Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring.

Good to see you're back. We were worried about you:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/5804a8ea5cf7e635

Donald Munro said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring.

Good to see you're back. We were worried about you:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/5804a8ea5cf7e635

Don't much like the implications of that post, but I was busy at work
and volunteering at a non-profit for a while. I've been reading most
of the time since, but not posting for the following reasons:

1) Monumentally disinterested in all things to do with drugs in
bicycling racing, unless they get tied to major heroin or coke rings

2) Finding the injustice to people in their early 30s trying to avoid
a normal job low on my injustice meter

3)Having not raced in a serious manner since I was riding a new
Italvega Superspecialle with a 5-block Regina, I don't have anything
to add to the very few racing threads

4) Not having a degree in engineering, not much to say in most of the
other long threads

5)Realized that semi-long responses that really amount to "I agree
with the better answer two posts up" aren't really a great use of
time, mine writing or someone else reading...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Quoted message said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting.

The "sport" setting on most cameras does what it can to get the
highest-possible shutter speed. That means opening up the aperture and
sometimes kicking up the ISO. The idea is to "freeze" a moving object via
high shutter speed. But when panning, you're following the object, and if
the intent is to blur the background, while keeping the cyclist clear, it's
the wrong setting.

You'll still want to run a wide aperture (to help blur the background) for
most panning shots, but for a shutter speed, perhaps something around
1/250th for a normal focal length. If your flash is strong enough, that can
help as well.

A really good place to practice would be at the track, if there's one
nearby.

Quoted message said:

I have a 18-55 and a
55-200 to work with.

The 55-200 is going to be a bit long for most panning shots, unless you're
trying to get just part of a rider. It's also probably a bit slow (not very
wide aperture). If you want to experiment with really wide apertures (to
really blur everything but what's in focus), you might see if there's a
cheap 50mm 1.8 lens available for the Nikon. Canon has one for their cameras
that runs less than $100. Yeah, it's cheap plastic, but the optics are
pretty good.

Quoted message said:

Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
Anyone doing this right now?

Probably more trouble than it's worth. You'd pretty much need to haul a
laptop with you. Might be best just to get emails and send them to them. Or,
better yet, just upload them when you get home to a Picasa page, like this-
http://picasaweb.google.com/ChainReactionBicycles. Then the riders can
download whatever they want.

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
55-200 to work with.

Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
Anyone doing this right now?

The sports setting probably tries to set as fast a shutter speed
as it can. If you're panning to follow the racers and blur the
background, this will work against you. You could try
setting the camera in shutter priority mode and experimenting
to find what speed gives the best results when panning, then
use that. The actual speed to use probably depends on how
close you are to the racers (and the focal length your lens is at).

For upload, you could get two SD cards, and have a laptop with
either an SD slot or a USB SD card reader (inexpensive). Take
SD card out of the camera, (you can still shoot on the second
SD card), copy pics off, look at them on the laptop, copy pics
to USB drive as desired. Using a card reader is generally less
of a PITA than hooking the camera directly to a computer; it
also saves camera battery and leaves the camera free for
shooting. Any old laptop will work for this. I don't know of a
special purpose device, although there might be one.

Ben

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting.

The "sport" setting on most cameras does what it can to get the
highest-possible shutter speed.

My advice: the blurred-background shots look goofy: it's a gimmick. The
best cycling photography freezes the shot.

Dan

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
55-200 to work with.

Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
Anyone doing this right now?

Our local cycling news site does a lot of photos like that
eg http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1139

And they just put them online fast after the race for people to look
at or save.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Don't use those idiot settings (a "Sports" setting).
Learn how your camera works and shoot sports in the Tv (time value, or
shutter speed control) mode.

-Ken

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
55-200 to work with.

Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
Anyone doing this right now?

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

k.papai said:

Don't use those idiot settings (a "Sports" setting).
Learn how your camera works and shoot sports in the Tv (time value, or
shutter speed control) mode.

-Ken

Good to see you posting!

Steve

Quoted message said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
55-200 to work with.

Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
Anyone doing this right now?

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Curtis L. Russell said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
55-200 to work with.

Turn off the image stabilizer function.
Set it to shutter speed priority and use
1/1000th second.

I like the Panasonic Lumix DMW-CAC1PP.
It has all the bells and whistles, it has a bog
standard automatic setting that still uses some user
options, _and_ it has a `Hey, I'm stupid, I only want
to take a picture' setting that uses all factory values
for options you use when handing it to somebody to take
a picture of you and your girlf^W wife.

*****

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Curtis L. Russell said:

Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
Anyone doing this right now?

For this I bought an immense memory card for the
camera, so upload can wait until later. To upload I
plug the camera into the computer and it shows up as a
memory device on the desktop of Mac OS X. Also have an
external power source for the camera when it is
connected to the computer.

--
Michael Press

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting.

The "sport" setting on most cameras does what it can to get the
highest-possible shutter speed.

My advice: the blurred-background shots look goofy: it's a gimmick. The
best cycling photography freezes the shot.

Dan

But there will be times when there really isn't a choice, typically when
there's simply not enough light for a fast-enough shutter speed. In some
cases, you'll need 1/1000th or better to freeze everything, particularly if
you're shooting perpendicular to the action.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

email hidden said:

For upload, you could get two SD cards, and have a laptop with
either an SD slot or a USB SD card reader (inexpensive). Take
SD card out of the camera, (you can still shoot on the second
SD card), copy pics off, look at them on the laptop, copy pics
to USB drive as desired. Using a card reader is generally less
of a PITA than hooking the camera directly to a computer; it
also saves camera battery and leaves the camera free for
shooting. Any old laptop will work for this. I don't know of a
special purpose device, although there might be one.

