, warm up as you would for a track
workout. Then run 800m as
hard as you can. If you don't have access to a track, then run for 3:00.
You should run as hard
as you can while maintaining a steady pace. Immediately jog easy for
200m or roughly 1:00.
Then immediately run another 800m repeat as fast as you can. Really
sprint the final 200m so
you are running flat out to the end. When you cross the finish line,
watch your HR monitor for a
maximum HR registration. It will take several seconds to register, so
keep an eye on your
monitor. If you gave a 100%, honest effort, then you can take this value
and add around 5 beats
to figure a pretty accurate Max HR from which you can work."

Quoted message said:

I have a heart rate monitor and have been using it
for biking and runs. I calculate my max heart rate, based on some elyptical
work I have done, is betwen 190 and 200. Based on those assumptions, I have
worked my base between 155 - 165. I have REALLY go slow to keep it in the
155 range.

I do want to build an aerobic base before starting any speed work or
whatever the next step is. I monitor my H during runs and try to keep it at
a rate where I can talk. I just did a run without my heart rate monitor
and, although it was only 3.5 miles, it was hilly and I found myself
breathing hard most of the run.

Paul said:

"Triathlete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:w32nh.547991$1T2.360717@pd7urf2no...

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you skip to doing at least 1 easier run a week, you should be just
fine.
Good luck.

Given my running three times per week, say 3mile, 4 mile, and 6-7 mile
starting off - which one should be the easy one? I'm not being sarcastic
when I ask, what do you mean by easy? SHould I choose a longer run and go
slower or should I only run 2 mile, 2 mile and then one long slow distance a
week?

Genuine thanks for any info.

For the general question about running slowly: initially you are
building base so all the runs should be relatively slow. At this stage
none of them will be race pace. Conversational pace is the typical
speed for these runs. Later you can add speed and/or hill workouts.

I wouldn't focus too much on heart rate, but I'll let Tri answer your
specific question. He seems to mean one run slower than even
conversation pace?

Ed

Ira - thanks. I'll give that a try. This is pure speculation at this
point, but it that works out to where my Max HR is indeed around 195,
jogging in the 155-165 range is still base building, right?

Paul,

Your max HR may be 195 but that would be the max HR for a 25 year old.
Example chart:
http://www.roxfit.com/programs/fitness/max_heart_rate_train_zone_chart.htm

One of the unfortunate realities of aging is that our max HR typically
drops by about 1 beat per year.

So, in answer to your question yes, if your measured max HR running (at
42 years old) is 195, your max aerobic threshold is probably in that
range... And you are aging VERY well.. ;-)

Also, I think the concept of conversational pace works fine when you're
running with a buddy but there's nothing like setting your HRM alarm to
your 80% threshold and having it beep when you need to back off to avoid
going too anaerobic.

This stuff all worked for me anyway. I'm 43. I've been running
marathons, and doing 1/2 IM tris for the past few years. Using the base
building method in the early season (Nov, Dec, Jan) has helped me get
PR's later in the season every year.

Paul said:

Ira - thanks. I'll give that a try. This is pure speculation at this
point, but it that works out to where my Max HR is indeed around 195,
jogging in the 155-165 range is still base building, right?

Ed Prochak said:

Paul said:

"Triathlete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:w32nh.547991$1T2.360717@pd7urf2no...

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you skip to doing at least 1 easier run a week, you should be just
fine.
Good luck.

Given my running three times per week, say 3mile, 4 mile, and 6-7 mile
starting off - which one should be the easy one? I'm not being sarcastic
when I ask, what do you mean by easy? SHould I choose a longer run and go
slower or should I only run 2 mile, 2 mile and then one long slow distance a
week?

Genuine thanks for any info.

For the general question about running slowly: initially you are
building base so all the runs should be relatively slow. At this stage
none of them will be race pace. Conversational pace is the typical
speed for these runs. Later you can add speed and/or hill workouts.

