Can a 300PT get me up Mt. Diablo <1:00?

From your post it sounds like you're committed to the PT300. Can I ask why you didn't go with a pair of Powertaps for your bike and your wife's instead? That way you could both train, you'd spend about the same cash and you could train with power indoors or out year round. An on bike power meter could also help you pace your target event, especially at the start where many a time trial is lost.

The ability to

Quoted post said:

to be able to stand and really crank, without moving all over like my bike does on the trainer.

isn't really important to your stated goal of riding Diablo in less than an hour. You need to do one thing for what is basically a steady uphill one hour TT, raise your FTP. And you do that with steady efforts that can be done on any decent trainer. If you want to start racing and want to build your neuromuscular power by indoor sprinting or really hit your anaerobic endurance with really hard short efforts that's great, but your Diablo goal is going to be all about FTP.

Personally I'd make a lot of investments before buying an $1800 trainer but if that's what you've decided then more power to you (pun intended). Read Hunter and Coggan's book and read the threads here including the "It's Killing me but..." saga. Pay attention to raising FTP and VO2 max and if your interests go beyond the Diablo climb you should figure out how to raise power for each of your energy production systems.

Don't worry about the speed thing with the PT300, indoor speed is basically irrelevant if you have access to power data. Speed in your living room is pretty meaningless, just concentrate on building power at your typical climbing cadence (as well as above and below) and your Diablo times will drop. And I definitely wouldn't sweat the configuration of the bars. You're training for a hill climb, I doubt you're going to spend much time in the drops climbing Diablo. I can think of one section near Boy Scout Rocks where you'll pick up speed and might want to get aero but that's pretty short.

Back to your original question, "Can a 300PT get me up Diablo in <1:00" well no. That is, no more than a trick bike a good power meter, the slickest wheels or even a coach can. It's a tool, one that may help you in your quest but only well directed training time, sufficient recovery, riding the event at your ideal weight, and a bit of genetic luck can get you up there in less than an hour. Not knowing a thing about your FTP or potential to raise it it's hard to say but there's really only one way to find out...

BTW, Diablo is a teriffic climb. Really nice steady climbing with just a couple of breaks. And the view from the top on a clear day is worth every pedal stroke.

Good luck,
Dave

If you're considering an investment of >$1500 for a trainer, I suggest that you consider one of three options: 300PT, CompuTrainer Pro and Velodyne Classic or Pro. Each option is outstanding, but there are differences.

With the 300PT, you don't have to install your bike to ride. But, with two riders you will spend some time switching the position back and forth. If you use your own bike(s), they are already set up so you only have to install them into the trainer (~2 mins).

The CT Pro uses your own bike(s), so it takes a minute or two to install the bike. One advantage (a big one IMO) is that the CT can be used in ergometer mode. So, you can program a workout and then you just get on your bike and grin and bear it. I think everybody is different but I'd rather define my workout in advance and then just ride it rather than having to work off of a schedule or written plan. Now, it's not very complicated when the workout is simple (e.g., 2x20 @ 100%FTP w/5R @ 50%FTP). But, I sometimes plan very complex workouts for specific courses with power changes as frequently as 30 seconds. It would be a pain to try and manage such workouts without an ergo mode. The CT also has some stuff that makes workouts more fun (graphics and such). I'm not too into that but some people love it.

The Velodyne is a serious, lab quality ergometer. Again, you use your own bike, but the setup is pretty quick. It's probably faster to put a bike in the Velodyne than it is to change the setup of a 300PT. And, it's pretty nice when you ride multiple bikes (e.g., a road bike and a TT bike).

None of these options is cheap, but there is no more efficient way to get a quality workout than on a trainer. BTW, I'm getting a Velodyne Pro.

Dave and RDO thanks for the input!

One of the main goals is getting two bike/trainers out of our new basement, and having something we can both ride, which takes less space. I'm tired of sweating all over my ride, having to change skewers, moving the bikes up and downstairs all winter. The bells and whistles of the Computrainer appealed to the geek side of me, and if it were 'attached' to an indoor cycle, it would've been the one. The PT aspect isn't going to interest my wife much, but interests me greatly.

