Cheap disk are not better than good V-brakes!

"Jerry Everetts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am going from a disk to a v-brake. I remember somebody asking about this, my bike has XTR
V-brakes and levers, I bought a Grimeca system 7 mech disk for the front, and it sucked in
comparison the the XTR v-brake, off it comes. only two weeks old, if anybody wants it for cheep.

Jerry

Don't you mean system 9 from eBay? I've posted this before, and I'll say it again. They are [censored].

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

"Jerry Everetts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am going from a disk to a v-brake. I remember somebody asking about this, my bike has XTR
V-brakes and levers, I bought a Grimeca system 7 mech disk for the front, and it sucked in
comparison the the XTR v-brake, off it comes. only two weeks old, if anybody wants it for cheep.

Jerry

Don't you mean system 9 from eBay? I've posted this before, and I'll say it again. They are [censored].

actually it is a system 7, mechanical, with a 160mm rotor.

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jerry Everetts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am going from a disk to a v-brake. I remember somebody asking about this, my bike has XTR
V-brakes and levers, I bought a Grimeca system 7 mech disk for the front, and it sucked in
comparison the the XTR v-brake, off it comes. only two weeks old, if anybody wants it for

cheep.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jerry

Don't you mean system 9 from eBay? I've posted this before, and I'll say

it

Quoted message said:

again. They are [censored].

Yup. He did tell you. And we told you that even the best mechanicals do not equal good
hydraulics. Can't happen. A cable is a cable is a cable. It stretches some, it drags against a
housing, it does eventually break. Sure hydraulics have their limitations and downsides too, if
you fear leaks, etc. I personally don't because they are FAR more rare than cable problems.
Don't give up on discs just because you tried [censored]. Buy Hayes or XT or Hope hydros and see what
you've missed. I will NEVER go back to rim-eating, grabby, useless-in-the-wet brakes again.
--
Off to ride the mountains, D H Reply to newsgroup. Spam is out of control.

"D H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1067275081.569220@cache2...

Quoted message said:

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jerry Everetts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am going from a disk to a v-brake. I remember somebody asking about this, my bike has XTR
V-brakes and levers, I bought a Grimeca system 7 mech disk for the front, and it sucked in
comparison the the XTR v-brake, off it comes. only two weeks old, if anybody wants it for

cheep.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jerry

Don't you mean system 9 from eBay? I've posted this before, and I'll

say

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

again. They are [censored].

Yup. He did tell you. And we told you that even the best mechanicals

do

Quoted message said:

not equal good hydraulics. Can't happen. A cable is a cable is a cable. It stretches some, it
drags against a housing, it does eventually break. Sure hydraulics have their limitations and
downsides too, if you fear leaks,

etc.

Quoted message said:

I personally don't because they are FAR more rare than cable problems. Don't give up on discs
just because you tried [censored]. Buy Hayes or XT or Hope hydros and see what you've missed. I will
NEVER go back to

rim-eating,

Quoted message said:

grabby, useless-in-the-wet brakes again.
--
Off to ride the mountains, D H Reply to newsgroup. Spam is out of control.

Preach it Brother!!!

Mike - couldn't have said it better myself.

Not to belabor this, but I've been seriously considering going to mechanical discs recently. At this
point I'm forced to rely on hearsay and advertising (yikes) as opposed to personal experience. I
ride with slightly older XT V brakes right now, and they have their limitations. About to hit the
Oregon monsoon season, so the limitations will be growing.

On the flip side, I'm fairly light and ride a fairly light XC setup. I do techie trails without a
lot of screamin downhill. After some web searching, I had pretty much set my sights on 6" Avid
ball-bearing style mechanicals. Gotta get me some decent disc wheels first, so I've been stalling in
my quest....

With this info, am I really going to see a big benefit from hydro brakes over mechanical? I'm not
looking for flame wars on people's personal preferences, just wondering if the extra
cost/weight/maintenance is worth it in my case?

TIA Gary

"D H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1067275081.569220@cache2...

Quoted message said:

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jerry Everetts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am going from a disk to a v-brake. I remember somebody asking about this, my bike has XTR
V-brakes and levers, I bought a Grimeca system 7 mech disk for the front, and it sucked in
comparison the the XTR v-brake, off it comes. only two weeks old, if anybody wants it for

cheep.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jerry

Don't you mean system 9 from eBay? I've posted this before, and I'll

say

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

again. They are [censored].