I wouldn't focus too much on heart rate, but I'll let Tri answer your
specific question. He seems to mean one run slower than even
conversation pace?

Hi, thanks for posting this message, as it did not show up for me.

Although some coaches and athletes suggest that a run can never be used
for recovery, I have had success with having recovery runs for the many
other benefits involved.

Specifically yes, I would consider dropping down to conversation running
to be very important, especially during base training.

Yes, I agree that one run should be easier a week, and this is even
easier than the long slow run. I will answer Paul's question more
specifically, below:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

given my running three times per week, say 3mile, 4 mile, and 6-7 mile
starting off - which one should be the easy one? I'm not being

sarcastic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when I ask, what do you mean by easy? SHould I choose a longer run

and go

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

slower or should I only run 2 mile, 2 mile and then one long slow

distance a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

week?

My experience and advice as a triathlete may be much different when
compared to a runners advice and experience. Triathletes have to balance
running, swimming, biking, some stretching and weights into the mix of life.

3 runs a week can be a lot for if you are not used to having consistency
in training week to week and month to month and you are also adding
swimming and perhaps biking.

I agree with one of the other posters regarding distance in that you may
feel that you can run a long time aerobically, but the small bones in
your body and tendons need to be acclimated to running as well. This is
why swimming can help out, and you seem to be doing well with both
running and swimming. The rest is education so that you can continue
doing well in your training and racing.

I do think the longer run should be slow and easy. I think it is more
important to get consistent now *during base* in terms of getting out to
run. For instance, if you run 3 times this week, and have one longer
run, but next week you do not feel like running nor the next week after
that, something is going on mentally, or physically or emotionally that
is holding you back from being consistent.

This could mean that the amount of carbohydrates you are taking in is
not sufficient to alleviate the stress or cortisone released in your
body or to fulfill your muscle fibers need for fuel. Do you eat
something right after you have finished running? Some fruit and some
protein can help you train tomorrow and next week, as can other
carbohydrates and protein. How you refuel after working out is important
to how you perform at a later date.

Maybe your heart rate is too high and you are not getting the
appropriate amount of sleep because of this reason. If you train too
much, your heart rate will go up, or drop. If you find that your hr is a
certain range and today's range is higher or lower, ask yourself why. It
could be that you have trained enough for now, and need a day of active
recovery or complete rest.

Maybe you are not allowing yourself to have enough sleep because you
have never been active before. I find that during base, I need 8 hours
to 9 hours of sleep a night depending on my training.

Psychologically, your body, mind or emotions may be telling you that
you are doing to much and it doesn't want to be involved until you have
recuperated fully.

This is why 1 lower hr run a week and a full recovery week where your hr
is lower and you do only 50 percent of the last weeks training, can help
you out a lot.

These recovery days, and weeks help you to prepare. What you will
experience is a feeling that you can't wait to start training again,
physically, mentally, and emotionally. You want this feeling, because
this feeling that you get from recovery days/weeks will also help you to
stay fresh over the year, and many years so that you don't get burned
out and stop working out.

I used to have a routine where my friends and I would try to get fit. We
would be diligent and work out for 3-5 weeks, and then stop working out
for a month. I noticed a trend, and when I started to read triathlete
books and magazines, I finally understood why. I was trying to diet when
I worked out (ie I ate like a dieter and not like an athlete), and I
didn't sleep enough, and I didn't take regular easy days and easy weeks.

The easy week thing still gets me. I don't like to take a day off and
when I do, I have troubles getting back to training. Like now, I have
had yesterday off, and I should be going for a run, and I will, but I am
mentally putting it off and writing to you. But I know how important
these easy days and weeks are to my future success.

So, what do I suggest for a triathlete who swims and runs at this time
of year?

Stop working on volume right now, work on consistency, low heart rate,
and eating/sleeping right, and getting used to training in your life as
a regular thing.

