Value of a coach when base building?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
OK, the point here isn't to debate the definition of base. Rather, I'm curious to hear what opinions are out there on the value of a coach when in the early stages of building fitness.

I have what I consider near-zero fitness now since I only rode maybe 900 miles since April. I'm aiming to get on the track next season for everything but match sprints [not expecting to win, just to be able to hang in the pack]. I definitely think a coach will be essential as I switch from endurance-oriented work over to speed work sometime around February. But for now, does a coach really matter all that much? Any opinions on the Charmichael CTS group?

Thanks.

I'm not an experienced cyclist but I'm no stranger to physical training and I think some of the same things apply across the board. Whenever you start any new sport I think a coach or trainer can be very beneficial to teach you proper technique so that you don't develop bad habits that may be very difficult to break in the future. They will also help you put together a good training program so that your not wasting any time or effort. That being said my guess would be that the CTS group wouldn't be a good choice for a beginner since it is a virtual coach and they don't physically see your ride. They won't be able to analyze your riding position, pedal stroke, when you use what gears, how and when you shift etc.. If would seem that they would be most beneficial to someone who is experienced with good riding form that wants help analyzing thier data and optimizing thier training. I would be interested to see if some of the experienced riders agree with this or not.

Matt

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
'Any opinions on the Charmichael CTS group?'

I had a bad experience with the CTS Elite Program. I was assigned a coach who loaded me with way too much intensity and volume of training, and over 10 weeks I lost an actual 12% of my time trialling power (my specialist discipline) and was so fatigued that I almost quit the sport. It's taken me 8 weeks and a 2 week holiday without the bike to regain my mental focus.

CTS uses a testing system where they get you to do 2 * 3 miles, and they use the powers from that test to set training levels. Unfortunately my physiology does not conform to their test, and the set power levels were way too high. I pointed this out straight away, but as the protocol works 'for practically everyone' they were reluctant to drop the levels. I had to get them to reevaluate the zones 4 times before they were even achievable (though still too high I think).

I also supplied accurate details of all my training over the last 2 years, yet all they seemed interested in was what was the longest week I'd done in that time. So they dumped me straight into 3 weeks of 17+hr/wk training, despite them knowing that I'd only been doing a maximum of 6hrs/week since March.

I was also disappointed in the specificity of the program. I'd asked them to provide me with training leading up to the National time trial championships, yet all I think they did was take out a couple of sprint work outs and replace them with 'threshold' work. All they did was try and build general fitness, with no real attempt to prepare me for the demands of the event. In the event by the time of the National I was so overtrained that I couldn't even face racing it.

When I decided to quit the program they said that maybe I hadn't provided sufficient feedback. I totally disagree with this - a previous (UK) coach had sent all my feedback to him in to the National Federation to gain his coaching qualification, and they commentated that I had given

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
I had a bad experience with the CTS Elite Program. I was assigned a coach who loaded me with way too much intensity and volume of training, and over 10 weeks I lost an actual 12% of my time trialling power (my specialist discipline) and was so fatigued that I almost quit the sport. It's taken me 8 weeks and a 2 week holiday without the bike to regain my mental focus.

CTS uses a testing system where they get you to do 2 * 3 miles, and they use the powers from that test to set training levels. Unfortunately my physiology does not conform to their test, and the set power levels were way too high. I pointed this out straight away, but as the protocol works 'for practically everyone' they were reluctant to drop the levels. I had to get them to reevaluate the zones 4 times before they were even achievable (though still too high I think).

I also supplied accurate details of all my training over the last 2 years, yet all they seemed interested in was what was the longest week I'd done in that time. So they dumped me straight into 3 weeks of 17+hr/wk training, despite them knowing that I'd only been doing a maximum of 6hrs/week since March.

