Battery/lighting philosophy for fully-loaded touring?

Bruce W.1 said:

I built two lighting systems for my fully-loaded touring bicycle.
One is 12 VDC. It has a [13-Watt] HID headlight and a strobe & LED tail
light (which pulls 300 mA). It is configured to be powered by 12 C-cell
batteries. Or I could easily switch to lithium-ion batteries.

Quoted message said:

The other system runs on a few AA batteries. The headlight has a 3 Watt
Cree LED (which can also run off of 12V with the pulse width modulator I
attached) and the tailight is a Cateye LED thingy.

Quoted message said:

I also have a bell and a 12VDC scooter horn, but never mind that.

-snip-
I'm not an EE but wouldn't twelve cells output a nominal 18V?
(p.s. I'm ignoring your bell & scooter horn even as we speak. Thanks for
not mentioning them)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I built two lighting systems for my fully-loaded touring bicycle.

Probably not the answer you are asking for, but I would recommend a hub
generator system.

I am assuming that because you are asking about "fully-loaded" touring, you
plan to be camping some and not staying at a place with electricity every
night. I think you will find charging a battery for a lighting system
problematic. Likewise, constantly replacing batteries could be a hassle but
every choice has trade offs.

I prefer a Schmidt hub dynamo with a B&M primary headlight (with LED
standlight), a secondary Schimdt headlight, and a B&M tailight (also with
standlight) . I use the system predominately for commuting but also for
fully-loaded touring. I have not done multi-week trips but plan to do so.
I find the system more than adequately bright and trouble free. I've also
used a Shimano Nexus hub generator. It's almost as good as the Schmidt SON
and much less expensive. I must admit I splurged for my custom frame,
Rohloff hub, commuting/touring bike.

I've looked for a "self-contained" charging system for touring and haven't
found anything that looks very good to me. I have been mainly interested in
something to charge a notebook computer without having to plug into "the
grid". Some people use a roll-up solar panel but I've read it's hard to
keep a notebook charged this way while touring. I thought it might be
possible to use a hub generator to charge a notebook computer and/or cell
phone. I've seen designs for home made electronic systems to do this but
they look large and complicated and all I've seen employ a system with
batteries as well. Although I obtained a degree in electrical engineering
30 years ago, subsequently, I took an entirely different career path and it
is way beyond my ability to design such a system now.

Anybody know how to construct or buy a small, lightweight system to connect
to a hub generator to regulate voltage/current to lights, and charge a
notebook computer and/or cell phone without adding another bank of
batteries?

BobT

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bruce W.1 said:

I'd like to hear from experienced fully-loaded touring riders on what
they use and why. Which system would you use? What do you use?

Your focus on power packs/consumption is misguided, especially when you
consider some C cells don't even have the same capacity as some AA
cells. Rebuild your system(s) from the ground up with a focus on the
light output.

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A Muzi said:

-snip-
I'm not an EE but wouldn't twelve cells output a nominal 18V?
(p.s. I'm ignoring your bell & scooter horn even as we speak. Thanks for
not mentioning them)

=====================================================

Indeed, for the first ten minutes I will use ten cells, at which time
the voltage drops enough to kick-in the remaining two. This way I use
every bit of energy that the batteries have to offer, about 0.85 V per
cell, yet keep a good running voltage for the lights.

Doc O'Leary said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bruce W.1 said:

I'd like to hear from experienced fully-loaded touring riders on what
they use and why. Which system would you use? What do you use?

Your focus on power packs/consumption is misguided, especially when you
consider some C cells don't even have the same capacity as some AA
cells. Rebuild your system(s) from the ground up with a focus on the
light output.

===============================================

The HID headlight is the answer to light output.

Bruce W.1 said:

I built two lighting systems for my fully-loaded touring bicycle.

One is 12 VDC. It has a [13-Watt] HID headlight and a strobe & LED tail
light (which pulls 300 mA). It is configured to be powered by 12 C-cell
batteries. Or I could easily switch to lithium-ion batteries.

The other system runs on a few AA batteries. The headlight has a 3 Watt
Cree LED (which can also run off of 12V with the pulse width modulator I
attached) and the tailight is a Cateye LED thingy.

