Brooks Swift/Swallow

Andrew Price said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

Can't speak to the Swift-Swallow differences since I only own the
Brooks Swift. And Brooks Professional. And Brooks B17. Swift is on
the racing bike. Racing style bike. It is definitely narrower than
the Professional. Professional is on the brevet, long distance
bikes. Swift is fine for me up to 150 miles. Around that point I
prefer the wider Professional. Professional has been fine for me up
to 311 miles. Haven't ridden more than 311 at one time but I suspect
the Professional will be fine for longer. I plan to ride further than
311 at one go this year. Not much mileage on the B17 so can't comment
on how far its good for.

in message <[email hidden]>, Andrew Price

(') said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

Yup. One may be the width that fits your sitbones, in which case the other
isn't. However, without doing something decidedly personal and intimate,
we can't tell you which.

Bear in mind, though, that Brooks saddles, while (if they fit you)
exceedingly comfortable, are also exceedingly heavy. two years ago I had
Brooks Professionals on all my bikes; now I have Selle Italia SLRs, which
I personally find equally comfortable and which has saved 500 grammes per
bike.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; single speed mountain bikes: for people who cycle on flat mountains.

Andrew Price said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

Don't know about the modern versions but the Swallow I have (from some
decades ago) was very different to all the other Brooks - it has
folded-under leather sections one each side that are rivitted together with
a steel plate.

And it is extremely narrow.

And it - like all the Swallows I have seen - has cracked at the edges where
the folded-under section begins.

In message <[email hidden]>, Simon
Brooke <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Bear in mind, though, that Brooks saddles, while (if they fit you)
exceedingly comfortable, are also exceedingly heavy. two years ago I had
Brooks Professionals on all my bikes; now I have Selle Italia SLRs, which
I personally find equally comfortable and which has saved 500 grammes per
bike.

The Swift ain't so heavy. I have a Professional on one cycle and a Swift
on t'other. The Professional is dead comfy but if a bit of a lump. The
Swift is significantly lighter as it uses titanium rails and appears to
use a lighter grade of leather.

I like both but I have doubts about the longevity of the Swift because
of the more pliant leather. I've only had it a year and it moulded to me
more in that time than the Professional I've used for the last 8 years.
--
Bob Downie
Devotee of the wheel
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

Quoted message said:

Can't speak to the Swift-Swallow differences since I only own the
Brooks Swift. And Brooks Professional. And Brooks B17. Swift is on
the racing bike. Racing style bike. It is definitely narrower than
the Professional. Professional is on the brevet, long distance
bikes. Swift is fine for me up to 150 miles. Around that point I
prefer the wider Professional. Professional has been fine for me up
to 311 miles. Haven't ridden more than 311 at one time but I suspect
the Professional will be fine for longer. I plan to ride further than
311 at one go this year. Not much mileage on the B17 so can't comment
on how far its good for.

For more than 300 miles, I'd need a Brooks Gulp.

Bill "slow afternoon" S.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew Price said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

The width of the saddle should track the riding position.
Wider saddle for more upright position.
--
Michael Press

Andrew Price said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

Minimal in terms of width. Brooks Swift is not on the current price
list, former listings show 152mm wide.

The 2007 Swallow Special Edition lists at 153mm and has a new shape
under-saddle steel clip, sewn edges and a new scalloped titanium tension
bolt in comparison to the 2006 version.

Swift is a traditional cut with 'side flaps' [I made up that term just
now]. Swallows have always been folded under and either rivetted or
rivetted and clamped with several versions over many years.

Let us know your comments if you are able to ride both.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Den 01.04.2007 kl. 19:25 Andrew Price said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

Hello Andrew

I have a qualified opinon on that question: I have been riding brevets
for 4 years on a Swift - among those a P-B-P in 2003. And since march
2006 I have been riding 3000 km on a Swallow, 3000 km on the Swift and
3000 on a Team Profesional - approximately.
My experience of the difference between Swift and Swallow is simple and it
matches the psysical difference between the two saddles. The different
feel is visible and measurable:

The difference is, that the Swift has at bigger (ie longer) section that
support the sitbones. That means, that the Swift allows you to slide back
and forth approximately 1.5 cm and still have full support of you
sitbones. When I ride brevets (which are 200+ km) my aching back will
sometimes appreciate af slight change of sitting position. If you prefer
the saddle to offer you one right position, Swallow is there for you.

