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All you apologists can shut up now.

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Road Cycling
Published
7 May 2007
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  1. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Scott said:

    For me, admiration for Basso's confession would only be warranted if
    he'd confessed while under no suspicion whatsoever. Then I'd know
    that it was his conscience that got to him, not a sense of impending
    doom. It's not that hard to confess when you know you're about to be
    found guilty, anyway. Criminals do it all the time.

    Has anyone confessed while under no suspicion (not counting guys who
    had quit, were retired, or were going to retire anyway)?

    Justin Spinelli? Don't think he was ever caught with anything as I
    recall.

    Guys seem to do what they best for their situation. If you're at the
    end of your career ... a suspension is the end, so you might as well
    deny. Basso could take the suspension and race again. The Landis
    thing is puzzling ... why would you blow through so much $ on legal
    expenses fighting it ...

    Amish Honor?? Having grown up near Floyd's part of PA and being familiar
    with the community standards I'd be unbearably devastated if caught.

    jim

  2. Herrera won the Vuelta in 1987. I think he's safe.

    Heras on the other hand ...

    "paolo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...
    | On May 7, 8:06 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>
    | wrote:
    | > Eventually someone was going to cave under the weight of the evidence.
    | >
    | > I can't wait for all the jock sniffers to come out saying how "brave"
    | > he is.
    |
    | This was all somewhat predictable in light of his recent departure
    | from Discovery and the pending hearing with the italian olympic review
    | group. Either he did the right thing and saved Discovery some
    | embarrasment, or Discovery got some smarts and wrote something into
    | his contract linking his salary to the outcome of any futrue OP
    | results ...i.e. where he couldn't afford to get caught in a lie, and
    | stepped up and admitted his involvement (unlikely).
    |
    | Mostlikely scenario is the authorities told his lawyer that he had a
    | better chance at a 1 year suspension if he "cooperated". Combined
    | with saving Discovery some angst, the least painful (and costly)
    | option was cooperate. 2007 is over for Basso....probably 2008.
    |
    | My question now is, can he be stripped of any titles he picked-up last
    | year, i.e. the 2006 Giro! Or is this all just "implication" stuff and
    | we're now moving into 12 months of legal maneuvering. Speaking of
    | which, all these OP riders are probably watching how much Landis is
    | having to fork over to prove his case, and they're caving and asking
    | for leniency (1 vs 2 year suspensions).
    |
    | It's all rather disheartening. Herera (Vuelta), Landis (TdF) and now
    | Basso (Giro). I find it funny that Armstrong blessed both Landis and
    | Basso over the last 12 months.
    |
    |
    |

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Leo said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:

    Excuse me? It was McQuaid, a couple days after the TdF, who announced that
    the "worst case scenario" was upon us. Well before testing of the B samples.
    And in violation of protocol. Hardly an indication of the other side keeping
    their mouth shut. Floyd was being tried in the court of public opinion long
    before he had a chance to begin to defend himself.

    Well, technically it was Floyd and his team.

    But I am talking about now-a-days. He and his lawyers are pointing to
    all sort of technical mistakes, procedure faults, unreliability of
    methods, while his 'opponents' can't reply.

    In fairness to Floyd, he is attempting, with whatever motive, to
    fundraise for his rather expensive defence.

    I have no reason to believe, given what a pro with Floyd's palmares
    earns, that he hasn't exhausted much of his personal resources fighting
    this.

    Given that, when he does his talk-and-beg show, it would be a rather
    thin thing if he couldn't say why his cause was just, and demonstrate
    some hope that his case will be overturned on the evidence.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  4. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    need more sun said:
    Scott said:
    Quoted post said:

    On May 7, 11:22 am, Scott <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    > For me, admiration for Basso's confession would only be warranted if
    > he'd confessed while under no suspicion whatsoever. Then I'd know
    > that it was his conscience that got to him, not a sense of impending
    > doom. It's not that hard to confess when you know you're about to be
    > found guilty, anyway. Criminals do it all the time.

    Quoted message said:

    Has anyone confessed while under no suspicion (not counting guys who
    had quit, were retired, or were going to retire anyway)?

    Quoted message said:

    Justin Spinelli? Don't think he was ever caught with anything as I
    recall.

    Quoted message said:

    Guys seem to do what they best for their situation. If you're at the
    end of your career ... a suspension is the end, so you might as well
    deny. Basso could take the suspension and race again. The Landis
    thing is puzzling ... why would you blow through so much $ on legal
    expenses fighting it ... when even if he wins it's doubtful he would
    race again. And even if cleared would he ever make it up?

    Quoted message said:

    As much as I despise Pound ... he does have a point in the "deny,
    deny, deny" statement.
    B.

    Floyd, if cleared, will make up lot's of money, if he can show that
    there was any sort of deliberate effort to convict him in the absence
    of evidence. He'll likely follow with a civil suit against Pound,
    WADA, the French lab, etc... for lost wages, earning power, etc...