I also have a bell and a 12VDC scooter horn, but never mind that.

I'm torn between high-power and low-power. I don't yet have any
experience doing fully-loaded touring.

If in traffic with streetlights I would definitely want to use the 12V
system. On a bike trail the AA system would work fine.

I don't really intend to do any night riding but who knows. If it's a
beautiful evening I might. The main purpose for the lights is if my
plan got screwed-up and I found myself riding at night, emergency lighting.

I don't mind carrying the weight of the 12V lights but the weight of the
C-cell battery pack is a real bummer (3-3/4 lbs.). If I switched to
lithium-ion batteries then after they were used I'd be forced to stay in
a hotel the following night in order to recharge them, which might also
be a bummer.

The low-volt AA system in traffic with streetlights is little more than
a "be-seen" system, barely. It is comparable to a hub dynamo system.

I'd like to hear from experienced fully-loaded touring riders on what
they use and why. Which system would you use? What do you use?

As BobT says, you won't like this answer, but you've gone off in the
wrong direction. At least, if your concept of fully-loaded touring is
anything like mine.

Yes, you need lights. You'll probably use them relatively rarely (8
hours of riding is plenty, plenty on a long tour). But if its getting
dark and you're not "there" yet, you need to be able to see the road.
And you don't want to make my once-only mistake and have a battery
light that dies out.

So you need a setup that lights the road well, is ready whenever you
need it, won't die out if not recharged, works even if you've used
primitive camps for several days, and gives light as long as you need
it. And you want it to be as reliable as a hammer. It's also nice to
have something that doesn't weigh too much.

It's not going to be a rechargeable, pulse-width solar collector rig
driving an HID light. Hell, three days of rain will leave you in the
dark. You need a generator light.

Hub generators are elegant and efficient. But I've done thousands and
thousands of miles with other types - usually, bottom bracket
generators. Zero drag when off, negligible weight, negligible volume,
almost perfect reliability, fine road lighting, etc.

And it's _so_ much simpler.

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce W.1 said:

I built two lighting systems for my fully-loaded touring bicycle.

One is 12 VDC. It has a [13-Watt] HID headlight and a strobe & LED tail
light (which pulls 300 mA). It is configured to be powered by 12 C-cell
batteries. Or I could easily switch to lithium-ion batteries.

The other system runs on a few AA batteries. The headlight has a 3 Watt
Cree LED (which can also run off of 12V with the pulse width modulator I
attached) and the tailight is a Cateye LED thingy.

I also have a bell and a 12VDC scooter horn, but never mind that.

I'm torn between high-power and low-power. I don't yet have any
experience doing fully-loaded touring.

If in traffic with streetlights I would definitely want to use the 12V
system. On a bike trail the AA system would work fine.

I don't really intend to do any night riding but who knows. If it's a
beautiful evening I might. The main purpose for the lights is if my
plan got screwed-up and I found myself riding at night, emergency
lighting.

I don't mind carrying the weight of the 12V lights but the weight of the
C-cell battery pack is a real bummer (3-3/4 lbs.). If I switched to
lithium-ion batteries then after they were used I'd be forced to stay in
a hotel the following night in order to recharge them, which might also
be a bummer.

The low-volt AA system in traffic with streetlights is little more than
a "be-seen" system, barely. It is comparable to a hub dynamo system.

I'd like to hear from experienced fully-loaded touring riders on what
they use and why. Which system would you use? What do you use?

As BobT says, you won't like this answer, but you've gone off in the
wrong direction. At least, if your concept of fully-loaded touring is
anything like mine.

Yes, you need lights. You'll probably use them relatively rarely (8
hours of riding is plenty, plenty on a long tour). But if its getting
dark and you're not "there" yet, you need to be able to see the road.
And you don't want to make my once-only mistake and have a battery
light that dies out.

So you need a setup that lights the road well, is ready whenever you
need it, won't die out if not recharged, works even if you've used
primitive camps for several days, and gives light as long as you need
it. And you want it to be as reliable as a hammer. It's also nice to
have something that doesn't weigh too much.

