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A Real Sport Suspends Player for 50 Ball Games.

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Road Cycling
Published
8 May 2007
Last activity
11 May 2007
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RonSonic
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  1. A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
    for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
    announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
    games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
    conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
    question of the test's validity.

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refer=home

    Ron

  2. RonSonic said:

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    One other fundamental difference is that sports such as this have a
    'governing body' (well really, the group of team owners), that know
    the critical importance of the image the sport presents to the
    public ... and they do whatever it takes to maintain the image (or
    illusion, if you want to be more cynical). Damage to the image means
    loss of dollars. And as much as the press portrays conflict between
    owners and players ... they know that they are in it together. Imagine
    cycling if all the race promoters, all the team owners, and the
    governing body were all on the same page.

  3. Almost makes you hope that the major tours split from the UCI, and
    take all their races with them. Not much would be left of the UCI pro-
    tour if that happened.

    Quoted message said:


    One other fundamental difference is that sports such as this have a
    'governing body' (well really, the group of team owners), that know
    the critical importance of the image the sport presents to the
    public ... and they do whatever it takes to maintain the image (or
    illusion, if you want to be more cynical). Damage to the image means
    loss of dollars. And as much as the press portrays conflict between
    owners and players ... they know that they are in it together. Imagine
    cycling if all the race promoters, all the team owners, and the
    governing body were all on the same page.

  4. Quoted message said:

    One other fundamental difference is that sports such as this have a
    'governing body' (well really, the group of team owners), that know
    the critical importance of the image the sport presents to the
    public ... and they do whatever it takes to maintain the image (or
    illusion, if you want to be more cynical). Damage to the image means
    loss of dollars. And as much as the press portrays conflict between
    owners and players ... they know that they are in it together. Imagine
    cycling if all the race promoters, all the team owners, and the
    governing body were all on the same page.

    UCI != WADA.

    One of the things that is going on is WADA is picking off an
    easy target. As opposed to soccer, which would be a very
    difficult target.

    Bob Schwartz

  5. In article <[email hidden]>,

    RonSonic said:

    A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
    for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
    announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
    games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
    conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
    question of the test's validity.

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refer=home

    He must also attend a five week class on drug testing methodology.

    --
    Michael Press

  6. Michael Press said:

    He must also attend a five week class on drug testing methodology.

    Fuentes must have found a new job in the education sector.

  7. On May 8, 2:50 pm, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    UCI != WADA.

    One of the things that is going on is WADA is picking off an
    easy target. As opposed to soccer, which would be a very
    difficult target.

    True ... but there first has to be the agreement of the sport to even
    be governed by a body

    US pro football, baseball, etc. don't submit to being goverened by a
    body that has accepted WADA as an authority. Then things would be out
    of their control.

    Soccer (the other football) has FIFA ... but you can still see the
    impact of the money, making it, as you say, a difficult target.

  8. RonSonic said:

    A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
    for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
    announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
    games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
    conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
    question of the test's validity.

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refe...

    Ron

    Judging from his record, it doesn't look like the performance-
    enhancing drugs were helping.

    Tom

  9. email hidden said:
    RonSonic said:

    A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
    for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
    announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
    games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
    conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
    question of the test's validity.

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aASfIU_9wTDg&refe...

    Ron

    Judging from his record, it doesn't look like the performance-
    enhancing drugs were helping.

    He didn't have Grape Preparation.

    Ron

  10. RonSonic said:

    A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
    for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
    announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
    games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
    conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
    question of the test's validity.