I've been training using a Polar HR monitor for the last 10 years, and now that power assessment is financially viable, it was the obvious place to turn for that extra bit of physiologic input. I'll be very curious to see where I will test out, and I'm preparing for the worst... 😄

As far as Diablo goes, I've spent a lot of hours on that mountain, and can't wait for one more turn. My title of this thread was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, hoping to get the input of both those familiar with Diablo, and others who use the 300PT. It's a long-term investment not intended for any specific goal, but I will certainly put it through its paces trying to attain the 10.8 mph up the mountain, which according to some preliminary estimates on AnalyticCycling.com will require about 285 watts for 60 minutes. I don't know where I stand, but I do know that sounds a bit ugly. :eek:

The ergometer mode of the CT Pro is a good point, and I have to admit I'm surprised that CycleOps didn't choose that route for the 300PT. I'm looking forward to 'The Book', and putting some of the knowledge I've gained here to practical use.

Thanks again for the input, and look forward to anyone else's!

J\V

BTW, I hate that little Boy Scout Rocks 'sucker downhill'. One year I got a little too sporty, and another dude latched onto my tail, and then thanked me at the base of the next (and permanent) grade, where he promptly left me sucking wind... LOL

If you want to go sub 1 hour you need: motivation, time, good trainingplan, motivation, time, good equipment, talent and again motivation.

A Pro 300PT should be a good equipment, I have one on order and expect it in the beginning of january.

For a good trainingsplan you should read the book written by Andy Coggan.

And for motivation you MUST read this thread:
It's killing me but....

PaulMD said:

If you want to go sub 1 hour you need: motivation, time, good trainingplan, motivation, time, good equipment, talent and again motivation.

A Pro 300PT should be a good equipment, I have one on order and expect it in the beginning of january.

For a good trainingsplan you should read the book written by Andy Coggan.

And for motivation you MUST read this thread:
It's killing me but....

Thanks for the input, Paul. It's the training plan thing that I will be supremely 'winging it' with. We don't have lots of extra cash around for a coach/trainer, so it's going to be me, myself, and I. 😉 I'm used to getting in better shape by the end of the season (who isn't?), but not in any controlled manner. It's basically work harder/ride more, get faster. I have 10 months to do this, so despite never having broken an hour before, I believe it's not too late, at least.

Thanks again for the helpful input above!

RapDaddyo said:

If you're considering an investment of >$1500 for a trainer, I suggest that you consider one of three options: 300PT, CompuTrainer Pro and Velodyne Classic or Pro. Each option is outstanding, but there are differences.

With the 300PT, you don't have to install your bike to ride. But, with two riders you will spend some time switching the position back and forth. If you use your own bike(s), they are already set up so you only have to install them into the trainer (~2 mins).

The CT Pro uses your own bike(s), so it takes a minute or two to install the bike. One advantage (a big one IMO) is that the CT can be used in ergometer mode. So, you can program a workout and then you just get on your bike and grin and bear it. I think everybody is different but I'd rather define my workout in advance and then just ride it rather than having to work off of a schedule or written plan. Now, it's not very complicated when the workout is simple (e.g., 2x20 @ 100%FTP w/5R @ 50%FTP). But, I sometimes plan very complex workouts for specific courses with power changes as frequently as 30 seconds. It would be a pain to try and manage such workouts without an ergo mode. The CT also has some stuff that makes workouts more fun (graphics and such). I'm not too into that but some people love it.

The Velodyne is a serious, lab quality ergometer. Again, you use your own bike, but the setup is pretty quick. It's probably faster to put a bike in the Velodyne than it is to change the setup of a 300PT. And, it's pretty nice when you ride multiple bikes (e.g., a road bike and a TT bike).

None of these options is cheap, but there is no more efficient way to get a quality workout than on a trainer. BTW, I'm getting a Velodyne Pro.

Rap why the Velodyne over the Computrainer?

Shawneebiker said:

Rap why the Velodyne over the Computrainer?