It's not going to be a rechargeable, pulse-width solar collector rig
driving an HID light. Hell, three days of rain will leave you in the
dark. You need a generator light.

Hub generators are elegant and efficient. But I've done thousands and
thousands of miles with other types - usually, bottom bracket
generators. Zero drag when off, negligible weight, negligible volume,
almost perfect reliability, fine road lighting, etc.

And it's _so_ much simpler.

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, I think that a generator light makes sense for the OP. But rather than
a hub generator, I'd consider a bottle generator and ride aSchwalbe tires
with a generator strip and refelctive sidewalls.
I use the Busch Mueller S-6 bottle generator, and the Schmidt and Shimano
generator hubs. If it will be used only rarely the bottle generator makes
the most sense I think. Also consider carrying a tiny cate-eye light as a
back up headlight.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

BobT said:

Anybody know how to construct or buy a small, lightweight system to connect
to a hub generator to regulate voltage/current to lights, and charge a
notebook computer and/or cell phone without adding another bank of
batteries?

If you use a 12V generator, it should be easy enough to adapt a 12V "auto"
cell phone charger. You'll have to make an AC-DC conversion, but other
than that you're good to go.

Modern phones use so little power that by turning them off when they're
not needed, you should be able to go for weeks.

Laptops use too much power for a bicycle. Mine draws 6A on from a
12V socket. Generator hubs probably put out no more than 0.5A.

Matt O.

Bruce W.1 said:

I built two lighting systems for my fully-loaded touring bicycle.

One is 12 VDC. It has a [13-Watt] HID headlight and a strobe & LED tail
light (which pulls 300 mA). It is configured to be powered by 12 C-cell
batteries. Or I could easily switch to lithium-ion batteries.

The other system runs on a few AA batteries. The headlight has a 3 Watt
Cree LED (which can also run off of 12V with the pulse width modulator I
attached) and the tailight is a Cateye LED thingy.

I also have a bell and a 12VDC scooter horn, but never mind that.

I'm torn between high-power and low-power. I don't yet have any
experience doing fully-loaded touring.

If in traffic with streetlights I would definitely want to use the 12V
system. On a bike trail the AA system would work fine.

I don't really intend to do any night riding but who knows. If it's a
beautiful evening I might. The main purpose for the lights is if my
plan got screwed-up and I found myself riding at night, emergency lighting.

I don't mind carrying the weight of the 12V lights but the weight of the
C-cell battery pack is a real bummer (3-3/4 lbs.). If I switched to
lithium-ion batteries then after they were used I'd be forced to stay in
a hotel the following night in order to recharge them, which might also
be a bummer.

The low-volt AA system in traffic with streetlights is little more than
a "be-seen" system, barely. It is comparable to a hub dynamo system.

I'd like to hear from experienced fully-loaded touring riders on what
they use and why. Which system would you use? What do you use?

Thanks for your help.

Confused

On all of my loaded tours, I never rode at night. I did carry a
flashlight for finding stuff after stopping for the night. In the
summer there is light from roughly 7 AM until 8 PM. 13 or so hours.
Plenty of time to ride the distance you want to travel. Remember
loaded tours are vacations. No one is forced to ride them.
Therefore, you have the choice to ride a sensible distance each day.
No reason to ride century plus days. Enjoy the tour by riding fewer
miles and stopping to see and experience things. Plan to get into
your overnight spot before supper time and setup camp and then enjoy
supper. And enjoy the remaining evening light.

As for something forcing you to ride in the dark, bull. You are on a
loaded tour. If you are camping, you can stop and setup camp
anywhere. That is the point of carrying camping gear. Or if staying
in motels, just stop earlier if mechanical problems develop that may
cause you to ride in the dark. I doubt your life will be forfeited if
you do not follow your daily mileage plan.

As for lights, equip all of your bikes with red blinky lights. Two or
more. You will likely ride in fog or very cloudy or rainy
conditions. Red blinky lights allow you to be seen in these
conditions. You can still see the road just fine without headlights
in these conditions. If you want a headlight, carry an easily
attached battery model that can also function as your flashlight after
setting up camp. It will be used about 100% of the time as a
flashlight.

Bruce W.1 said:

I'd like to hear from experienced fully-loaded touring riders on what
they use and why. Which system would you use? What do you use?