I was also disappointed in the specificity of the program. I'd asked them to provide me with training leading up to the National time trial championships, yet all I think they did was take out a couple of sprint work outs and replace them with 'threshold' work. All they did was try and build general fitness, with no real attempt to prepare me for the demands of the event. In the event by the time of the National I was so overtrained that I couldn't even face racing it.

When I decided to quit the program they said that maybe I hadn't provided sufficient feedback. I totally disagree with this - a previous (UK) coach had sent all my feedback to him in to the National Federation to gain his coaching qualification, and they commentated that I had given

Why didn't you stay with your UK coach?

(blimey I can go on!).....the best feedback they had seen. I also sent SRM Powercrank files of every training session. Feedback from the coach wasn't so reliable though, and seemed to be dependant on when he got time in his own racing schedule.

In my opinion CTS totally wrecked my form and my desire to ride a bike, and wouldn't accept any responsibility for this, and didn't even try to find out what had gone wrong. Not bad for $180 a month. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

This is just my experience of one coach within the system though -I'd be interested to know what other peoples experiences have been.

m.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
(blimey I can go on!).....the best feedback they had seen. I also sent SRM Powercrank files of every training session. Feedback from the coach wasn't so reliable though, and seemed to be dependant on when he got time in his own racing schedule.

In my opinion CTS totally wrecked my form and my desire to ride a bike, and wouldn't accept any responsibility for this, and didn't even try to find out what had gone wrong. Not bad for $180 a month. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

This is just my experience of one coach within the system though -I'd be interested to know what other peoples experiences have been.

m.

Thats a shame, unfortunately most coaches in the UK work for free or for supplemetary income and sometimes they can't spend as much time coaching as they want too. Its a shame that the professional US system doesn't seem to build on the UK system too much other than making your pockets lighter.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by 2LAP
Why didn't you stay with your UK coach?

I worked with a UK coach for a couple of seasons, and he did me a lot of good. Before I worked with him I was constantly overtrained and often ill. He showed me how to train healthily and effectively, and helped with riding position etc. After two seasons he got a lot busier at work, and I got a lot more technical when I started training with SRM's etc. (which he wasn't very familiar with). After that (last Winter and the start of this season), I set all my own training schedules, just occasionally showing him what I was doing to get an objective opinion.

Last Winter and the early part of this season were my best ever, with plenty of wins and achieving all my objectives. I did however slightly miss-time my peak, and was slightly tired for my main objectives. I also wasn't confident that I was training in the most effective way.

For an experiment I decided that I would try the CTS program. A lot I had read about it seemed to make sense (i.e. developing aerobic power etc.). I felt that this sort of program would be safe from an overtraining point of view, and I felt that with their experience they should be able to help me peak at the right time.

The experiment failed!

What it has done though is given me confidence that what I was doing earlier this year was spot on. I'm going back to training myself now, and I'm motivated and confident for next year. Its gutting that I'm currently 10% down on where I was in June, but I'm sure I can get back okay. It's been a case of trying something else to prove to myself that what I've been doing is right.

I'm surprised that they took you to 17hr/wk after only riding for 6 hr/wk. that's a very large jump. whilst, i don't subscribe to the 10% (increase/week) idea, a 300% increase is huge.

Going to the original point. I feel that it's incredibly important that you have a good chat with a potential coach before signing up. not everyone gets on with everyone, it's important to get on with your coach (and of course for your coach to get on with you).

I expect the riders i coach to give me plenty of feedback, so that i can accurately assess what's going on, how they feel, etc.

it's also important to work out how much time you want to spend with your coach on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. if you want to talk/email/be with your coach several plus times a day it's obviously going to cost more than if you only want to email them once a month.

as regards starting from near zero, a good coach should get you to where you want to be at a faster and safer rate than through the trial and error that riders usually seem to go through.

Ric

I think that the best thing a coach provides, at any time of the year, is an informed but objective opinion. If you're well motivated it is really hard to make the decision to cut back on training, and if you're also tired then your personal judgement can be severely impaired. I think (and definitely for me) the setting of training schedules is secondary to this.