Yup. He did tell you. And we told you that even the best mechanicals

do

Quoted message said:

not equal good hydraulics. Can't happen. A cable is a cable is a cable. It stretches some, it
drags against a housing, it does eventually break. Sure hydraulics have their limitations and
downsides too, if you fear leaks,

etc.

Quoted message said:

I personally don't because they are FAR more rare than cable problems. Don't give up on discs
just because you tried [censored]. Buy Hayes or XT or Hope hydros and see what you've missed. I will
NEVER go back to

rim-eating,

Quoted message said:

grabby, useless-in-the-wet brakes again.
--
Off to ride the mountains, D H Reply to newsgroup. Spam is out of control.

Gwood said:

Not to belabor this, but I've been seriously considering going to mechanical discs recently. At
this point I'm forced to rely on hearsay and advertising (yikes) as opposed to personal
experience. I ride with slightly older XT V brakes right now, and they have their limitations.
About to hit the Oregon monsoon season, so the limitations will be growing.

On the flip side, I'm fairly light and ride a fairly light XC setup. I do techie trails without a
lot of screamin downhill. After some web searching, I had pretty much set my sights on 6" Avid
ball-bearing style mechanicals. Gotta get me some decent disc wheels first, so I've been stalling
in my quest....

With this info, am I really going to see a big benefit from hydro brakes over mechanical? I'm not
looking for flame wars on people's personal preferences, just wondering if the extra
cost/weight/maintenance is worth it in my case?

TIA Gary

I think so. I went to mechanical disk on the front only, and there's no more squealing and it stops
better (particularly in the wet and snow).

--
Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply

"D H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<1067275081.569220@cache2>...

Quoted message said:

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't you mean system 9 from eBay? I've posted this before, and I'll say

it

Quoted message said:

again. They are [censored].

And we told you that even the best mechanicals do not equal good hydraulics. Can't happen.

While *strictly* true, most folks will enjoy the large V-to-disc benefits far more than the small
mech-to-hydro benefits. Especially when price is factored in.

Quoted message said:

A cable is a cable is a cable.

This is actually a plus. Cables are very reliable, known systems. Especially in bicycle
applications. They don't leak, never get cavitation, are not hydroscopic, and never boil due to heat
build-up in the caliper.

Quoted message said:

It stretches some

Myth.

Quoted message said:

it drags against a housing

Teflon against teflon makes this point moot.

Quoted message said:

it does eventually break

Not if you replace them every two years (YMMV.) A whole set of brake cables is pretty damn cheap.
And easy to install. Cheap and easy - Sorni's favorite combo.

Quoted message said:

Sure hydraulics have their limitations and downsides too, if you fear leaks, etc.

Especially when it leaks right on the pads. Some hydros are a PITA to bleed.

Quoted message said:

I personally don't because they are FAR more rare than cable problems.

Having run both kinds, I have noticed no reliability differences. Mechs are cheaper to get, easier
to set up and do the job almost as well as hydros.

Quoted message said:

Don't give up on discs just because you tried [censored]. Buy Hayes or XT or Hope hydros and see what
you've missed. I will NEVER go back to rim-eating, grabby, useless-in-the-wet brakes again.

Hey, we agree on that, at least. But if someone's on a budget, then Avid mechanicals are nearly as
good as decent hydro disks - for a fraction of the price. I liked my Hayes hydros, but I'm running
Avid mechs now. The very small performance hit I took is more than made up for in the other ways
mentioned.
--
Jonesy

E-mail me: rfjonesy *at* hotmail *dot* com.

Jonesy said:

Quoted message said:

A cable is a cable is a cable.

This is actually a plus. Cables are very reliable, known systems. Especially in bicycle
applications. They don't leak, never get cavitation, are not hydroscopic, and never boil due to
heat build-up in the caliper.

Cables snap if you pull too hard.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It stretches some

Myth.

Is this one of those engineer things when you get to be all clever and say that a cable doesn't
'stretch'? If you're saying that cables don't lengthen a little after use, then I'll dispute that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it drags against a housing

Teflon against teflon makes this point moot.