Apart from that, the two saddles feel the same, and they weigh the same
(while the Team Professional feels interely different.)

I am very fond of my three Brooks saddles, and I am planning to buy
another one - a B17 I think - for my fourth bike. But if I had to choose
between them, I would prefer the Swift.

Ivar

Andrew Price said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

My new (as yet untested) Swift has a skirt (side flap) reaching almost
down to the saddle rails at the lowest point, but staying well clear of
the saddle rails for most of its length. The pictures I've seen of the
Swallow suggest that it has almost no skirt to speak of, and the leather
remains well clear of the rails for most of the length. The reduced
amount of leather would seem to account for most of the weight
difference between the Swift and the Swallow. I decided to save a few
bucks, haul a little extra weight around, and keep trying to reduce the
weight of the bike's power source.

mark

Quoted message said:

Hello Andrew

I have a qualified opinon on that question: I have been riding brevets
for 4 years on a Swift - among those a P-B-P in 2003. And since march
2006 I have been riding 3000 km on a Swallow, 3000 km on the Swift and
3000 on a Team Profesional - approximately.
My experience of the difference between Swift and Swallow is simple and it
matches the psysical difference between the two saddles. The different
feel is visible and measurable:

The difference is, that the Swift has at bigger (ie longer) section that
support the sitbones. That means, that the Swift allows you to slide back
and forth approximately 1.5 cm and still have full support of you
sitbones. When I ride brevets (which are 200+ km) my aching back will
sometimes appreciate af slight change of sitting position. If you prefer
the saddle to offer you one right position, Swallow is there for you.

Apart from that, the two saddles feel the same, and they weigh the same
(while the Team Professional feels interely different.)

I am very fond of my three Brooks saddles, and I am planning to buy
another one - a B17 I think - for my fourth bike. But if I had to choose
between them, I would prefer the Swift.

Ivar

-------------
Having rode in brevets myself, and having my share of saddle sores, I'm
a recent convert to a Brooks B-17 and love the feel of the saddle, even
though there is a sizable weight penalty. But with all the other [censored] you
have to bring with you, it doesn't seem so bad, considering the pain saddle
sores cause. But here is my question on Brooks saddles. How do you deal
with them if you have ride in rain. I thought that Brooks saddles shouldn't
get wet, but as you know in long distance, it's impossible to avoid rain
sometimes when you are out there so long.

Callistus Valerius said:

Quoted message said:

Hello Andrew

Quoted message said:

I have a qualified opinon on that question: I have been riding brevets
for 4 years on a Swift - among those a P-B-P in 2003. And since march
2006 I have been riding 3000 km on a Swallow, 3000 km on the Swift and
3000 on a Team Profesional - approximately.
My experience of the difference between Swift and Swallow is simple and it
matches the psysical difference between the two saddles. The different
feel is visible and measurable:

Quoted message said:

The difference is, that the Swift has at bigger (ie longer) section that
support the sitbones. That means, that the Swift allows you to slide back
and forth approximately 1.5 cm and still have full support of you
sitbones. When I ride brevets (which are 200+ km) my aching back will
sometimes appreciate af slight change of sitting position. If you prefer
the saddle to offer you one right position, Swallow is there for you.

Quoted message said:

Apart from that, the two saddles feel the same, and they weigh the same
(while the Team Professional feels interely different.)

Quoted message said:

I am very fond of my three Brooks saddles, and I am planning to buy
another one - a B17 I think - for my fourth bike. But if I had to choose
between them, I would prefer the Swift.