I guess that's a bit like the question, "Why do you prefer the NY Strip steak over the Porterhouse?" I think that functionally the CT and Velodyne are very similar. I think the CT is more portable, which isn't an issue for me because I already have a portable trainer for pre-race warmups. They are probably comparable in accuracy (very good). I was definitely influenced by Andy C's comment that he would replace his Velodyne with another one if something happened to it. Pretty good authority on serious training with a trainer. Both are supported by WKO+, so that's not an issue. I can upload my power management plans to either one, so that's also not an issue. The Velodyne's display is appealing. And, I guess I like the look of the Velodyne. It sort of goes with the whole torture chamber effect I'm after, together with my planned high-altitude simulation system (and a full-size picture of a charging Bengal tiger on the wall behind me). And maybe a few torture-chamber sound tracks. Sounds like the ideal environment to inflict pain and suffering on myself.😄

I'm still woriking throught the "It's Killing me..." thread; some great info in there, thanks for that heads up.

Any input on the CyclingPeaks software compared to just using PowerAgent7 (which, I might add, massively stalls on OSX, update expected Friday). It seems that all the power freaks around here seem to use it, and if it's that good it's easily worth the $100 to me.

Thanks again for all the input! 🙂

warnerjh said:

Any input on the CyclingPeaks software compared to just using PowerAgent7 (which, I might add, massively stallson OSX, update expected Friday). It seems that all the power freaks around here seem to use it, and if it's that good it's easily worth the $100 to me.

The list of reasons would be too long, but for starters you get NP, IF, TSS and Performance Manager. Any one of those would justify the purchase.

RapDaddyo said:

The list of reasons would be too long, but for starters you get NP, IF, TSS and Performance Manager. Any one of those would justify the purchase.

Would it be overload, since I'm just now getting into this?

warnerjh said:

Would it be overload, since I'm just now getting into this?

Not really, because learning what all the stuff means will enhance your understanding of training and physiology which will in turn influence your training which will in turn lead to more progress and hence, more fun.

warnerjh said:

Would it be overload, since I'm just now getting into this?

The software isn't the overload. When buying a fancy indoortrainer I think that you need the software to use the trainer to it's full potential.

Hmm, my Pro 300PT is propably comming next week or the week after Christmas. Then I will see where I stand (after many weeks of zero training :mad🙂

Thanks RDO and Paul. I guess I'll have to check it out. BTW, the 300PT is sitting in my guest room (covered so my wife doesn't see it), and I'm dying to try it out. I guess I'm big on delayed gratification, though, as I think it's gonna have to wait until Christmas. 🙂

Thanks again for all the input!

PaulMD said:

Hmm, my Pro 300PT is propably coming next week or the week after Christmas. Then I will see where I stand (after many weeks of zero training :mad🙂

So Paul, how are you liking yours? I'm loving mine, although the chain finally stretched a bit after about 600+ 'miles', and now there is no way in hell I can get the wobble out. I'm having someone out to look at it tomorrow to see what can be done. Other than some minor quirks and crappy software (been spending lots of time in Excel lately), it's great...

------------->

So, an update for those who might be curious as to a new user to power, via the 300PT:

My first power test on the 300PT was a 90-minute suffer-fest, and included Andy's prescribed 30s/1m/5m tests, followed by adding the 20-minute FTP test at the end. Needless to say I was a bit tired and I'm guessing it was about 10% low due to all the peak power work before it:

12/26/06 20-min = 221w (tired, 81.1 Kg)
01/02/07 20-min = 246w (fresh re-test)
01/21/07 20-min = 269.5 (79.5 Kg)

The L4 work is doing it's job, and each 2x20 is getting easier. Here's a chart of my progress (expressed in w/Kg), and includes reference curves for Andy Coggan's maximal power output table for different categories of cyclists (instead of visualizing 'slopes' within his table of w/Kg numbers, you can clearly see how your MMP curve fits into the scheme of things).