To help with your higher hr, I would suggest one run a week be even very
very easier in terms of having a lower hr and a shorter distance and
running time involved. It is easier to give a suggested time instead of
distance for these runs, because I do not know the effort that you put
into each run. I would suggest a 20-30 minute very easy run, with very
easy breathing. Distance should not be a factor, hr should be the
factor, and recovery. If this confuses you, contemplate the idea that a
race or race simulation isn't going to provide you with a full recovery day.

If you can run at say 10-20 beats below your average hr, for the entire
run , you are ok (20-40 minutes tops). Don't go until you are tired. Go
only so that you feel that you can go at least double your run time. If
little old ladies pass you while they walk by, don't let your ego get in
the way. If you find your hr increase, slow down, even walk. If your hr
does not go down, walk for a bit for a cool down, and go home. This ego
thrashing will come in handy during your longer triathlons where pacing
will be crucial to finishing.

I was thinking about my advice that I gave to you last night, as I woke
up this morning, and the fact that you didn't want to start over. This
is a a valid response, that I understand greatly. But you may have to
start over if you over train early.

I don't want to fear monger, but some advice given to me was this: Bruce
Lee (or so I believe it was Bruce Lee at least), used to run very fast.
Yet he died of a heart attack. With all of his training he should have
been fit. However, if we only train the muscle that is our heart at a
certain beat per minute or high range of beats per minute, it is not
trained in other ranges. This means that it is untrained and weak in
other hr ranges and can be susceptible to heart attacks.

I now understand the importance of a lower hr. I feel it every day how
much better training feels. Before, I only had one training range, which
was very high. Now I have many training ranges.

I hope that I have answered some questions for you. I am not a
professional, and I don't pretend to be one. I have read a lot about
triathlon training, I have had some great coaches, and I have learned to
adapt. I wasn't very active before I started triathlon training, but I
realize triathlon is a very big part of my life and I want to encourage
you to train the best that you can so that you can enjoy it from the
tips of your toes to the height of your fingers over your head as you
cross that finish line in pure joy for the great aerobic body that you have.

WOW! that's all I can say...

Thank you VERY much for your extended reply. You are gathering I am a
little confused and you are right. It would be easier if I were starting
from having no training background, at least then I would follow a standard
training methodolgy. however, I am asking about where to start in the
middle, or what I perceive to be the middle.

I did a 1.2 mile open water swim last year, run 10 miles several weeks ago,
and biked a little as I said earlier but I am not consistent with anything
except my swimming because I swim a masters group meeting three times/week.
So you are answering, very well I might add, how do I start with more than
beginner aerobic ability but an inconsistent training history for biking and
running. I didn' trealize when I started this thread that it's probably a
lot more complicated than I thought.

What I hear you saying, correct me if I am off-base, is this:
- strive for consistent training at this point in my "athletic career"
- integrate recovery runs and recovery weeks into routine
- have one of my three weekly runs be an easy run starting for now at around
20-30 minutes of very easy-on-the-breathing running
- one of the three weekly runs should be a long and slow one, where I keep
my heart rate in the aerobic range, slowingt to a wlk if I need to in order
to keep the HR in the aerobic range, regardless of my ego and my percieved
aerobic ability
- eat properly for being an athlete - the right mix of carbs/protein/fats in
healthy foods.
- get enough sleep
- realize this is a ong-term lifestyle and I should not be in a hurry to do
it all this year

Does that sound right?

Many thanks again for your extended post!! It's very helpful.

Quoted message said:

My experience and advice as a triathlete may be much different when
compared to a runners advice and experience. Triathletes have to balance
running, swimming, biking, some stretching and weights into the mix of
life.

3 runs a week can be a lot for if you are not used to having consistency
in training week to week and month to month and you are also adding
swimming and perhaps biking.

I agree with one of the other posters regarding distance in that you may
feel that you can run a long time aerobically, but the small bones in your
body and tendons need to be acclimated to running as well. This is why
swimming can help out, and you seem to be doing well with both running and
swimming. The rest is education so that you can continue doing well in
your training and racing.

