rear view helmet mirrors

Quoted message said:

are world class racers wearing rear view mirrors?
if not why?
watching the tour de georgia, seems many were wasting energy and speed
looking backward

they'd look too dorky...like I do.

also, maybe they're not "aero"?

Quoted message said:

Are world class racers wearing rear view mirrors, and if not why
not? Watching the Tour de Georgia, seems many were wasting energy
and speed looking backward.

In California you'll fail the driving test if you don't look back when
changing lanes. The reason is that even with three mirrors in the
car, there is still a blind spot that can best be viewed by looking
back. The same goes for bicycling. The primary reason for rearview
mirrors in bicycling is to allay the fears of paranoids, not to see
whether it is safe to move into a lane for a left turn or the like.

I doubt that a racer would risk crashing a fellow racer by relying on
a rear view mirror, one attached to the head one way or another, while
making a maneuver in a pack. Beyond that, the information gained by
skewing one eye to look into that mirror is like trying to read this
screen with ones head facing 45° to one side.

Jobst Brandt

In California you'll fail the driving test if you don't look back when
changing lanes. The reason is that even with three mirrors in the
car, there is still a blind spot that can best be viewed by looking
back. The same goes for bicycling. The primary reason for rearview
mirrors in bicycling is to allay the fears of paranoids, not to see
whether it is safe to move into a lane for a left turn or the like.

I doubt that a racer would risk crashing a fellow racer by relying on
a rear view mirror, one attached to the head one way or another, while
making a maneuver in a pack. Beyond that, the information gained by
skewing one eye to look into that mirror is like trying to read this
screen with ones head facing 45° to one side.

Jobst Brandt
--------------

Being an endurance rider (doing rides 200+ miles), I've noticed most, not
all of us, endurance riders use mirros of some sort. I use a mirror on the
end of my handlebar. They are no substitue for looking back when changing
lanes in traffic, but they do have other purposes. One is the ability to
ride in the road, instead of being crunched on the side (my definition of
paranoid), because I can quickly scan traffic flow, and it really can save
your tires. I use what I hear as my main indicator of what's happening
behind me, but sometimes wind can take that radar away, and then I go back
to the mirror. I notice I can make moves earlier, and you can use the road
more efficiently. When you're doing more than 200 miles, you don't want to
waste energy doing the racers neck twitch, when a simple glance into the
mirror tells you the story. I did try the helmet mirror, and did find it
took my eyes off what was in front, which is more important, but I really
didn't give it that much time to figure it out. So the handlebar end
mirror, isn't any more distracting than using the side mirror in a truck.
But it probably hurts on aerodynamics, which is usually a minor problem in
endurance rides.

the mirror turns 360 on the stalk's ball joint.
if you turn the mirror to the down toward's the road position
then rotate the mirror 90 degrees up and in toward your nose
and then adjust the stalk's swing in or out away from the nose/face
you should see rearward without twitching your eyes.

Quoted post said:

are world class racers wearing rear view mirrors?
if not why?
watching the tour de georgia, seems many were wasting energy and speed
looking backward

FWIW, I see a group of club riders around here every now and again
that all have oval mirrors hanging from the tops of their drops. They
always ride in a nice neat peloton and are very cordial fellows. I saw
the mirror once when trawling the internet, but neglected to bookmark
it. Seemed like a smart and not too fugly design.

jobst.brandt said:

The primary reason for rearview
mirrors in bicycling is to allay the fears of paranoids, not to see
whether it is safe to move into a lane for a left turn or the like.

I doubt that a racer would risk crashing a fellow racer by relying on
a rear view mirror, one attached to the head one way or another, while
making a maneuver in a pack. Beyond that, the information gained by
skewing one eye to look into that mirror is like trying to read this
screen with ones head facing 45° to one side.

Mr Brandt. I usually respect your opinion but I think that you have no
understanding of what you are talking about in this case. Auto blindspots
are the result of the posts and pillars of the cage and body of the
vehicle; not an issue on any bike I have ridden.