Quoted message said:

Ivar

-------------
Having rode in brevets myself, and having my share of saddle sores, I'm
a recent convert to a Brooks B-17 and love the feel of the saddle, even
though there is a sizable weight penalty. But with all the other [censored] you
have to bring with you, it doesn't seem so bad, considering the pain saddle
sores cause. But here is my question on Brooks saddles. How do you deal
with them if you have ride in rain. I thought that Brooks saddles shouldn't
get wet, but as you know in long distance, it's impossible to avoid rain
sometimes when you are out there so long.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Use fenders, Proofide the underneath of the saddle and carry plastic
grocery bags as saddle rain covers.

in message <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius (') said:

But here is my question on Brooks saddles. How do you deal
with them if you have ride in rain. I thought that Brooks saddles
shouldn't get wet, but as you know in long distance, it's impossible to
avoid rain sometimes when you are out there so long.

This is frankly rubbish.

I've had a bike which (before my ownership of it) had been left out in the
rain for several years. The Brooks saddle on it restored perfectly well.
They certainly don't benefit from getting too wet too often, and if wet
benefit from being dried gently and slowly (e.g. in a cool shed). But it
isn't fatal, and certainly the amount of wetting your saddle is going to
get even in a week's very wet riding isn't going to do it any harm. Dry
out gently, apply a little proofide, and it will be fine.

Do not tighten the tension bolt on a wet saddle, if it has stretched it
will (naturally) shrink as it dries!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a sixteen bit
;; patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a
;; four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that
;; can't stand one bit of competition -- anonymous

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Andrew Price

(') said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Quoted message said:

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

Yup. One may be the width that fits your sitbones, in which case the other
isn't. However, without doing something decidedly personal and intimate,
we can't tell you which.

Bear in mind, though, that Brooks saddles, while (if they fit you)
exceedingly comfortable, are also exceedingly heavy.

Swift is about 380 grams with its titanium rails and nose piece.
Professional is about 580 grams with its steel undercarriage. Modern
plastic torture devices (Flite) are roughly 220 grams. Older plastic
torture devices (Rolls) are roughly 350 grams. Cutting edge (pun
intended) modern carbon torture devices can be 150 grams.

Its worthwhile to save weight in some places. Not worthwhile in other
places. Saddle weight is not a criteria I use for judging it.

two years ago I had

Quoted message said:

Brooks Professionals on all my bikes; now I have Selle Italia SLRs, which
I personally find equally comfortable and which has saved 500 grammes per
bike.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; single speed mountain bikes: for people who cycle on flat mountains.

Quoting Callistus Valerius <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

sores cause. But here is my question on Brooks saddles. How do you deal
with them if you have ride in rain. I thought that Brooks saddles shouldn't
get wet, but as you know in long distance, it's impossible to avoid rain
sometimes when you are out there so long.

Brookses aren't made of sugar - they don't like to get soaking wet, but of
course on a hot day they get plenty of sweat dropped into them. So it's
only necessary to keep most of the rain off, and of course your bottom
does that. I carry a plastic shopping bag (from BookMarks, at the moment,
which makes it nice and bright red) for protecting it when stopped.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is First Olethros, April - a weekend.

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Andrew Price

(') said:

I'm considering buying one of these to replace the uncomfortable Selle
Italia saddle I have on an Orbea racer.

Quoted message said:

Could anyone let me know what the essential difference between the
Swift and the Swallow is? All I can see is that one is very
marginally wider than the other (155mm instead of 152mm).

Yup. One may be the width that fits your sitbones, in which case the
other isn't. However, without doing something decidedly personal and
intimate, we can't tell you which.

Bear in mind, though, that Brooks saddles, while (if they fit you)
exceedingly comfortable, are also exceedingly heavy.

Swift is about 380 grams with its titanium rails and nose piece.
Professional is about 580 grams with its steel undercarriage. Modern
plastic torture devices (Flite) are roughly 220 grams. Older plastic
torture devices (Rolls) are roughly 350 grams. Cutting edge (pun
intended) modern carbon torture devices can be 150 grams.