I do think the longer run should be slow and easy. I think it is more
important to get consistent now *during base* in terms of getting out to
run. For instance, if you run 3 times this week, and have one longer run,
but next week you do not feel like running nor the next week after that,
something is going on mentally, or physically or emotionally that is
holding you back from being consistent.

This could mean that the amount of carbohydrates you are taking in is not
sufficient to alleviate the stress or cortisone released in your body or
to fulfill your muscle fibers need for fuel. Do you eat something right
after you have finished running? Some fruit and some protein can help you
train tomorrow and next week, as can other carbohydrates and protein. How
you refuel after working out is important to how you perform at a later
date.

Maybe your heart rate is too high and you are not getting the appropriate
amount of sleep because of this reason. If you train too much, your heart
rate will go up, or drop. If you find that your hr is a certain range and
today's range is higher or lower, ask yourself why. It could be that you
have trained enough for now, and need a day of active recovery or complete
rest.

Maybe you are not allowing yourself to have enough sleep because you have
never been active before. I find that during base, I need 8 hours to 9
hours of sleep a night depending on my training.

Psychologically, your body, mind or emotions may be telling you that you
are doing to much and it doesn't want to be involved until you have
recuperated fully.

This is why 1 lower hr run a week and a full recovery week where your hr
is lower and you do only 50 percent of the last weeks training, can help
you out a lot.

These recovery days, and weeks help you to prepare. What you will
experience is a feeling that you can't wait to start training again,
physically, mentally, and emotionally. You want this feeling, because this
feeling that you get from recovery days/weeks will also help you to stay
fresh over the year, and many years so that you don't get burned out and
stop working out.

I used to have a routine where my friends and I would try to get fit. We
would be diligent and work out for 3-5 weeks, and then stop working out
for a month. I noticed a trend, and when I started to read triathlete
books and magazines, I finally understood why. I was trying to diet when I
worked out (ie I ate like a dieter and not like an athlete), and I didn't
sleep enough, and I didn't take regular easy days and easy weeks.

The easy week thing still gets me. I don't like to take a day off and when
I do, I have troubles getting back to training. Like now, I have had
yesterday off, and I should be going for a run, and I will, but I am
mentally putting it off and writing to you. But I know how important these
easy days and weeks are to my future success.

So, what do I suggest for a triathlete who swims and runs at this time of
year?

Stop working on volume right now, work on consistency, low heart rate, and
eating/sleeping right, and getting used to training in your life as a
regular thing.

To help with your higher hr, I would suggest one run a week be even very
very easier in terms of having a lower hr and a shorter distance and
running time involved. It is easier to give a suggested time instead of
distance for these runs, because I do not know the effort that you put
into each run. I would suggest a 20-30 minute very easy run, with very
easy breathing. Distance should not be a factor, hr should be the factor,
and recovery. If this confuses you, contemplate the idea that a race or
race simulation isn't going to provide you with a full recovery day.

If you can run at say 10-20 beats below your average hr, for the entire
run , you are ok (20-40 minutes tops). Don't go until you are tired. Go
only so that you feel that you can go at least double your run time. If
little old ladies pass you while they walk by, don't let your ego get in
the way. If you find your hr increase, slow down, even walk. If your hr
does not go down, walk for a bit for a cool down, and go home. This ego
thrashing will come in handy during your longer triathlons where pacing
will be crucial to finishing.

I was thinking about my advice that I gave to you last night, as I woke up
this morning, and the fact that you didn't want to start over. This is a a
valid response, that I understand greatly. But you may have to start over
if you over train early.

I don't want to fear monger, but some advice given to me was this: Bruce
Lee (or so I believe it was Bruce Lee at least), used to run very fast.
Yet he died of a heart attack. With all of his training he should have
been fit. However, if we only train the muscle that is our heart at a
certain beat per minute or high range of beats per minute, it is not
trained in other ranges. This means that it is untrained and weak in other
hr ranges and can be susceptible to heart attacks.