    Plus, if he prevails, his book sales and speaking fees will bring in
    mucho deniro.

    Without jumping to conclusions,

    Nice.

    Quoted message said:

    let's look at the other possibility.
    If he is guilty, he is a liar who cheated, caused his team to
    collapse, has damaged cycling by being the only Tour winner to be
    found positive, then has caused further damage to the sport by draging
    the anti-doping processes through the mud. As well as having the cheek
    to ask fans to pay for his defense.

    ASO, WADA, and UCI decided they wanted to find their
    own champion guilty. They're idiots. There are better
    ways to clean up the sport. Now they are in scrap with
    somebody who will take the fight to them. Floyd knows
    they can keep him out of cycling, but he will make them hurt.

    Quoted message said:

    I stress that I'm not saying he is guilty, (although I certainly
    believe he doped in the past), but am laying out the facts as they
    stand if he did indeed do it. In which case, I don't know how he
    sleeps at night.

    Nice.

    Quoted message said:

    Only Floyd and a few others know the full truth. But, Floyd, if you
    did do it, own the hell up. Because if you are lying, you are helping
    to kill the sport you proport to love. Not just once, but many times
    over.

    If he is innocent, then all the above is irrelevant.

    Nice squared.

    --
    Michael Press

  5. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:
    Scott said:

    Floyd, if cleared, will make up lot's of money, if he can show that
    there was any sort of deliberate effort to convict him in the absence
    of evidence. He'll likely follow with a civil suit against Pound,
    WADA, the French lab, etc... for lost wages, earning power, etc...

    possibly ... seems like quite a gamble though, and any sort of lawsuit
    would take years.

    Well, if he's properly exonerated, he's at least going to start back on
    the path of making a couple million a year. If his new hip works.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Plus, if he prevails, his book sales and speaking fees will bring in
    mucho deniro

    DeNiro will play him in a movie? :-)

    It's the role he was born to play!

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  6. In article <[email hidden]>,
    need more sun <[email hidden]> wrote:

    (snipper)

    Quoted message said:

    then has caused further damage to the sport by draging
    the anti-doping processes through the mud.

    If you've been paying atention, the anti-doping process was already
    in the mud. Leaked results, allegedly infallible testing methods,
    Pound's pronouncements, etc.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Never take a tenant with a monkey.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  7. Tom Grosman said:

    "paolo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    | It's all rather disheartening. Herera (Vuelta), Landis (TdF) and now
    | Basso (Giro). I find it funny that Armstrong blessed both Landis and
    | Basso over the last 12 months.

    Herrera won the Vuelta in 1987. I think he's safe.
    Heras on the other hand ...

    You never know with the new WADA retroactive testing regimes.
    They can review the videotape or even film and tell if a racer
    punched the air too aggressively on crossing the finish line.

    I think riders who won before the age of still photography can
    rest easy, but as [censored] Pound says, you can't say you've cleaned
    up the sport until you've cleaned up its record books too,

    Ben

  8. Ryan Cousineau said:

    In fairness to Floyd, he is attempting, with whatever motive, to
    fundraise for his rather expensive defence.

    This is why I like him less than others. I wonder if other cyclists
    have had so expensive lawyers. And I wonder if other cyclists (apart
    Tyler?) have created such a massive media campaign - fully knowing
    that the counterpart can't object to their claims to the media.

    But then I fully recognize my eurocentric prejudice against some
    aspects of US society.

  9. paolo said:

    My question now is, can he be stripped of any titles he picked-up last
    year, i.e. the 2006 Giro!

    According to
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may08news2
    Basso is denying that he doped during last year's Giro. He claims the
    blood was being saved for the 2006 Tour.

    J. Spaceman

  10. Jason Spaceman said:
    paolo said:

    My question now is, can he be stripped of any titles he picked-up last
    year, i.e. the 2006 Giro!

    According to
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may08news2
    Basso is denying that he doped during last year's Giro. He claims the
    blood was being saved for the 2006 Tour.

    The Giro blood was already injected 🙂.

    Dan

  11. Quoted post said:

    <snipped>
    Has anyone confessed while under no suspicion (not counting guys who
    had quit, were retired, or were going to retire anyway)?

    Justin Spinelli? Don't think he was ever caught with anything as I
    recall.


    <snipped>

    Quoted message said:

    As much as I despise Pound ... he does have a point in the "deny,
    deny, deny" statement.
    B.