Not being any sort of wonder optically both glasses and helmet mounted
mirrors easily provide me as much rear view information with a slight head
turn as does wrenching my neck to each side.

would I depend on a mirror in a peloton? No distances are too fine. For
general trail and traffic they are great tools.

Bran

Quoted message said:

In California you'll fail the driving test if you don't look back when
changing lanes. The reason is that even with three mirrors in the
car, there is still a blind spot that can best be viewed by looking
back.

It's possible to set up your mirrors so there is no blind spot, if you
use all three. Set the side mirrors of your car very wide, so much so
that you can't see the sides of the car, and have to tilt your head
toward the side (left or right) if you want' to see the side of the
car.

--
JT
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In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

changing lanes. The reason is that even with three mirrors in the
car, there is still a blind spot that can best be viewed by looking
back.

Actually, properly adjusted side mirrors should eliminate blind spots.
That's what side mirrors are for. It works like this:

--When a trailing vehicle is fully in your rearview mirror, it is safe
to change lanes

--As the vehicle begins to pass you (or you begin to pass it), it will
begin to leave the field of your rearview mirror. If your side mirrors
are properly adjusted, it will begin to come into view in the side
mirror. When the vehicle is partially or completely out of view of the
rear view mirror, it is UNSAFE to change lanes.

--As the passing vehicle continues to overtake you, it will begin to
leave the view of the side mirror, if it is properly adjusted, and
become visible to your peripheral vision.

Yes, it does work and anyone who thinks about it should realize that
head checks don't work well for things like windowless vans or vehicles
that sit high like SUV's. The best way to make and test these
adjustments are on multi-lane roads where it is easy to overtake other
vehicles and observe as they are overtaking you. It is much safer than
craning one's neck to an awkward position and not looking where you are
going.

Quoted message said:

In a race, one would think that the ability to see (nearly) everything
behind while also seeing in front would be an advantage - either when
attacking or defending.

Have you raced bikes?

Quoted message said:

I suspect racers don't use it because they
haven't tried it.

I have. I don't use it anymore. I suspect most racers don't use it
because they don't think it'll help much.
--
JT
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are world class racers wearing rear view mirrors, and if not why
not? Watching the Tour de Georgia, seems many were wasting energy
and speed looking backward.

In California you'll fail the driving test if you don't look back when
changing lanes. The reason is that even with three mirrors in the
car, there is still a blind spot that can best be viewed by looking
back. The same goes for bicycling.

Not entirely true. With a head mounted mirror (helmet glasses, etc)
the rearward field of view is readily adjusted with slight head
movements and there are no obstructions such as roof pillars to create
blind spots. If the mirror is mounted on the left side (best for
seeing traffic approaching from the rear) there IS a blind spot behind
and to the right of the rider. However just because a rider is
wearing a mirror does not preclude him/her from looking there WITHOUT
using the mirror.

Quoted message said:

The primary reason for rearview
mirrors in bicycling is to allay the fears of paranoids, not to see
whether it is safe to move into a lane for a left turn or the like.

Wrong again. The primary reason for rearview mirrors is to be able to
see to the rear without having to turn ones head. In fact they have
the benefit of being able to see to the rear while the view to the
front is still within one's peripheral vision.

Quoted message said:

I doubt that a racer would risk crashing a fellow racer by relying on
a rear view mirror, one attached to the head one way or another, while
making a maneuver in a pack.

And that is why any user of a mirror will generally use it in
conjunction with other methods of gathering information (including
sound). Just curious, do cars in Califronia still have rearview
mirrors depsite the State's recognition that they are useless for lane
changing? Or do such mirrors, perhaps, have some other utility?

Beyond that, the information gained by

Quoted message said:

skewing one eye to look into that mirror is like trying to read this
screen with ones head facing 45° to one side.

Why do you make such silly straw arguments? You are describing a
POORLY ADJUSTED mirror orientation.