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    dumbass,

    the avg. rbr simpleton doesn't understand that cycling VOLUNTARILY*
    accepted the WADA code. the code itself is a compromise which was
    written in a way to bring all the sports federations aboard.

    that's where the automatic 2-yr suspensions come from. when they did
    that they gave up a lot of autonomy, but also a lot of power to deal
    with a problem in the optimal way.

    on top of that cyclists and support personnel have been getting in
    trouble with the LAW, which is a PR problem that can't be ignored.

    a good example of baseball dealing with a potentially damaging scandal
    was the case of pete rose and his gambling. that was an issue that hit
    at the integrity of the game. drugs in ball sports don't really do
    that.

    in cycling on the other hand, blood doping and other unallowed methods
    of boosting aerobic power are cheating at the fundamental skill of the
    sport. this makes them different than abuse of uppers, diuetics,
    steroids, etc.

    pete rose never admitted to gambling on baseball at the time despite
    the overwhelming circumstantial evidence but the bosses were still
    able to deal with him in a way that said to the public -- "look we
    don't have a gambling problem in the game, because look at the severe
    penalty we handed out when we found one".

    any observer with half a brain who sees that the OP evidence (even
    before the DNA tests and Basso's non-admission) and sees it still
    isn't enough for the bosses to hand down penalties will have zero
    faith in the integrity of the sport. but because of WADA their hands
    are tied.

    if you had a business and you thought an employee was stealing, you
    would either a) look at the evidence and make a decision or b) look
    for more evidence before making a decision. you wouldn't wait until
    the police or some regulating body caught them. you could be wiped out
    by the time that happens.

    if cycling was independent and run like a business (like MLB
    is...sorta) when it suspected a problem it could've sought evidence,
    held inquiries, heard testimonies, done whatever tests in the labs
    they wanted to and dealt with the problem - at least to the
    satisfaction of the fans, and more importantly the sponsors.

    instead the only way the OP stuff is going ahead is because forces
    outside of cycling are pursuing things.

    desite what the confused people in this group think, the UCI and the
    gov. bodies are the rider's friend. they don't want to suspend their
    own riders. they are forced to, because of the agreements that exist
    between the UCI and WADA.

    until people understand that we'll keep getting incoherent and
    confused rants, just look at the cyclingnews letters.

  11. Sorry, not too familiar with this, but what did the UCI gain by
    accepting the WADA code? the right for pros to compete in the
    Olympics?
    Seems like accepting WADA was the worst thing they could have done...

    Quoted message said:
    RonSonic said:

    A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
    for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
    announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
    games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
    conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
    question of the test's validity.

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    dumbass,

    the avg. rbr simpleton doesn't understand that cycling VOLUNTARILY*
    accepted the WADA code. the code itself is a compromise which was
    written in a way to bring all the sports federations aboard.

    that's where the automatic 2-yr suspensions come from. when they did
    that they gave up a lot of autonomy, but also a lot of power to deal
    with a problem in the optimal way.

    on top of that cyclists and support personnel have been getting in
    trouble with the LAW, which is a PR problem that can't be ignored.

    a good example of baseball dealing with a potentially damaging scandal
    was the case of pete rose and his gambling. that was an issue that hit
    at the integrity of the game. drugs in ball sports don't really do
    that.

    in cycling on the other hand, blood doping and other unallowed methods
    of boosting aerobic power are cheating at the fundamental skill of the
    sport. this makes them different than abuse of uppers, diuetics,
    steroids, etc.

    pete rose never admitted to gambling on baseball at the time despite
    the overwhelming circumstantial evidence but the bosses were still
    able to deal with him in a way that said to the public -- "look we
    don't have a gambling problem in the game, because look at the severe
    penalty we handed out when we found one".

    any observer with half a brain who sees that the OP evidence (even
    before the DNA tests and Basso's non-admission) and sees it still
    isn't enough for the bosses to hand down penalties will have zero
    faith in the integrity of the sport. but because of WADA their hands
    are tied.

    if you had a business and you thought an employee was stealing, you
    would either a) look at the evidence and make a decision or b) look
    for more evidence before making a decision. you wouldn't wait until
    the police or some regulating body caught them. you could be wiped out
    by the time that happens.

    if cycling was independent and run like a business (like MLB
    is...sorta) when it suspected a problem it could've sought evidence,
    held inquiries, heard testimonies, done whatever tests in the labs
    they wanted to and dealt with the problem - at least to the
    satisfaction of the fans, and more importantly the sponsors.

    instead the only way the OP stuff is going ahead is because forces
    outside of cycling are pursuing things.

    desite what the confused people in this group think, the UCI and the
    gov. bodies are the rider's friend. they don't want to suspend their
    own riders. they are forced to, because of the agreements that exist
    between the UCI and WADA.

    until people understand that we'll keep getting incoherent and
    confused rants, just look at the cyclingnews letters.