I have a tablet PC that coincidentally has as the default card slot
(other than USB and PC Cards) the same SD slot as the Nikon. Absent
anything else, I'll haul it around. It has a double battery and should
last the day - and there is the car-based charger in the Prius.
However, having done official's paperwork in bad conditions, I would
prefer a $ 200-300 device, not my primary work tool. Especially if
other people handle it. Hate to have them stumble on the two GBs of
Ann Margret and Annette Funicello fakes (from a site posted by ED, two
levels up and one click over...)

It would seem to be something that would be useful - somewhat
hardened, few moving parts, just enough 'system' to move and show
photos. The displays being sold are almost there, but the best don't
have much memory (can live with that) and appear to copy from but not
to the USB sticks.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:29:08 GMT, Michael Press <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

For this I bought an immense memory card for the
camera, so upload can wait until later. To upload I
plug the camera into the computer and it shows up as a
memory device on the desktop of Mac OS X. Also have an
external power source for the camera when it is
connected to the computer.

The 2 GB SD is probably a day's worth of shots, but I want the option
to move the photos while on-site. There IS a value to taking the
tablet and putting it there - I can lable the directories immediately.
So maybe I'll take the tablet. It will just cut in half the number of
people I'm willing to have handle it.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

The 2 GB SD is probably a day's worth of shots, but I want the option
to move the photos while on-site. There IS a value to taking the
tablet and putting it there - I can lable the directories immediately.
So maybe I'll take the tablet. It will just cut in half the number of
people I'm willing to have handle it.

If you have an IPod you could also use it for temporary storage - I
think Apple do make a camera connector. Bit of an expensive solution if
you don't have a (20 or 40Gb) IPod though.

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]> wrote:

Turn off the image stabilizer function.
Set it to shutter speed priority and use
1/1000th second.

I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.

However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that you're
trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely have
some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.

Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken too
many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half that
speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel or
Canon 30d with good lenses.

--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email

In article
<[email hidden]>,

skuke said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]> wrote:

Turn off the image stabilizer function.
Set it to shutter speed priority and use
1/1000th second.

I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.

However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that you're
trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely have
some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.

Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken too
many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half that
speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel or
Canon 30d with good lenses.

But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. 🙂

Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

skuke said:

Michael Press said:

Turn off the image stabilizer function.
Set it to shutter speed priority and use
1/1000th second.

I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.

However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that you're
trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely have
some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.

Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken too
many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half that
speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel or
Canon 30d with good lenses.

But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. 🙂

Depending on the lens and distance, with a shutter speed at 1/1000, you'll
have a wide open aperature and thus your most shallow depth of field.
That'll give you a soft focus (blurred) background with frozen sharp wheels
(the only thing in the photo moving at a relatively high speed and in the
area of focus). ...so unless you're fairly distant from your subject, you
won't get your liguid Nitrogen look :-p

Quoted message said:

Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.

Yes, shutter speed priority and dump the camera's pre-programmed modes of
operation.

Generally, no image stabilization. I think it gonna matter whether the IS
is built into the lens or the body. Also, IIRC, some of the high end Canons
can utilize IS while panning (without freaking out). Definitely, the entry
level cameras have a problem panning with IS turned on. However, the OP has
a Nikon and I'm not familiar with their system.
--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email

Quoted message said:

Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.

Depends upon the IS system. The "L"-series Canon lenses (and perhaps a
couple of their standard lenses, if I recall correctly) have a two-mode IS,
one being the standard mode, which stabilizes both horizontal & vertical
shake, and the other being just for vertical, so you can use it for panning
without ill effect.

I've used my brother's 70-200 2.8 L IS lens, and get *extraordinary* results
with it. You can hand-hold it at a long focal length at relatively-low
shutter speed. My own lens is a very-capable 70-200 F4 L, without IS. Image
quality is virtually identical, but the lack of IS limits what I can do with
it.

My guess is that many who don't like IS in certain (if not most) conditions
haven't used it on an "L" series glass.

But I definitely agree about not using the camera's sport mode program.
However, when lighting is adequate, I find aperture priority to be my choice
as often as not (so I can better control depth of field).

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

skuke said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]> wrote:

Turn off the image stabilizer function.
Set it to shutter speed priority and use
1/1000th second.

I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.

However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that
you're
trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely
have
some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.

Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken
too
many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half
that
speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel
or
Canon 30d with good lenses.

But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. 🙂

Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.

--
Michael Press

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

I've used my brother's 70-200 2.8 L IS lens, and get *extraordinary* results
with it. You can hand-hold it at a long focal length at relatively-low
shutter speed. My own lens is a very-capable 70-200 F4 L, without IS. Image
quality is virtually identical, but the lack of IS limits what I can do with
it.

....and the fact that you can't open it bigger than F4 :-)

Quoted message said:

However, when lighting is adequate, I find aperture priority to be my choice
as often as not (so I can better control depth of field).

Interesting. I started shooting with the Canon Ftb way back in the early
70s. There was not aperture priority on that camera or the AE1. I just
learned DoF by playing with shutter speeds and allowing the camera to adjust
the aperture. I have a good feel for shutter speeds and what I can
accomplish in regards to DoF. Some of my friends who learned to shoot later
cameras do as you do. They can rattle off F-stop values and have a good
feel for what will happen. I haven't a clue! Well, I have a basic clue,
but not in terms of absolute numbers ...I guess because I never really paid
attention to what the F-stop was at any given shutter or film speed or lens
length and distance.

--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email