I now understand the importance of a lower hr. I feel it every day how
much better training feels. Before, I only had one training range, which
was very high. Now I have many training ranges.

I hope that I have answered some questions for you. I am not a
professional, and I don't pretend to be one. I have read a lot about
triathlon training, I have had some great coaches, and I have learned to
adapt. I wasn't very active before I started triathlon training, but I
realize triathlon is a very big part of my life and I want to encourage
you to train the best that you can so that you can enjoy it from the tips
of your toes to the height of your fingers over your head as you cross
that finish line in pure joy for the great aerobic body that you have.

"Ira Hart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ijenh.77$y3.26@llnews...

Quoted message said:

Paul,

Your max HR may be 195 but that would be the max HR for a 25 year old.
Example chart:
http://www.roxfit.com/programs/fitness/max_heart_rate_train_zone_chart.htm

One of the unfortunate realities of aging is that our max HR typically
drops by about 1 beat per year.

So, in answer to your question yes, if your measured max HR running (at 42
years old) is 195, your max aerobic threshold is probably in that range...
And you are aging VERY well.. ;-)

Also, I think the concept of conversational pace works fine when you're
running with a buddy but there's nothing like setting your HRM alarm to
your 80% threshold and having it beep when you need to back off to avoid
going too anaerobic.

This stuff all worked for me anyway. I'm 43. I've been running
marathons, and doing 1/2 IM tris for the past few years. Using the base
building method in the early season (Nov, Dec, Jan) has helped me get PR's
later in the season every year.

Paul said:

Ira - thanks. I'll give that a try. This is pure speculation at this
point, but it that works out to where my Max HR is indeed around 195,
jogging in the 155-165 range is still base building, right?

Ira - thanks, I am going to test my Max HR soon and that will be the real
test. Mybe I am inflating it - we will see - thanks for your reply!

Paul said:

WOW! that's all I can say...

Thank you VERY much for your extended reply. You are gathering I am a
little confused and you are right. It would be easier if I were starting
from having no training background, at least then I would follow a standard
training methodolgy. however, I am asking about where to start in the
middle, or what I perceive to be the middle.

Each base period is a new start.

Quoted message said:

I did a 1.2 mile open water swim last year, run 10 miles several weeks ago,
and biked a little as I said earlier but I am not consistent with anything
except my swimming because I swim a masters group meeting three times/week.
So you are answering, very well I might add, how do I start with more than
beginner aerobic ability but an inconsistent training history for biking and
running. I didn' trealize when I started this thread that it's probably a
lot more complicated than I thought.

Gordo, says to keep it simple. http://www.gordoworld.com/

I am currently using Gordo's training plan this year "Going Long" by
Gordo Byrn and Joe Friel.

What may make it easier is that this time of year is considered base
training, at least where I live. My goal AAA race is in Aug/Sept. I have
other races planned, but they are not as important, they are just
stepping stones to finding out about my nutrition, what I need to change
on the bike, or training etc.

What this means to me is that even though I have been doing this for
several years, this time of year is easy, consistent work, getting used
to training *all over again*. Your body, changes each year, or at least
my body does. What nutrition worked for me 2 years ago, has greatly
changed since then.

If you have read any of my other emails over the last few years, you
would see that I believe in periodization. For instance, I prefer to go
long and easy now, work on my endurance, build up my mitochondria, my
ability to burn fat while going long, and work on nutrition, sleep and
enjoying life, work on letting my bum get used to the seat all over
again, etc.