To quote myself from a thread a few years ago:
I know more "serious" riders who do not use mirrors than those who do.
But speaking only for myself, I first tried one of one of these:
http://www.cycleaware.com/products/viewpoint.php
a few years ago. I 've been using it ever since and wouldn't be caught
riding without it. Once positioned properly it works extremely well. I
like the fact that my view to the rear can be adjusted by head
movement and have found this particular item to be much less
distracting than I found in my very brief and unsatisfactory
experiments with external glasses-mounted mirrors. It may not work
well with glasses which fit tight to the face or with long hair (over
the ears) which may block the view to the rear. It's unobtrusive and
invisible if "geekiness" is a concern.
But for the functional usefulness of a mirror, fashion should really
not be a factor in the equation.

DR

On Apr 23, 9:15 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In a race, one would think that the ability to see (nearly) everything
behind while also seeing in front would be an advantage - either when
attacking or defending.

I agree. For exmple it's easy to keep an eye on someone on your wheel,
regardless of whether the goal is to keep them or shed them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect racers don't use it because they
haven't tried it.

I have. I don't use it anymore. I suspect most racers don't use it
because they don't think it'll help much.

And, I would bet, most don't think it will help much because they
haven't tried it.

DR

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are world class racers wearing rear view mirrors, and if not why
not? Watching the Tour de Georgia, seems many were wasting energy
and speed looking backward.

In California you'll fail the driving test if you don't look back when
changing lanes. The reason is that even with three mirrors in the
car, there is still a blind spot that can best be viewed by looking
back. The same goes for bicycling.

Not entirely true. With a head mounted mirror (helmet glasses, etc)
the rearward field of view is readily adjusted with slight head
movements and there are no obstructions such as roof pillars to create
blind spots. If the mirror is mounted on the left side (best for
seeing traffic approaching from the rear) there IS a blind spot behind
and to the right of the rider. However just because a rider is
wearing a mirror does not preclude him/her from looking there WITHOUT
using the mirror.

Quoted message said:

The primary reason for rearview
mirrors in bicycling is to allay the fears of paranoids, not to see
whether it is safe to move into a lane for a left turn or the like.

Wrong again. The primary reason for rearview mirrors is to be able to
see to the rear without having to turn ones head. In fact they have
the benefit of being able to see to the rear while the view to the
front is still within one's peripheral vision.

Quoted message said:

I doubt that a racer would risk crashing a fellow racer by relying on
a rear view mirror, one attached to the head one way or another, while
making a maneuver in a pack.

And that is why any user of a mirror will generally use it in
conjunction with other methods of gathering information (including
sound). Just curious, do cars in Califronia still have rearview
mirrors depsite the State's recognition that they are useless for lane
changing? Or do such mirrors, perhaps, have some other utility?

Beyond that, the information gained by

Quoted message said:

skewing one eye to look into that mirror is like trying to read this
screen with ones head facing 45° to one side.

Why do you make such silly straw arguments? You are describing a
POORLY ADJUSTED mirror orientation.

To quote myself from a thread a few years ago:
I know more "serious" riders who do not use mirrors than those who do.
But speaking only for myself, I first tried one of one of these:
http://www.cycleaware.com/products/viewpoint.php
a few years ago. I 've been using it ever since and wouldn't be caught
riding without it. Once positioned properly it works extremely well. I
like the fact that my view to the rear can be adjusted by head
movement and have found this particular item to be much less
distracting than I found in my very brief and unsatisfactory
experiments with external glasses-mounted mirrors. It may not work
well with glasses which fit tight to the face or with long hair (over
the ears) which may block the view to the rear. It's unobtrusive and
invisible if "geekiness" is a concern.
But for the functional usefulness of a mirror, fashion should really
not be a factor in the equation.

DR

Contrary to what Jobst said about the CA DL test requiring you to turn
your head, I've taken a number of safe driver classes (read traffic
school) given by CA Highway Patrol Officers who unequivically said that it
was unsafe to turn your head and take your eyes off the road in front to
see what was behind you. Years ago I learned to continously scan all 3
mirrors - unlike some drivers who only use their rearview mirror for
putting on lipstick and have no idea what a turn signal is for.