Now that I'm nearly one month into training with this 300PT, I'm halfway through 'The Book', yet I have one burning question:

How often do you guys update your Training Levels when you know your FTP has increased? For example, after two weeks my previous midpoint of my L4 might end up being at the high end of L3, due to inevitable adaptation. Do you guys simply stay within those previously defined levels for the entire month of training, or do you gradually (and naturally) let your capabilities for a 20-minute effort dictate your performance for the L4 interval? I'm guessing some of you might increase from 20's to perhaps 30 minute intervals, but I guess I need some guidance on what makes the most sense.

Thanks again for all the help!

-Jeff

Warner:

I am lucky enough to live in Walnut Creek, very near to Mt. Diablo (on the South side) and I have done the Mountain Challenge.

One big hint--if you want to do that time, then you better position yourself at the beginning of the pack at the very start i.e. you better get to the front before the start so you don't have to work your way through the crowd. It can take several minutes just to get through the start if you don't put yourself at the front to begin with.

Given your genetics, as evidenced by the time you did before, I certainly think you have the capability to do that time. As you correctly surmise, being whippet thin would help.

I think you are overemphasizing equipment over training. Though I am without personal experience with the Cycle Ops Pro 300 PT, my impression is that it will serve you well as a trainer. I don't, however, think that you can get by with just a trainer.

As far as I am concerned, you have to climb as often as you can to get better at it. I like the idea of doing low cadence (in the 50s) high resistance early on. In fact, that is how I have been training when I go up the Mountain lately. To do the time you are talking about, I would suspect (not having done that time myself), that you would need to spend a lot of time at or above your threshold after you lay down your base. Think of the Challenge as an hour long hill time trial. The thing about the South side is that it never gets really steep for very long. The first section, just past the Athenian School, has some steep pitches and it is kind of a pain the ass when you are trying to develop a rhythm at the beginning but it gets better after that. It flattens out around Rock City and you can really rocket through that section. Past the Junction it does get steep again and that final 1000 feet at 18 percent is a real bear.

If I were trying to plan an indoor training plan for the Mt. Diablo Challenge, I would try to get a handle on how much power, in Watts, I would need to average to handle pitches that vary from 6 to 13 percent at 12 miles per hour. Of course, I would throw in a very stiff resistance at the end to simulate the 18 percent grade. Cruel, I know, but it is the reality.

I must confess that I truly love climbing Mt. Diablo. I love everything about it... the snow at the top in Winter, the Tarantulas crossing the road in the Fall, the places hollowed out in the rocks where the Indians ground their food, dancing down the descent as the sun goes down in the summer, climbing through the clouds to get the top (yes I mean literally climbing through clouds). Wonderful stuff. I am a lucky man even if I am a Southsider.

Southside Glenn, member of the Diablo Cyclists.

warnerjh said:

OK, long time lurker, first time poster (here in the Power Forum). I apologize in advance for the rather dubious lead-in to quite a few questions I have, being completely new to this 'power' thing. I have been scouring this forum for the last week, doing lots of reading, and you all are a wealth of information!

BACKGROUND: 42M, never raced, ride both road and mountain anywhere from 500-2000 miles per year, formerly hated riding the trainer indoors, but did it anyway (way back when). 5'10", medium build. I've been told I have big legs. 😄

Mt. Diablo Challenge: Former best time is 1:02:48 (back in the early 90's), for the 10.8 mile, 3350' climb (Danville/Walnut Creek, CA). For those of you unfamiliar, this is one of the finest climbs in the US, bar none. 😎

CURRENT: Been pretty lazy since having two sons in the last 7 years, and only riding a bit (500-1000 per year), mostly road. Finally accomplished one of my cylcing goals 2 years ago and did the Bob Cook Memorial up to the summit of Mt. Evans, CO, in about 3:19 (for the 6500' climb to 14,270' MSL). When my weight hit 199.5 on October 21, 2006, I finally had had enough. I want to meet my grandchildren! :eek:
---------------------------------------------------->
Fast-forward to today, and I've been trying to eat better, been riding even though it approaches winter here in Colorado, and have re-mounted the trainer in the basement for 90-minute 'calorie sloughs'. My weight is down to 184, and I should be at 174 by the first week of January, and about 162 by 2nd week of February. Yes, you heard it here first, folks. This initial phase is concentrated on fat-dropping, regardless of effect upon my muscle mass. I'm eating well to prevent as much muscle loss as possible, but it's inevitable with a 1500-1800 cal/day diet. I'm lucky enough to live at the base of Lookout Mountain here in Golden, CO, so have a 4.4 mile, 1400' training climb 7 minutes from my door.