Unless you are going for some sort of distance/time record, I can't
imagine why you'd want to spend a great deal of time riding at night
while on a tour. For me, a tour is supposed to be a vacation, not an
endurance test.

So, while you will need to have a light if you need to get 20 more miles
and the sun is going down, you don't need a system to run all night, nor
one that lights up the whole block. When I tour, I use the light to
enable me to get past that stretch of nothing to the next town, and to
go from my hotel/campsite to a restaurant or whatever. For that, the
smaller system will be fine.

--

David L. Johnson

If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach
a conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw

Quoted message said:

As BobT says, you won't like this answer, but you've gone off in the
wrong direction. At least, if your concept of fully-loaded touring is
anything like mine.

Yes, you need lights. You'll probably use them relatively rarely (8
hours of riding is plenty, plenty on a long tour). But if its getting
dark and you're not "there" yet, you need to be able to see the road.
And you don't want to make my once-only mistake and have a battery
light that dies out.

So you need a setup that lights the road well, is ready whenever you
need it, won't die out if not recharged, works even if you've used
primitive camps for several days, and gives light as long as you need
it. And you want it to be as reliable as a hammer. It's also nice to
have something that doesn't weigh too much.

It's not going to be a rechargeable, pulse-width solar collector rig
driving an HID light. Hell, three days of rain will leave you in the
dark. You need a generator light.

Hub generators are elegant and efficient. But I've done thousands and
thousands of miles with other types - usually, bottom bracket
generators. Zero drag when off, negligible weight, negligible volume,
almost perfect reliability, fine road lighting, etc.

And it's _so_ much simpler.

- Frank Krygowski

==========================================================

A bottom bracket generator? I've never heard of such a thing. Can you
give me a link or name?

Thanks.

well, if camping: camp. never ride at night. camp. plan ahead. if the
tire blows out, shock cord jams the deray. camp. struggling on ... who
needs it. pull over and camp. leave early.
but if the day's trip is complete during twilight then a light light
system is in order. low weight. blinking lights front and rear.
another can of beans you need? right?
generators are expensive, tradeable, and stealable. four or five
blinkies and a 4 AA cateye slip into poly bags, store and weigh zip. i
carry 3 in the day backpack and 2/10 use the lights at twilight on
pack, yellows on front bar.
if cafe touring, the same applies but take more AA lights/lamps and
don't forget the mace.

Bruce W.1 said:

A bottom bracket generator? I've never heard of such a thing. Can you
give me a link or name?

My experience was that they didn't last all that long, which wasn't
surprising given the enormous amount of wheelspray they have to put up
with. You'll need a smooth tyre or at very least one with a centerrib.
And they interfere with wheelremoval, and can be difficult to fit if you
also want a kickstand behind the BB

picture: http://tandem-fahren.de/Technik/Dynamo/index.html#Union8601

(disclaimer: I like SON's so I sell them)
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

on planning: see, for example, sierra clubs manual for florida at
amazon.com or world catalog. then track out thru google maps or
streets trips. GPS and on trip do average speed. (and we're almost at
the time where garmin/magellan will offer on bar noaa radar), but
before you go: average your speeds with load on various surfaces, up
wind and down, with the cyclometer.
oh yeah. florida's camping areas in terms of traveling distances not
camp hopping (all relatively legit) are 75 miles apart. &^%**!!

onemoah- bring a yellow/dayglo orange baseball cap, wal or campmor.com
for oncoming lights. essential survival equipment. try shooter's
yellow glasses or clip on's, possibly cut in half!! see yorktowne
optical in emigsville. the brown's are outasight.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bruce W.1 said:

The HID headlight is the answer to light output.

You have made the mistake of confusing a lighting technology with a
lumen rating.

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My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com,
heapnode.com, localhost, x-privat.org

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As BobT says, you won't like this answer, but you've gone off in the
wrong direction. At least, if your concept of fully-loaded touring is
anything like mine.

Yes, you need lights. You'll probably use them relatively rarely (8
hours of riding is plenty, plenty on a long tour). But if its getting
dark and you're not "there" yet, you need to be able to see the road.
And you don't want to make my once-only mistake and have a battery
light that dies out.