    I'm gonna stick up for Justin. Not for the fact that he did dope, but
    for the fact that he knew it was a mistake, and despite the evidence
    of doping being widespread, he didn't just go with the flow.
    He had a conscience, and admitted it, and told his story. He was
    treated like [censored] compared to those who went the "deny, deny, deny"
    route, were busted, and treated like nothing ever happened.
    People make mistakes. It's how they handle them that's important, and
    the way Justin handled his said to me he's a good, solid person. I'd
    bet the house that at least some of the people [censored] all over him
    publicly, and at races, were, and still are doped to the gills.
    He's not a saint, but he sure as hell didn't deserve the [censored] he
    caught either.
    Bill C

  12. On May 8, 1:31 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Grosman said:

    "paolo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    | It's all rather disheartening. Herera (Vuelta), Landis (TdF) and now
    | Basso (Giro). I find it funny that Armstrong blessed both Landis and
    | Basso over the last 12 months.

    Quoted message said:

    Herrera won the Vuelta in 1987. I think he's safe.
    Heras on the other hand ...

    You never know with the new WADA retroactive testing regimes.
    They can review the videotape or even film and tell if a racer
    punched the air too aggressively on crossing the finish line.

    I think riders who won before the age of still photography can
    rest easy, but as [censored] Pound says, you can't say you've cleaned
    up the sport until you've cleaned up its record books too,

    Ben

    ::sarcasm alert::
    If I was Eddy Merckx I'd be pretty worried about having my legacy, and
    victories stripped because it's gotta be pretty damned obvious to
    Pound that anyone that dominant was obviously doing massive amounts of
    all the best dope. Couldn't have been done otherwise.
    Bill C

  13. Bill C said:

    On May 8, 1:31 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    On May 7, 3:56 pm, "Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "paolo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    | It's all rather disheartening. Herera (Vuelta), Landis (TdF) and now
    | Basso (Giro). I find it funny that Armstrong blessed both Landis and
    | Basso over the last 12 months.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Herrera won the Vuelta in 1987. I think he's safe.
    Heras on the other hand ...

    Quoted message said:

    You never know with the new WADA retroactive testing regimes.
    They can review the videotape or even film and tell if a racer
    punched the air too aggressively on crossing the finish line.

    Quoted message said:

    I think riders who won before the age of still photography can
    rest easy, but as [censored] Pound says, you can't say you've cleaned
    up the sport until you've cleaned up its record books too,

    Quoted message said:

    Ben

    ::sarcasm alert::
    If I was Eddy Merckx I'd be pretty worried about having my legacy, and
    victories stripped because it's gotta be pretty damned obvious to
    Pound that anyone that dominant was obviously doing massive amounts of
    all the best dope. Couldn't have been done otherwise.

    That's the point isn't it? The only performance drugs available to
    Eddy would have made him look like Schwartzenneger with a split chin
    and deep cheekbones. He didn't have those so if he was doping it could
    only have been painkillers and amphetamines which don't make you go
    faster, only make you less miserable.

    I'm sure that once in awhile when feeling like [censored] all of the old
    time riders would use some of the pain killers. Did it constitute
    doping if they didn't improve your performance? It still bugs me when
    the morons here decry the "widespread use of asthma inhalers". If
    they'd had asthma or the similar allergic reactions to pollen they'd
    be a hell of a lot less likely to open their stupid mouths about it.

    For a lot of years I thought that I had altitude sickness at Lake
    Tahoe because each year at our Around Tahoe Ride I'd be struggling to
    catch my breath. A couple of years ago I had a slight cold and used
    some antihistamines and WHAT A DIFFERENCE! It turns out that I'm
    allergic to a type of tree pollen that is in high season each August
    when we hold our ride there.

    My guess is that none of the complainers here (Lafferty especially)
    think one second about using cold medicine when they have a cold. They
    don't think about using allergy medicine if they have an allergy. They
    don't think about using any sort of medicine that will make their
    live's a little better. And yet they want to condemn someone else for
    doing the same thing.

    As I've said before, I don't want drugs in cycling because young men
    don't have a sense of proportion. If some's good, more's better and
    too much is just right and then they're damaged for life. Young men
    spend most of their youth running towards death and then old men spend
    their time running away from it. If we don't set standards too many
    live's are injured. Not to mention that it doesn't give us a level
    playing field.

    One of the sad memories I have is of Charly Mottet who [censored] Voet
    claims never doped. People like him and Andy Hampsten preferred to
    leave the sport rather than swim upstream. And that's a loss to us
    all.

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Leo said:
    Ryan Cousineau said:

    In fairness to Floyd, he is attempting, with whatever motive, to
    fundraise for his rather expensive defence.

    This is why I like him less than others. I wonder if other cyclists
    have had so expensive lawyers. And I wonder if other cyclists (apart
    Tyler?) have created such a massive media campaign - fully knowing
    that the counterpart can't object to their claims to the media.

    The other riders were guilty. The counterparts get to object in the
    hearing, which is all that really matters anyways. No matter how many
    "we believe" t-shirts have been sold, you'll notice that Mr. Hamilton
    continues to be absent from the ProTour.