Here's where y'all's opinion comes in, assuming you've made it this far. 🙂

After a fair amount of research, I have a CycleOps Pro 300PT waiting to be picked up, a gift for my wife and I for Christmas. She is a dedicated health enthusiast and professional, and she's been riding her Cannondale R900 on our old-school Blackburn Mag Trackstand nearly every morning for practically as long as we've been together. Due to my permanent commmitment to future health, the 300PT will be the mainstay of my off-season health maintenance, and the new wheels I also got her for her bike will keep it off the trainer. The 300PT really appealed to my sense of being a cyclist, since it appears to be designed for cyclists, not gym-spin rats (not that there's anything wrong with the gym). 😉

My questions:

1) As far as the 300PT goes, I'd really like to hear people's impressions of it, in detail. Is it about the best indoor cycle out there? I assume it's beefy enough to be able to stand and really crank, without moving all over like my bike does on the trainer.

This will be the first experience we've had with a fixed-gear setup, and I have to admit I'm a bit unsettled about it. I really like to stop and stretch occasionally, and I can't imagine braking that big flywheel to a stop to do so, only to have get the thing going again.

Does the lack of a 'proper' road-style 'drop' handlebar bug anyone?

I've spoken with the Product Manager at Saris about this product, and despite their assertion that they've designed this unit 'for cyclists', I can't get my ahead around the fact that speed at a constant cadence doesn't increase with an increase in resistance setting. Seems completely counterintuitive to me (not being a fixed-gear guy), and it would seem that having a fixed relationship between cadence and speed (at varying resistance) is no less inaccurate than having the computer try to calculate a speed based upon the resistance setting. [I do realize that training with power makes looking at numbers like speed and HR somewhat irrelevant, but I'm a numbers kind of guy] Maybe I simply need to re-calibrate my brain to think of an increase in effort on the 300PT to be similar to an increase in grade, but my brain wants to see it as speed. It's odd, since most of my time on the bike is climbing... ???

I have read every 300PT thread on this forum back through 1/06, and have run across the Pez.com review. Actual detailed user experiences would be great!

2) The Mt. Diablo Challenge is the first Sunday in October, and my riding buddy has committed to joining me for the trip (assuming I join him for Mt. Washington some other year). My goal has always been to get up within that elusive hour, and yet that last 3 minutes really separates the men and the boys. I'm hoping that engaging in power training will be integral to achieving the goal, and would appreciate any info that anyone could possibly provide. I realize this is a long road, and that peaking in October is a bit unusual, although it was what I was once accustomed to before moving to CO. Hopefully training here in CO will help, cardiovascularly, at least.

3) Is Cycling Peaks SW considered practically required for all but the most casual power-trainers? I've been using a Polar 720i for years, and love all the data it provides (mine is very reliable and consistent). I am an altitude junkie, and if it weren't for what I've read of Polar's impending CS600, I'd probably jump on the current Power accessory, but I'm willing to wait for the latest and greatest. Yes, I've read all the threads on Polar vs. PowerTap, but I'm not that dedicated. Really. I swear.

I have Andy Coggan's book on the way, so I'm still not up on the details of power training, but soon will be!

Anyway, sorry for the long ramble. I've learned lot here lately, and I would sincerely appreciate any information, personal experiences, and encouragement that your collective experience(s) could possibly provide!

J\V

Lookout Mountain is about a 20 min climb. I think Deer Creek/High Grade Road (another popular climb in the same area) would be good as the date approaches. That climb is about an hour long so it'd be more similar to Diablo.