Not in my experience. All the teflon cables I've had have performed worse after a good dose of
Northern European weather.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it does eventually break

Not if you replace them every two years (YMMV.) A whole set of brake cables is pretty damn cheap.
And easy to install. Cheap and easy - Sorni's favorite combo.

Good shot!

--
a.m-b FAQ: j-harris.netambfaq.htmOpen ↗

b.bmx FAQ: t-online.debmx faq.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

ok, but it took a bit more lever pressure than the XTR V-brake.

That bothers me too. I like the adjustability of my featherlight v-brakes.

To my replyer... I am not discounting discs entirely... but there's a bit of a weight penalty, plus
a new hub. I'm in Florida. No downhills. Ergo, discs not needed 😉

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

ok, but it took a bit more lever pressure than the XTR V-brake.

That bothers me too. I like the adjustability of my featherlight v-brakes.

To my replyer... I am not discounting discs entirely... but there's a bit of a weight penalty,
plus a new hub. I'm in Florida. No downhills. Ergo, discs not needed 😉

PHil, I am in Florida as well, where are you at?

Opinions please. I have XTR vbrakes and the XTR shift/brake lever combo (one piece). I want to get
disk brakes for the front but I don't want to loose my XTR shifter? I was thinking about going with
a cable disk brake .. not ideal I know but at least that way I should be able to keep the XTR combo
... what would you do? I figure a really good cable disk should be comparable to a cheap to average
hydrolic disk?

Barn Barn

In article <[email hidden]>, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ok, but it took a bit more lever pressure than the XTR V-brake.

That bothers me too. I like the adjustability of my featherlight v-brakes.

To my replyer... I am not discounting discs entirely... but there's a bit of a weight penalty, plus
a new hub. I'm in Florida. No downhills. Ergo, discs not needed 😉

bomba said:

Jonesy said:

This is actually a plus. Cables are very reliable, known systems. Especially in bicycle
applications. They don't leak, never get cavitation, are not hydroscopic, and never boil due to
heat build-up in the caliper.

Cables snap if you pull too hard.

I have never heard of such a thing. I believe it can happen, but is seems very unlikely, unless you
are just standing still and trying to snap them.

OTOH, I do replace cables and housing every spring, and I do not have the weather you guys to over
there. But I use my brakes pretty hard (Avid Mechs) for long, sometimes steep downhills.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)

bomba <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jonesy said:

Quoted message said:

A cable is a cable is a cable.

This is actually a plus. Cables are very reliable, known systems. Especially in bicycle
applications. They don't leak, never get cavitation, are not hydroscopic, and never boil due to
heat build-up in the caliper.

Cables snap if you pull too hard.

LOL. I'd love to see you do that. I mean, really - would you like to guess the tensile strength of a
wound cable? Now, to snap it, you have to really exceed that strength. I'm guessing, even with steel
levers, your hand, even BOTH hands, couldn't do it. Next?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It stretches some

Myth.

Is this one of those engineer things when you get to be all clever and say that a cable doesn't
'stretch'?

It doesn't. Not to any measurable degree. I'm sure that a FAQ could be produced to prove it -
written by an engineer, no less.

Quoted message said:

If you're saying that cables don't lengthen a little after use, then I'll dispute that.

Dispute it all you like, it still isn't true.

Here's what happens to a cable/housing/ferrule system:

As you use the system, the housings will seat into the ferrules. This happens because nobody can
really get a perfectly even, 90-degree cut on the housing. Cable stays the same length, housing
shortens a little, due to "bedding in."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it drags against a housing

Teflon against teflon makes this point moot.

Not in my experience. All the teflon cables I've had have performed worse after a good dose of
Northern European weather.

After having ridden years in a similar climate (Western Washington State,) I have found that
teflon-on-teflon works great, all the time. I replace the cables every year or so, and the
housings every two to three. I clean the gunk out if the cable hangs up much. None of the things
mentioned are serious drawbacks to using cable anything. They are regular things you would have to
do if you had Vs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it does eventually break

Not if you replace them every two years (YMMV.) A whole set of brake cables is pretty damn
cheap. And easy to install. Cheap and easy - Sorni's favorite combo.

Good shot!

Thanks. I'll try JD next. 🙂
--
Jonesy

E-mail me: rfjonesy *at* hotmail *dot* com

Jonesy said:

Quoted message said:

Cables snap if you pull too hard.