In this I am a beginner every year, I just have that aerobic base that
gets better every year. This is where you and I have something in
common. You have the aerobic base.. not so much on the run because your
hr gets pretty high, but this is the time of year where it should be
low, and you train it to be low. And perhaps your body isn't as used to
being slammed into the pavement so much either. 😄 This may be making
your hr higher. I used to find that when I run in the woods, my hr was
20 beats lower compared to pavement running. So I ran in the woods as
much as possible. This year, I have to run on pavement because my AAA
races are not on soft surfaces.

You may swim more than I do a week. I tend to swim solo, except a few
friends, and in the summer lake swims with packs of friends. I swim
about 1700m x 2 to 3 times a week right now. I take it slow and I work
on Total immersion drills. This is also an ego breaker for me. 😄

Later on, in a few months, I will add workouts that will increase my
heart rate. This change will also mean a different type of energy system
is being utilized and trained.

Oh, also I will work on yoga or pilates and other core strength and
flexibility routines.

Quoted message said:

What I hear you saying, correct me if I am off-base, is this:
- strive for consistent training at this point in my "athletic career"

Yes! For any time in any athletic career.

Quoted message said:

- integrate recovery runs and recovery weeks into routine

Yes!

Quoted message said:

- have one of my three weekly runs be an easy run starting for now at around
20-30 minutes of very easy-on-the-breathing running

Yes, you could do this in the pool. Gordo says that recovery should be
non impact. The Chris Carmichael coaching system utilize running and
biking for recovery and lower heart rate training.

However, what I am specifically trying to advise you is lowering your hr
during running. I think my advice will help you out.

This recovery run hr profile should be LOWER compared to your long slow
run. It is for recovery. Long slow runs are for endurance and training.

Also, I am not getting you to run 20 minutes to 40 minutes because you
are a beginner. The 20-40 minute thing is for any one any time of year.

Quoted message said:

- one of the three weekly runs should be a long and slow one, where I keep
my heart rate in the aerobic range, slowingt to a wlk if I need to in order
to keep the HR in the aerobic range, regardless of my ego and my percieved
aerobic ability

Yes.

Quoted message said:

- eat properly for being an athlete - the right mix of carbs/protein/fats in
healthy foods.
- get enough sleep
- realize this is a ong-term lifestyle and I should not be in a hurry to do
it all this year

Yes

Quoted message said:

Does that sound right?

Yes. I hope that I did not insult your intelligence with all of that
stuff that sounds common sense. It wasn't very common sense to me until
I kept exploring and I still learn new levels of each idea, each year.

Quoted message said:

Many thanks again for your extended post!! It's very helpful.

I hope so, I truly want to see you having a great time. Triathletes are
great people. We tend to like to share our experience and welcome the
new guy in, even if you have a lot of experience.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My experience and advice as a triathlete may be much different when
compared to a runners advice and experience. Triathletes have to balance
running, swimming, biking, some stretching and weights into the mix of
life.

3 runs a week can be a lot for if you are not used to having consistency
in training week to week and month to month and you are also adding
swimming and perhaps biking.

I agree with one of the other posters regarding distance in that you may
feel that you can run a long time aerobically, but the small bones in your
body and tendons need to be acclimated to running as well. This is why
swimming can help out, and you seem to be doing well with both running and
swimming. The rest is education so that you can continue doing well in
your training and racing.

I do think the longer run should be slow and easy. I think it is more
important to get consistent now *during base* in terms of getting out to
run. For instance, if you run 3 times this week, and have one longer run,
but next week you do not feel like running nor the next week after that,
something is going on mentally, or physically or emotionally that is
holding you back from being consistent.

This could mean that the amount of carbohydrates you are taking in is not
sufficient to alleviate the stress or cortisone released in your body or
to fulfill your muscle fibers need for fuel. Do you eat something right
after you have finished running? Some fruit and some protein can help you
train tomorrow and next week, as can other carbohydrates and protein. How
you refuel after working out is important to how you perform at a later
date.

Maybe your heart rate is too high and you are not getting the appropriate
amount of sleep because of this reason. If you train too much, your heart
rate will go up, or drop. If you find that your hr is a certain range and
today's range is higher or lower, ask yourself why. It could be that you
have trained enough for now, and need a day of active recovery or complete
rest.