Hello Jeff, Nice results! 30-40 watts increase of FTP in only one month is coool 🙂 I have my 300PT since 7 january 2007. And I am loving it. It rides nicely and I can do good 2 x 20 minute work outs @ L4. At the time that my chain is going to stretch out I will change the crank into a crank with adjustable cranklenght.

I immediately bought Cyclingpeaks WKO+ software and it works great. I have frequently updated my FTP in the software because in the first two weeks it was growing rapidly. First estimated FTP was around 230 - 240 watt.

On sunday I did my last work out (I haven't had time since then) and I did two intervals of 20 minutes @ L4.
[indent][indent]T 20:19, AP 264, NP 264, HF 175, C 105
T 24:12, AP 274, NP 275, HF 179, C 104

[/indent][/indent]I estimated my FTP at 260 watt @ 69kg. I hope that I have time and energy to train this evening.

warnerjh said:

So Paul, how are you liking yours? I'm loving mine, although the chain finally stretched a bit after about 600+ 'miles', and now there is no way in hell I can get the wobble out. I'm having someone out to look at it tomorrow to see what can be done. Other than some minor quirks and crappy software (been spending lots of time in Excel lately), it's great...

------------->

So, an update for those who might be curious as to a new user to power, via the 300PT:

My first power test on the 300PT was a 90-minute suffer-fest, and included Andy's prescribed 30s/1m/5m tests, followed by adding the 20-minute FTP test at the end. Needless to say I was a bit tired and I'm guessing it was about 10% low due to all the peak power work before it:

12/26/06 20-min = 221w (tired, 81.1 Kg)
01/02/07 20-min = 246w (fresh re-test)
01/21/07 20-min = 269.5 (79.5 Kg)

The L4 work is doing it's job, and each 2x20 is getting easier. Here's a chart of my progress (expressed in w/Kg), and includes reference curves for Andy Coggan's maximal power output table for different categories of cyclists (instead of visualizing 'slopes' within his table of w/Kg numbers, you can clearly see how your MMP curve fits into the scheme of things).

Now that I'm nearly one month into training with this 300PT, I'm halfway through 'The Book', yet I have one burning question:

How often do you guys update your Training Levels when you know your FTP has increased? For example, after two weeks my previous midpoint of my L4 might end up being at the high end of L3, due to inevitable adaptation. Do you guys simply stay within those previously defined levels for the entire month of training, or do you gradually (and naturally) let your capabilities for a 20-minute effort dictate your performance for the L4 interval? I'm guessing some of you might increase from 20's to perhaps 30 minute intervals, but I guess I need some guidance on what makes the most sense.

Thanks again for all the help!

-Jeff

creekbruin said:

Warner:

I am lucky enough to live in Walnut Creek, very near to Mt. Diablo (on the South side) and I have done the Mountain Challenge.

Southside Glenn, nice to hear from someone in Wally World! (I used to live right near Shell Ridge) Thanks for the input, and you're quite right about the start line. I'm hoping that people will take pity on us having travelled all the way from Colorado to try to break the hour. Due to the 'mass start' mentality, it's a toss up between trying to get a decent warmup in and sacrificing your place at the start. Oh well...

I love everything about Mt. Diablo as well, it's such a spiritual place for me. I met my wife at the summit (saw her come across the finish line), and two years later (1994) ended up proposing to her (in front of the whole crowd) during the prize/awards ceremonies after the race.

As far as power requirements go, I'm estimating (via AnalyticCycling.com) I'll need between 280 and 288 watts, but I assumed 10.8 mph, as that's the distance from Athenian School, at least based upon my previous ride data.

I can't wait to ride 'her' again... :o

-Jeff

Squint said:

Lookout Mountain is about a 20 min climb. I think Deer Creek/High Grade Road (another popular climb in the same area) would be good as the date approaches. That climb is about an hour long so it'd be more similar to Diablo.

Hey Squint,

I'll have to ride Deer Creek, I haven't done that one before. I've been heading up toward Evergreen from Golden lately (before the weather turned for the worse), but it's an inconsistent climb above Buffalo Bill. I'd really like to find a consistent 3000'+ climb that's ridable from to home to truly train at/near FTP.

Thanks for the input.

-Jeff