LOL. I'd love to see you do that. I mean, really - would you like to guess the tensile strength of
a wound cable? Now, to snap it, you have to really exceed that strength. I'm guessing, even with
steel levers, your hand, even BOTH hands, couldn't do it. Next?

I've broken several. More on the bmx, but a couple on the mountain bike. There's no way of proving
that I didn't cut this, but here's the last Oryg cable I snapped (I kept it for spares):

j-harris.netcable1.jpgOpen ↗ j-harris.netcable2.jpgOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this one of those engineer things when you get to be all clever and say that a cable doesn't
'stretch'?

It doesn't. Not to any measurable degree. I'm sure that a FAQ could be produced to prove it -
written by an engineer, no less.

Quoted message said:

If you're saying that cables don't lengthen a little after use, then I'll dispute that.

Dispute it all you like, it still isn't true.

Here's what happens to a cable/housing/ferrule system:

As you use the system, the housings will seat into the ferrules. This happens because nobody can
really get a perfectly even, 90-degree cut on the housing. Cable stays the same length, housing
shortens a little, due to "bedding in."

Interesting, but why do you have to adjust your gears after a couple of weeks when you put in a new
cable (using older housing)?

Cables do stretch as the outer wires close around the core under tension. This is known as
'constructional stretch' (spot who's been on Google 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Teflon against teflon makes this point moot.

Not in my experience. All the teflon cables I've had have performed worse after a good dose of
Northern European weather.

After having ridden years in a similar climate (Western Washington State,) I have found that
teflon-on-teflon works great, all the time. I replace the cables every year or so, and the
housings every two to three. I clean the gunk out if the cable hangs up much. None of the things
mentioned are serious drawbacks to using cable anything. They are regular things you would have to
do if you had Vs.

Mine have always fouled up on the first or second wet ride. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>it does eventually break

Not if you replace them every two years (YMMV.) A whole set of brake cables is pretty damn cheap.
And easy to install. Cheap and easy - Sorni's favorite combo.

Good shot!

Thanks. I'll try JD next. 🙂

🙂

"Jerry Everetts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

ok, but it took a bit more lever pressure than the XTR V-brake.

That bothers me too. I like the adjustability of my featherlight

v-brakes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To my replyer... I am not discounting discs entirely... but there's a

bit of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a weight penalty, plus a new hub. I'm in Florida. No downhills. Ergo, discs not needed 😉

PHil, I am in Florida as well, where are you at?

Gainesville @ UF. I see you're nearby Orlando, no?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

As an engineer who has also worked several years in a bike shop, I just can't stop myself...

bomba <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Cables snap if you pull too hard.

I just dissected a brake cable and looked up its properties. (1X19 SS wire, 1/16" dia.) Several
sources listed a minimum breaking strength of 500 pounds. Quick measurements show my Avid levers
have about a
1.7X leverage. Let's call it 2X. Let's even assume that the clamp bolt cuts the strength of the wire
in half. That still means you would have to apply over 125 pounds with your 2 fingers to break
that wire. Scary handshake! More likely a cable that breaks in service has been compromised by
abrasion or corrosion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It stretches some

Myth.

Is this one of those engineer things when you get to be all clever and say that a cable doesn't
'stretch'? If you're saying that cables don't lengthen a little after use, then I'll dispute that.

No, the cables don't stretch, the housings and ferrules seat in. It feels like stretch, you adjust
it like stretch, but technically it's shrinkage. If you could generate enough force to stretch the
cable once, it would stretch again every time you applied that much force, and you'd be adjusting
every ride!

All that aside, I'd gladly invest in discs if I my frame was compatable.

Dave

Phil said:

"Jerry Everetts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

>ok, but it took a bit more lever pressure than the XTR V-brake.

That bothers me too. I like the adjustability of my featherlight

v-brakes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To my replyer... I am not discounting discs entirely... but there's a

bit of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a weight penalty, plus a new hub. I'm in Florida. No downhills. Ergo, discs not needed 😉

PHil, I am in Florida as well, where are you at?

Gainesville @ UF. I see you're nearby Orlando, no?

Daytona area... ever get down this way?

