TSB & what WO to do

Doublebiker said:

[font=Times New Roman]- my plan is (was) to do a L5, but because my TSB is ”-X” I better not try...[/font][font=Times New Roman]or:[/font][font=Times New Roman]- my TSB is ”-X”, so I better try a L3 instead of a L4?...[/font][font=Times New Roman]So, are anyone using the TSB number in this way? [/font]

I don't use absolute TSB numbers that way but instead look at positive or negative trends in TSB to plan workout intensity or CP testing dates. I know periodization is debated in terms of cycling performance(as opposed to weight lifting) but I still believe in stress/recovery cycles on the micro, meso and macro level throughout the season. Or in other words I believe in "coming up for air" occasionally as pointed out in a recent overtraining post.

One way to do that is to look at the short and long term TSB trend. I've got Cycling Peaks set to display a bar graph as well as line graph for TSB and watch the overall wave like shape of that bar graph. As I hit the valleys of the waves after a few weeks of successively harder training I avoid formal CP testing or introducing new higher level workouts. After a recovery week with lower intensities and durations TSB rebounds, the wave has risen and I plan my testing and introduce new workouts to ramp up CTL. That'll drive TSB even lower in the next cycle but it's not the absoute TSB value I'm watching. Limited training time and only six months with a PM(and less time with Cycling Peaks Performance Manager) have kept me from reaching a TSB floor but I expect it's there and folks who've tracked power through overtraining cycles might have a better feel for the question "how low can you go?"

BTW even though I'm looking for a wave like TSB graph and try to plan harder efforts near the peaks of the wave I'm not actually going positive with my TSB this time of year. I'm just looking for the positive trend, not actual positive numbers. I don't expect to actually get positive TSB values until I taper next summer or have some sort of training interrupt(like that damn work stuff or an unexpected illness in which case TSB rise is a bit misleading).

just my two cents.......

-Dave

Doublebiker said:

[font=Times New Roman]Have any of you been using the PMC for so long that you have been able to establish guidelines for what do to when, like:[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]- my plan is (was) to do a L5, but because my TSB is ”-X” I better not try[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]or:[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]- my TSB is ”-X”, so I better try a L3 instead of a L4?[/font]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]So, are anyone using the TSB number in this way? [/font]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]– today my TSB is –30 so, L3 is possible, but L5 – no way…[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]– today my TSB is –5 – L5 here I come![/font]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Is it likely it also depends on your CTL? /assuming a ”normal” mix of WO in the past.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]To individually to compare?[/font]

Bear in mind that TSB is only indicative of the freshness you carry as a result of training load - NOT what that load has comprised of.

In other words, if your TSB indicates an easier day is a good idea, then you could structure a workout in many different ways to achieve that lower desired TSS for the day.

peterwright said:

Bear in mind that TSB is only indicative of the freshness you carry as a result of training load - NOT what that load has comprised of.

In other words, if your TSB indicates an easier day is a good idea, then you could structure a workout in many different ways to achieve that lower desired TSS for the day.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm just wondering if someone been able to put a number on "if your TSB indicates an easier day is a good idea" when deciding on what to do when. Maybe not on a daily basis, but when you try to plan a month ahead.

Personally, I don't let TSB dictate specific workouts.
My training plan *is* structured so that my TSB generally is positive for target events (or performance tests) but I don't see the point of scheduling easy workouts when TSB will be particularly negative.

FWIW, in build phases I've completed very hard workouts on days with TSB <-40 and not had any trouble completing the next day's workout. But since I take 1-2 rest or active recovery days per week and a rest week every 4th week, my TSB never stays that low for long. OTOH, barring my season break, TSB is never positive except for tapers and a few days each rest week when it is still <5 or so.

peterpen said:

Personally, I don't let TSB dictate specific workouts.
My training plan *is* structured so that my TSB generally is positive for target events (or performance tests) but I don't see the point of scheduling easy workouts when TSB will be particularly negative.

FWIW, in build phases I've completed very hard workouts on days with TSB <-40 and not had any trouble completing the next day's workout. But since I take 1-2 rest or active recovery days per week and a rest week every 4th week, my TSB never stays that low for long. OTOH, barring my season break, TSB is never positive except for tapers and a few days each rest week when it is still <5 or so.

Hm, I have the same pattern myself /except the rest weeks/ OTOH I have 3
rest or active recovery days per week. But if I would try to do a L5 with a TSB -40, I wouldn't make it through the whole WO.

I guess it's like "everything else" highly individual, and, also dependent on your CTL. If you have a high CTL you have to have a really high ATL to have a very negative TSB (if I've understand it right).

It's a learning process!

Doublebiker said:

...
I guess it's like "everything else" highly individual, and, also dependent on your CTL. If you have a high CTL you have to have a really high ATL to have a very negative TSB (if I've understand it right).
...

Exactly - that's why just looking at TSB numbers can be troublesome. To put my #'s in context, CTL was ~135, ATL ranged from 140 to 180, and I was racing at least one hard RR every weekend when I saw my lowest TSB of -46. OTOH, that's not that much lower than my TSB last week at the end of a heavy base block (-34.)

what's the reason for it going lower even when there was no workourt?

I'm a firm believer in TSS concept, and in the systems that go with it.

But at this point in time, I'm not ready to rely on PMC to dictate the work load yet. I trust the concept, but I don't trust my ability to generate accurate data with it enough yet.

For now, my only focus goes to CTL, I just want to see it going up and up.

giannip said:

what's the reason for it going lower even when there was no workourt?

Today's TSB number is calculated on yesterday's ATL/CTL numbers. So if you did a relatively high TSS ride yesterday, then ATL probably went up more than CTL, hence today's TSB would drop even though you are not riding today.

Thanks Alex.

While digging further into the subject, I found an article on the CYcling Peaks Software.

Basically as I had used the PT without the hub for a few rides, the PM chart was starting from 0. I followed the sugestion to take the weekly hours x 50 or 75 and use that as the startingTSS / day value.

Does that sound correct ?

The chart now looks much more realistic as before it was at -46, taking into account that I hve only used the PT correctly since the 11 of Jan 2007...

TSB is now at now at 3.1