So you need a setup that lights the road well, is ready whenever you
need it, won't die out if not recharged, works even if you've used
primitive camps for several days, and gives light as long as you need
it. And you want it to be as reliable as a hammer. It's also nice to
have something that doesn't weigh too much.

It's not going to be a rechargeable, pulse-width solar collector rig
driving an HID light. Hell, three days of rain will leave you in the
dark. You need a generator light.

Hub generators are elegant and efficient. But I've done thousands and
thousands of miles with other types - usually, bottom bracket
generators. Zero drag when off, negligible weight, negligible volume,
almost perfect reliability, fine road lighting, etc.

And it's _so_ much simpler.

Bruce W.1 said:

A bottom bracket generator? I've never heard of such a thing. Can you
give me a link or name?

No news here, they have been around forever, about 20% of our dynamos:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/dynamos.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

M-gineering said:

Bruce W.1 said:

A bottom bracket generator? I've never heard of such a thing. Can you
give me a link or name?

Quoted message said:

picture:http://tandem-fahren.de/Technik/Dynamo/index.html#Union8601

or http://www.yellowjersey.org/dynamos.html

The term refers to a generator that fits behind the bottom bracket.
They're also called roller dynamos. The roller rotates parallel to
the wheel, and is driven by the same section of tire tread that
touches the pavement.

Quoted message said:

My experience was that they didn't last all that long, which wasn't
surprising given the enormous amount of wheelspray they have to put up
with. You'll need a smooth tyre or at very least one with a centerrib.
And they interfere with wheelremoval, and can be difficult to fit if you
also want a kickstand behind the BB

Hmm. Well, I don't use a kickstand, so that's a non-issue for me.
But I've never had the least problem with wheel removal.

I've gotten excellent life out of mine. The ones I'm using are
Soubitez brand, and they look identical to the one in Martin's link.
I think all mine are 1980s vintage, and they just keep running and
running.

I like them better than the more common bottle style partly because
they're more out-of-the-way, and (at least compared to my Union bottle
unit) have less drag. They're also quieter. And if I want, I can
drive two headlamps with it without the roller slipping from the
higher load. (That's due to its larger diameter than a bottle's
roller wheel.)

One disadvantage is that it works poorly on muddy paths. It picks up
mud and slips. But on paved roads, I think it's great.

Quoted message said:

(disclaimer: I like SON's so I sell them)

I like those too. Elegant! But so far, I haven't convinced myself to
spend the money for one.

- Frank Krygowski

email hidden said:

On all of my loaded tours, I never rode at night.

I often do! It's not normally to put in maximum miles. Instead, it's
things like riding back from a restaurant, or riding to a distant
campground restroom. To me, it's just so handy to have a decent
light. I'd hate to be without one with my car or motorcycle. I like
it just as well on my bike.

Quoted message said:

summer there is light from roughly 7 AM until 8 PM. 13 or so hours.
Plenty of time to ride the distance you want to travel. Remember
loaded tours are vacations. No one is forced to ride them.
Therefore, you have the choice to ride a sensible distance each day.

But there are times I've picked an objective, and wanted to get
there. Here's an example: As a kid, there was a certain state
highway near my house. I often looked at it disappearing over a hill
in the distance, and wondered where it went - where it ended.

One year, as an adult, I sat with a map and realized it really did
end, about 80 miles distant, and that there was a state park near its
end. I figured riding it "all the way" would make a nice tour.

And it did make a very pretty tour indeed, on the Saturday that I set
out to ride it. Except that after 40 miles the road became so
extremely hilly that I was a lot slower than I planned. I ran out of
daylight at about mile 75. I did take a battery headlight along...
mistaking the strength of its batteries. When it died, I resolved
never again to tour without a generator.

Quoted message said:

As for something forcing you to ride in the dark, bull. You are on a
loaded tour. If you are camping, you can stop and setup camp
anywhere. That is the point of carrying camping gear. Or if staying
in motels, just stop earlier if mechanical problems develop that may
cause you to ride in the dark.

My life seems to be a little more chaotic than yours!

- Frank Krygowski