    Quoted message said:

    But then I fully recognize my eurocentric prejudice against some
    aspects of US society.

    The US (and for that matter, most Commonwealth countries) have an
    adversarial judicial system as a pretty fundamental element of their
    society. Even where it isn't directly involved, it tends to be the
    default model for other forms of adjudication.

    Here's the deal: despite what most people may think, I doubt the court
    of public opinion matters a whole bunch in what is about to come. More
    importantly, consider the reputational damage each way: Floyd says this
    and Floyd says that, but in the end if the hearing goes against him,
    he's busted, the end. If the hearing goes his way, well, then he was
    justified in saying all those things.

    On the other hand, the prosecutors have already made a public accusation
    of the defendant: no matter how little they say from then on, the
    implication is that they wouldn't have accused him without
    justification. It's decorous for them to say no further, and let the
    hearing work.

    A similar situation applies to criminal prosecutions: the mere act of
    arrest and charge is a huge burden for almost any person, innocent or
    guilty. If they are eventually found guilty, then that's part of the
    punishment. If not, then you've put that person through the wringer
    already, and they've suffered mightily for no reason. At least they were
    able to proclaim their innocence

    This is why I think it disreputable for police and prosecutors to
    publicly discuss cases, but not so for defendants. The reputational
    damage that prosecutors (either as a profession or personally) suffer
    for a failure to convict is pretty minimal, While a charge alone, even
    if later dropped entirely, can continue to define the chargee's public
    reputation for the rest of their life.

    The one "advantage" to prosecutors and such talking big is that if they
    really are riding a bad prosecution over a cliff, the bigger they talk,
    the harder they fall (cf. Mr. Ray Nifong, who had to resign his position
    mainly because he was an idiot in public).

    In Canada, the tradition of cops and Crown prosecutors not talking smack
    about the defendant in public is much stronger, and I think justice is
    well-served by this tradition.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  15. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    My guess is that none of the complainers here (Lafferty especially)
    think one second about using cold medicine when they have a cold. They
    don't think about using allergy medicine if they have an allergy. They
    don't think about using any sort of medicine that will make their
    live's a little better. And yet they want to condemn someone else for
    doing the same thing.

    I will go out on a limb here, and agree with you. Agree
    whole-heartedly. The logical disconnect is maddening to me.


    There is no logical disconnect. Cyclists work in a job that requires
    them to steer clear of many medicinal compounds, and declare any other
    compounds which are necessary but fall under shady categories. None of
    us regular folk do. If the cyclist doesn't want to do this, he can get a
    job which doesn't require medical transparency.

  16. Quoted message said:


    That's the point isn't it? The only performance drugs available to
    Eddy would have made him look like Schwartzenneger with a split chin
    and deep cheekbones. He didn't have those so if he was doping it could
    only have been painkillers and amphetamines which don't make you go
    faster, only make you less miserable.

    WTF? That's bull. Absolute bull. Amphetamines make you go faster, full
    stop. This has been conclusively proven. And pain killers do too. Ever
    hear talk of champions having a high pain tolerance? Being able to
    keep pushing yourself is a big part of the sport.

  17. Michael Press said:

    cheating me. Cyclists have always doped. Now we have a pogrom.
    Crusaders annoy me, mostly because they act like they are better
    than everybody else, even other crusaders.

    Dumbass -

    Which crusader annoys you the most: [censored] Pound, W. Bush or Queen
    Isabella?

    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.

  18. Michael Press said:
    Quoted message said:

    cheating me. Cyclists have always doped. Now we have a pogrom.
    Crusaders annoy me, mostly because they act like they are better
    than everybody else, even other crusaders.

    Kurgan Gringioni said:

    Which crusader annoys you the most: [censored] Pound, W. Bush or Queen
    Isabella?

    What about Monty Python ?

  19. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Kurgan Gringioni said:
    Michael Press said:

    cheating me. Cyclists have always doped. Now we have a pogrom.
    Crusaders annoy me, mostly because they act like they are better
    than everybody else, even other crusaders.

    Dumbass -

    Which crusader annoys you the most: [censored] Pound, W. Bush or Queen
    Isabella?

    Currently, need more sun, but that could change.

    --
    Michael Press

  20. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Kurgan Gringioni said:

    On May 10, 12:10 pm, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cheating me. Cyclists have always doped. Now we have a pogrom.
    Crusaders annoy me, mostly because they act like they are better
    than everybody else, even other crusaders.

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass -

    Quoted message said:

    Which crusader annoys you the most: [censored] Pound, W. Bush or Queen
    Isabella?

    Currently, need more sun, but that could change.

    --
    Michael Press

    Glad I [censored] you off, so... Anyone who thinks it is ok for the sport to
    continue to self-destruct is not someone I want to please. You
    wouldn't know ethics if they came up and savaged you.

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