Re: Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd

On Apr 26, 4:57 pm, Shane Stanley <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

rooman said:

It is also used by many commuters, who IMO ride too fast (and
seriously)should be using the roadway.

Not just commuters.

Quoted message said:

I daily see commuters and some recreational riders fairly hammering
along this path.

Yep. As it happens, I was riding along the path just the other side of
Ricketts Point on Anzac Day. It was only the second time I'd ridden
along it -- I ride Beach Road regularly, but I was with my wife, who
travels at a somewhat sedate pace.

I was actually thinking how most of the people seemed to be going much
more slowly than normal, or at least there were very few people going at
more than a very leisurely pace. There were lots of family groups with
young kids. Hardly what I'd call bumper to bumper, though.

But it is easy to get up a bit of speed down those dips, and quite a few
people don't seem to have complete control.

I'm very nervous about the exits from the carpark near Ricketts Point --
the bushes next to the path make it very hard for drivers leaving to see
even a slow cyclist coming.

Having said that, I find it hard to think anyone would label the path
unsafe. Yes, it could be safer, but short of ripping out the foreshore,
widening it massively and putting in overpasses and barriers, it's
always going to need some care, and there are always going to be mishaps.

It's a case of riding to the conditions. When riding on shared paths
(and all paths are shared, either by design or otherwise, there's
always going to be joggers, dogs, people who don't know/care etc) you
have to ride within your limits of vision and control.

Quoted message said:

But the one you saw sounds truly awful...

Sure does, but also her fault. She went faster than she could safely
handle under the conditions. All she needed to do was use her brakes
on the descent to keep her speed down (assuming no brake failure
occurred)

Paths are only as safe as the people who choose to use them make them.
Same as the road, really....

In aus.bicycle on 26 Apr 2007 15:13:33 -0700

Bleve said:

Sure does, but also her fault. She went faster than she could safely
handle under the conditions. All she needed to do was use her brakes
on the descent to keep her speed down (assuming no brake failure
occurred)

The key seems to have been the sun in eyes. That should have been a
pointer to slow down.

But the idea that the road ahead is the same as the road right here is
a common cause of crashes. The idea of a bike path suddenly veering
because of an obstacle, or maybe worse not veering, is admittedly not
sensible and so perhaps not predictable to an inexperienced cyclist used
to car-based road design, but then as the "Cycling Facility of the Month"
pages show, it's distressingly common.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on 26 Apr 2007 15:13:33 -0700

Bleve said:

Sure does, but also her fault. She went faster than she could safely
handle under the conditions. All she needed to do was use her brakes
on the descent to keep her speed down (assuming no brake failure
occurred)

The key seems to have been the sun in eyes. That should have been a
pointer to slow down.

But the idea that the road ahead is the same as the road right here is
a common cause of crashes. The idea of a bike path suddenly veering
because of an obstacle, or maybe worse not veering, is admittedly not
sensible and so perhaps not predictable to an inexperienced cyclist used
to car-based road design, but then as the "Cycling Facility of the Month"
pages show, it's distressingly common.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index...

Zebee

I only use bike paths when I'm in a mood to go slowly, smell the
roses, and take my time. Otherwise I ride on the road. If I'm in a
hurry I take a train, or very occasionally drive a car.

Many times I ride on bike paths I'm stunned by the speed at which
people ride on them. To me, they are going way too fast, leaving
absolutely no margin for error at all. Reminiscent of the way a lot of
car drivers drive their cars.

It seems to me that most bike paths are unsafe at greater than 20km/
hr.

Zebee Johnstone said:

But the idea that the road ahead is the same as the road right here is
a common cause of crashes. The idea of a bike path suddenly veering
because of an obstacle, or maybe worse not veering, is admittedly not
sensible and so perhaps not predictable to an inexperienced cyclist
used to car-based road design, but then as the "Cycling Facility of
the Month" pages show, it's distressingly common.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm

One for 'bents.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/May2003.htm

Theo

In aus.bicycle on 26 Apr 2007 16:38:11 -0700

AndrewJ said:

I only use bike paths when I'm in a mood to go slowly, smell the
roses, and take my time. Otherwise I ride on the road. If I'm in a
hurry I take a train, or very occasionally drive a car.

I use the Cooks River path to get to a shopping area I use, and
sometimes to get to work when I am heading to Alexandria.

When we move to North Ryde, I'll be using paths to get to work for about
75% of the trip. Cos they are flat and I'm a real wimp!

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that most bike paths are unsafe at greater than 20km/
hr.

I don't usually do much more than that on the path. 25 is about my usual
speed unless there's people about or it's horribly bumpy. If there's
lots of bodies such as a Saturday afternoon I'll slow down because that's
only sensible but if there's no one about I'll go as fast as I feel like
which usually isn't that fast.

With seriously shared areas like Pyrmont Bridge I tend to 15-20 and
figure that's fast enough to safely dodge peds who can't walk
straight[1] but I'm one of the slow cyclists there...

Zebee

[1] most people seem to have a buffer zone, they'll move until they
have lots of room around them. So they'll drift across as soon as
they can, then drift back if the space on one side is getting tight.
Judging a particular ped's personal space and tendency to do this can
get interesting.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bleve said:

It's a case of riding to the conditions.

For sure. But I think an argument can be made that bike paths like the
one along the foreshore, because they're used by so many inexperienced
and/or irregular cyclists, need more attention in terms of safe design.
That doesn't mean they can be made foolproof, it simply means designing
and maintaining them with typical users in mind.

--
Shane Stanley

On Apr 27, 10:02 am, Shane Stanley <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bleve said:

It's a case of riding to the conditions.

For sure. But I think an argument can be made that bike paths like the
one along the foreshore, because they're used by so many inexperienced
and/or irregular cyclists, need more attention in terms of safe design.
That doesn't mean they can be made foolproof, it simply means designing
and maintaining them with typical users in mind.

Sure, you can improve them, but the responsibility for safety rests on
the shoulders of the users of the facility, IMO. If someone's unsafe
on a path, take them to a velodrome or a carpark or somewhere until
they're competent to habdle their bike. It's just like roads, sure,
we can clear every tree away, remove all the blind corners, turn
everything into a tunnel etc, but users of roads still have to use the
roads to how they are, and not drive or ride or whatever, beyond what
they can see and react to in time.
What's nice about that path is that it's meandering and twisty and
scenic. It's not for riding fast on, as everyone here knows, but it's
also not really suitable for absolute beginners. There's too much
random traffic on and about it, and too many interesting bits (which
is why it's nice in the first place!).

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bleve said:

Sure, you can improve them

I don't mean that so much as maintain them. The sightlines as some of
the carpark entrances are a good example.

--
Shane Stanley