I've been a CTS member for several months now and have had a favorable experience. Sustainable HR, power at threshhold, recovery; all up. The coaching I've had has been very good. Tailoring schedules to races, rescheduleing due to illness, etc. Also very good at tailoring workouts towards improving my weaknesses. I have heard of circumstances like yours, but I think they are rare. I get the impression there are a LOT of coaches at CTS, and I'm sure they're not all "A" players.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
This is just my experience of one coach within the system though -I'd be interested to know what other peoples experiences have been.

Similar! I'm on a lower level programme at $49 per month, but had similar results in the last 4 months. A lot of aerobic work, a lot of very high intensity 1-3minute intervals, and not a lot of LT/TT work besides a few 8minute 'climbing repeats' earlier in the programme.

My peak race was a disaster, lowest power ever for a '25', and it's left me questioning their coaching specificity for TTing. I did well in a hill climb after those high intensity intervals but in the TTs I did my power faded terribly after 5-8minutes, despite reassurances that this training would be ideal and give me more power than previously.

My coach has been helpful and accepted my analysis of the shortcomings of the training leading up to that race. My analysis was too little LT/TT pace work, too little Tempo, and far too much high intensity intervals and sprinting. Some high intensity and sprints are fine, but when they mean you only get 3x8mins at TT pace per week it's a bit ridiculous.

I want to have confidence in my coach, trust what they are telling you to do, otherwise you won't complete the workouts as directed to the best of your ability. But when the coach turns around and says, yeah, maybe you're right, you begin to wonder what you're paying for! Interesting in that my off-season training, since I made various suggestions to my coach, has changed and now includes tempo and TT intervals most weeks to maintain TT ability through winter. They have basically put a plan together based on what I suggested! I could do that myself! It is interesting to see their methodology, but so far what I've achieved with them has just given me more confidence in my self-coaching abilities!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TTer
Similar! I'm on a lower level programme at $49 per month, but had similar results in the last 4 months. A lot of aerobic work, a lot of very high intensity 1-3minute intervals, and not a lot of LT/TT work besides a few 8minute 'climbing repeats' earlier in the programme.

My peak race was a disaster, lowest power ever for a '25', and it's left me questioning their coaching specificity for TTing. I did well in a hill climb after those high intensity intervals but in the TTs I did my power faded terribly after 5-8minutes, despite reassurances that this training would be ideal and give me more power than previously.

My coach has been helpful and accepted my analysis of the shortcomings of the training leading up to that race. My analysis was too little LT/TT pace work, too little Tempo, and far too much high intensity intervals and sprinting. Some high intensity and sprints are fine, but when they mean you only get 3x8mins at TT pace per week it's a bit ridiculous.

I want to have confidence in my coach, trust what they are telling you to do, otherwise you won't complete the workouts as directed to the best of your ability. But when the coach turns around and says, yeah, maybe you're right, you begin to wonder what you're paying for! Interesting in that my off-season training, since I made various suggestions to my coach, has changed and now includes tempo and TT intervals most weeks to maintain TT ability through winter. They have basically put a plan together based on what I suggested! I could do that myself! It is interesting to see their methodology, but so far what I've achieved with them has just given me more confidence in my self-coaching abilities!

I am always arguing the case for high intensity efforts in the program of all endurance riders, however this doesn't go as far to say that TT riders should be sprinting. Seems like the coach had little grasp of what was required in a TT; prescribing you lots of sessions that were unlikely to impact on your performance (sprints to 1 minute efforts) while neglecting those that would help you lots (e.g. VO2 max, TT power/HR and LT power/HR sessions).

If you want to learn about the methodology of coaching so that you can prescribe your own sessions or even those for others why not go on a coaching course BC or ABCC. This is likely to be cheaper in the long term and provide you with the means and process for planning your training (to a better standard than was done before).