On 29 Oct 2003 16:12:06 -0800, Dave <[email hidden]> wrote:

[cut]

Quoted message said:

All that aside, I'd gladly invest in discs if I my frame was compatable.

Dave

You might consider front-only cable-operated disks. I did this because my V-brakes were squealing
and I ride in the wet/snow/ice, and V-brakes don't like to stop in the wet. I switch to riding my
mountain bike on the road once the snow falls. I don't ride that often (two days a week or so). This
winter, I'm going to head out to some simple trails once they're nice and frozen.

--
Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply

bomba <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jonesy said:

Quoted message said:

Cables snap if you pull too hard.

LOL. I'd love to see you do that. I mean, really - would you like to guess the tensile strength
of a wound cable? Now, to snap it, you have to really exceed that strength. I'm guessing, even
with steel levers, your hand, even BOTH hands, couldn't do it. Next?

I've broken several.

None that were brand new, I'll wager.

Quoted message said:

More on the bmx, but a couple on the mountain bike. There's no way of proving that I didn't cut
this, but here's the last Oryg cable I snapped (I kept it for spares):

I'm not familiar with the brand, but I will assume that it's quality is on par with RideOn or such
like. I am going to guess that some sort of damage began the failure, and that you just finished it
off. When I seat ferrules and housings, I use four fingers and really pull the cable hard. I do
that ten times, adjust, and the thing stays the same for the rest of the season(s). No adjusting. I
never need more than one finger to lock up my Avids. I think there's more going on here than mere
cable breakage.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this one of those engineer things when you get to be all clever and say that a cable doesn't
'stretch'?

It doesn't. Not to any measurable degree. I'm sure that a FAQ could be produced to prove it -
written by an engineer, no less.

Quoted message said:

If you're saying that cables don't lengthen a little after use, then I'll dispute that.

Dispute it all you like, it still isn't true.

Here's what happens to a cable/housing/ferrule system:

As you use the system, the housings will seat into the ferrules. This happens because nobody can
really get a perfectly even, 90-degree cut on the housing. Cable stays the same length, housing
shortens a little, due to "bedding in."

Interesting, but why do you have to adjust your gears after a couple of weeks when you put in a
new cable (using older housing)?

Nope. Once I install the stuff, seat the housings and ferrules, the thing stays right until I have
to change the housings and ferrules again.

Quoted message said:

Cables do stretch as the outer wires close around the core under tension. This is known as
'constructional stretch' (spot who's been on Google 🙂

Heh. Die-drawn bicycle cables are already "pre-stretched" then. We are still talking about bicycle
cables, right?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Teflon against teflon makes this point moot.

Not in my experience. All the teflon cables I've had have performed worse after a good dose of
Northern European weather.

After having ridden years in a similar climate (Western Washington State,) I have found that
teflon-on-teflon works great, all the time. I replace the cables every year or so, and the
housings every two to three. I clean the gunk out if the cable hangs up much. None of the things
mentioned are serious drawbacks to using cable anything. They are regular things you would have
to do if you had Vs.

Mine have always fouled up on the first or second wet ride. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

I would say so! I've used RideOn, Shimano SIS and Jagwire, all Teflon/Teflon, and never had any
problem, either with the brake or derailleur cable (that was not of my own ham-handedness.) Every so
often (no regular interval - just when I get around to it,) I shoot out the housing with WD40, then
compressed air. I then run a little Krytox spray into the housing and let it dry (Teflon based lube)
Put the cable in, snug everything up - viola! 😉 Run it some more until I get around to lubing (or
replacing the cable) again. I really don't put that much effort into the whole deal.

My cables have never broken, and they don't hang up unless I snag them on something and they get a
kink. That's happened a couple of times. I understand that if you do that to hydro brakes, they can
leak and leave you without brakes without your knowledge. A definite downside.

In addition, hydro hose needs a special tool to cut, right? And some you can't cut, but need to
leave as-is. I've never had to do it, so I don't know. My Kona came with Hayes already on it.
--
Jonesy

E-mail me: rfjonesy *at* hotmail *dot* com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>it does eventually break
>
>Not if you replace them every two years (YMMV.) A whole set of brake cables is pretty damn
>cheap. And easy to install. Cheap and easy - Sorni's favorite combo.

Good shot!

Thanks. I'll try JD next. 🙂

🙂