And a Selle Italia SLR, which looks like a torture device but isn't, weighs
135 grammes (standard model) down to 76 grammes for the C64 model (which I
haven't tried and suspect may be a torture device.

Quoted message said:

Its worthwhile to save weight in some places. Not worthwhile in other
places. Saddle weight is not a criteria I use for judging it.

If two saddles are equally comfortable, pick the lighter. Mind you, one
problem I have noticed since switching from Brooks to Selle Italia -
Brooks saddles are exceedingly kind to your shorts; I'm wearing out shorts
quicker on the new saddles.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; First they came for the asylum seekers,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not an asylum seeker.
;; Then they came for the gypsies,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not a gypsy...
;; Pastor Martin Niemöller, translated by Michael Howard.

Simon Brooke said:

Yup. One may be the width that fits your sitbones, in which case the other
isn't.

Thanks, Simon. Yes, the width which fits is important (in this case,
both should be OK for me) although I wouldn't have though that the 3mm
difference between the Swift and the Swallow would be anywhere near as
noticeable as, say, the difference between the B17 I had on a hybrid,
and the B17N, with which I successfully replaced it.

Quoted message said:

However, without doing something decidedly personal and intimate,
we can't tell you which.

That too - I am also aware that the trial and error/hit or miss factor
is very important, and varies considerably from person to person.

Quoted message said:

Bear in mind, though, that Brooks saddles, while (if they fit you)
exceedingly comfortable, are also exceedingly heavy.

That's a trade-off with which I haven't really come to terms. I
put a B17N and a Conquest on two other bikes without a moment's
hesitation, but the Orbea is a racer.

Quoted message said:

two years ago I had
Brooks Professionals on all my bikes; now I have Selle Italia SLRs, which
I personally find equally comfortable and which has saved 500 grammes per
bike.

The Selle Italia which my racer came ("XR Trans Am"😉 isn't listed on
the current SI web-site, so I wonder if it was not a model made
specifically to Orbea specifications. I'd like to keep it, but
regretfully, it is not comfortable for me.

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 01:18:24 +0200, "Ivar Hesselager"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

Apart from that, the two saddles feel the same, and they weigh the same
(while the Team Professional feels interely different.)

In what way did you find it different to the Swift and the Swallow -
comfort or merely the effect of its considerable extra weight?

Quoted message said:

I am very fond of my three Brooks saddles, and I am planning to buy
another one - a B17 I think - for my fourth bike. But if I had to choose
between them, I would prefer the Swift.

Many thanks, Ivan, for an extremely detailed response, and to everyone
else who provided some feedback.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius (') said:

But here is my question on Brooks saddles. How do you deal
with them if you have ride in rain. I thought that Brooks saddles
shouldn't get wet, but as you know in long distance, it's impossible to
avoid rain sometimes when you are out there so long.

This is frankly rubbish.

I've had a bike which (before my ownership of it) had been left out in the
rain for several years. The Brooks saddle on it restored perfectly well.
They certainly don't benefit from getting too wet too often, and if wet
benefit from being dried gently and slowly (e.g. in a cool shed). But it
isn't fatal, and certainly the amount of wetting your saddle is going to
get even in a week's very wet riding isn't going to do it any harm. Dry
out gently, apply a little proofide, and it will be fine.

Do not tighten the tension bolt on a wet saddle, if it has stretched it
will (naturally) shrink as it dries!

And to add to this, leather saddles get plenty wet from sweat when you
cycle on them. The fact that they absorb this is one of their good
features. Leather is quite capable of dealing with rain, just don't
make it any worse than it has to be.

Pete

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 17:05:29 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

Swift is a traditional cut with 'side flaps' [I made up that term just
now]. Swallows have always been folded under and either rivetted or
rivetted and clamped with several versions over many years.

Let us know your comments if you are able to ride both.

Thanks, I will. I'm a happy user of Brooks saddles on other bikes
(B17N, Conquest) but as you might have seen from my response to Simon,
I'm still considering the trade-off of the extra weight. And still
surprised that the Selle Italia is so damned uncomfortable!