As far as blind spots, my Ford Taurus has some of the biggest blind spots
on any modern car. There is a zone on both sides by the rear corners that
is hard to see. There are some stupid drivers who must think that they are
drafting in a peloton and sit in those blind spots. I used to rent cars 20
to 30 times a year in my business travels so I got to compare a number of
different US and Japanese makes.

When I learned to drive some cars only had inside rearview mirrors. The
lefthand outside mirror was an extra cost accessory and the righthand
mirror was a luxurery - and no, we didn't have to crank the cars by
hand.... ;-)

Old man Chas.

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Apr 23, 9:15 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In a race, one would think that the ability to see (nearly)

everything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

behind while also seeing in front would be an advantage - either when
attacking or defending.

I agree. For exmple it's easy to keep an eye on someone on your wheel,
regardless of whether the goal is to keep them or shed them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect racers don't use it because they
haven't tried it.

I have. I don't use it anymore. I suspect most racers don't use it
because they don't think it'll help much.

And, I would bet, most don't think it will help much because they
haven't tried it.

DR

You're talking about hammerheads. If some top rider or team did it then
all of the fashionistas would follow suite and you would see ultra
lightweight Ti and carbon mirrors.....

I can usually hear someone on my wheel. A couple of "Crazy Ivans" gets rid
of them fast. ;-)

Chas.

"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Apr 23, 9:15 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On 23 Apr 2007 08:09:57 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

>In a race, one would think that the ability to see (nearly)

everything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>behind while also seeing in front would be an advantage - either when
>attacking or defending.

I agree. For exmple it's easy to keep an eye on someone on your wheel,
regardless of whether the goal is to keep them or shed them.

Quoted message said:

>I suspect racers don't use it because they
>haven't tried it.

I have. I don't use it anymore. I suspect most racers don't use it
because they don't think it'll help much.

And, I would bet, most don't think it will help much because they
haven't tried it.

DR

You're talking about hammerheads. If some top rider or team did it then
all of the fashionistas would follow suite and you would see ultra
lightweight Ti and carbon mirrors.....

I can usually hear someone on my wheel. A couple of "Crazy Ivans" gets rid
of them fast. ;-)
Chas.

If the pro teams started using mirrors, what would they do with all the
domestiques?
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

If the pro teams started using mirrors, what would they do with all
the domestiques?

Keep 'em pretty?

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

If the pro teams started using mirrors, what would they do with all
the domestiques?

Keep 'em pretty?

French maid costumes..... ;-)

Chas.

groove on helmet mounted tv camera with 1/2x5" screen hung of the
lid's front edge

the instructions i gave are from a temple mounted 3rd eye, currently
ductaped and supported with a poly bottle rectangle.straddle cut over
the temple.
helmet designers probabbbly own a drawer filled with mirror/helmet
drawings

i never raced never will but I understand the look/mirror/decision may
be too slow for the more instinctual rider

DirtRoadie said:

On Apr 23, 9:15 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In a race, one would think that the ability to see (nearly) everything
behind while also seeing in front would be an advantage - either when
attacking or defending.

I agree. For exmple it's easy to keep an eye on someone on your wheel,
regardless of whether the goal is to keep them or shed them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect racers don't use it because they
haven't tried it.

I have. I don't use it anymore. I suspect most racers don't use it
because they don't think it'll help much.

And, I would bet, most don't think it will help much because they
haven't tried it.

Are you suggesting that if they tried mirrors they'd use continue to
use them? What evidence do you have for that? Have you raced bikes
with some success (however you want to define it) with a mirror and
found it useful? If not, how can you think that trying mirrors would
result in racers continuing to use them?

Seems to me they're doing something very logical -- looking at best
practice in their field and using that to determine if something is
useful. And most racers in the US have seen people with mirrors, so
may have thought about using them but don't.

--
JT
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Quoted message said:

Seems to me

http://www.google.com/googlepatents/about.html

ooohhhhhh! i gotta have oneadem!

what color? we have blue and sea green today.