Maybe you are not allowing yourself to have enough sleep because you have
never been active before. I find that during base, I need 8 hours to 9
hours of sleep a night depending on my training.

Psychologically, your body, mind or emotions may be telling you that you
are doing to much and it doesn't want to be involved until you have
recuperated fully.

This is why 1 lower hr run a week and a full recovery week where your hr
is lower and you do only 50 percent of the last weeks training, can help
you out a lot.

These recovery days, and weeks help you to prepare. What you will
experience is a feeling that you can't wait to start training again,
physically, mentally, and emotionally. You want this feeling, because this
feeling that you get from recovery days/weeks will also help you to stay
fresh over the year, and many years so that you don't get burned out and
stop working out.

I used to have a routine where my friends and I would try to get fit. We
would be diligent and work out for 3-5 weeks, and then stop working out
for a month. I noticed a trend, and when I started to read triathlete
books and magazines, I finally understood why. I was trying to diet when I
worked out (ie I ate like a dieter and not like an athlete), and I didn't
sleep enough, and I didn't take regular easy days and easy weeks.

The easy week thing still gets me. I don't like to take a day off and when
I do, I have troubles getting back to training. Like now, I have had
yesterday off, and I should be going for a run, and I will, but I am
mentally putting it off and writing to you. But I know how important these
easy days and weeks are to my future success.

So, what do I suggest for a triathlete who swims and runs at this time of
year?

Stop working on volume right now, work on consistency, low heart rate, and
eating/sleeping right, and getting used to training in your life as a
regular thing.

To help with your higher hr, I would suggest one run a week be even very
very easier in terms of having a lower hr and a shorter distance and
running time involved. It is easier to give a suggested time instead of
distance for these runs, because I do not know the effort that you put
into each run. I would suggest a 20-30 minute very easy run, with very
easy breathing. Distance should not be a factor, hr should be the factor,
and recovery. If this confuses you, contemplate the idea that a race or
race simulation isn't going to provide you with a full recovery day.

If you can run at say 10-20 beats below your average hr, for the entire
run , you are ok (20-40 minutes tops). Don't go until you are tired. Go
only so that you feel that you can go at least double your run time. If
little old ladies pass you while they walk by, don't let your ego get in
the way. If you find your hr increase, slow down, even walk. If your hr
does not go down, walk for a bit for a cool down, and go home. This ego
thrashing will come in handy during your longer triathlons where pacing
will be crucial to finishing.

I was thinking about my advice that I gave to you last night, as I woke up
this morning, and the fact that you didn't want to start over. This is a a
valid response, that I understand greatly. But you may have to start over
if you over train early.

I don't want to fear monger, but some advice given to me was this: Bruce
Lee (or so I believe it was Bruce Lee at least), used to run very fast.
Yet he died of a heart attack. With all of his training he should have
been fit. However, if we only train the muscle that is our heart at a
certain beat per minute or high range of beats per minute, it is not
trained in other ranges. This means that it is untrained and weak in other
hr ranges and can be susceptible to heart attacks.

I now understand the importance of a lower hr. I feel it every day how
much better training feels. Before, I only had one training range, which
was very high. Now I have many training ranges.

I hope that I have answered some questions for you. I am not a
professional, and I don't pretend to be one. I have read a lot about
triathlon training, I have had some great coaches, and I have learned to
adapt. I wasn't very active before I started triathlon training, but I
realize triathlon is a very big part of my life and I want to encourage
you to train the best that you can so that you can enjoy it from the tips
of your toes to the height of your fingers over your head as you cross
that finish line in pure joy for the great aerobic body that you have.

Triathlete - this has been a real education for me and I sincerely
appreciate it. I just pruchased two tri books so I can continue my
education.

It's been very helpful and Many thanks!