  12. shane said:

    Sorry, not too familiar with this, but what did the UCI gain by
    accepting the WADA code? the right for pros to compete in the
    Olympics?

    Any cycling at all in the Olympics.

    Quoted message said:

    Seems like accepting WADA was the worst thing they could have done...

    Could still be true.

    --
    E. Dronkert

  13. On 9 May 2007 22:56:21 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    RonSonic said:

    A player on my local pro baseball team failed a drug test. He has been suspended
    for 50 games. There were no leaks about this case before the official
    announcement. There was no attempt to change the record book and rescore the
    games he played. The penalty assessed does not ruin his entire career. The
    conduct of the lab and sanctioning body were so scrupulous that there is no
    question of the test's validity.

    Those are the things that are wrong with doping in cycling. The athletes are,
    aside from a notable lack of agility and upper body mass, pretty much the same
    as any other athletes. The sanctioning agencies and WADA and the blithering
    incompetent labs are the difference.

    dumbass,

    the avg. rbr simpleton doesn't understand that cycling VOLUNTARILY*
    accepted the WADA code. the code itself is a compromise which was
    written in a way to bring all the sports federations aboard.

    that's where the automatic 2-yr suspensions come from. when they did
    that they gave up a lot of autonomy, but also a lot of power to deal
    with a problem in the optimal way.

    on top of that cyclists and support personnel have been getting in
    trouble with the LAW, which is a PR problem that can't be ignored.

    a good example of baseball dealing with a potentially damaging scandal
    was the case of pete rose and his gambling. that was an issue that hit
    at the integrity of the game. drugs in ball sports don't really do
    that.

    in cycling on the other hand, blood doping and other unallowed methods
    of boosting aerobic power are cheating at the fundamental skill of the
    sport. this makes them different than abuse of uppers, diuetics,
    steroids, etc.

    pete rose never admitted to gambling on baseball at the time despite
    the overwhelming circumstantial evidence but the bosses were still
    able to deal with him in a way that said to the public -- "look we
    don't have a gambling problem in the game, because look at the severe
    penalty we handed out when we found one".

    any observer with half a brain who sees that the OP evidence (even
    before the DNA tests and Basso's non-admission) and sees it still
    isn't enough for the bosses to hand down penalties will have zero
    faith in the integrity of the sport. but because of WADA their hands
    are tied.

    if you had a business and you thought an employee was stealing, you
    would either a) look at the evidence and make a decision or b) look
    for more evidence before making a decision. you wouldn't wait until
    the police or some regulating body caught them. you could be wiped out
    by the time that happens.

    if cycling was independent and run like a business (like MLB
    is...sorta) when it suspected a problem it could've sought evidence,
    held inquiries, heard testimonies, done whatever tests in the labs
    they wanted to and dealt with the problem - at least to the
    satisfaction of the fans, and more importantly the sponsors.

    instead the only way the OP stuff is going ahead is because forces
    outside of cycling are pursuing things.

    desite what the confused people in this group think, the UCI and the
    gov. bodies are the rider's friend. they don't want to suspend their
    own riders. they are forced to, because of the agreements that exist
    between the UCI and WADA.

    until people understand that we'll keep getting incoherent and
    confused rants, just look at the cyclingnews letters.

    Dumbass -

    You make some very good points. UCI may be in a position where it would seem
    advantageous for them to be on the rider's side. But if they actually perceive
    that, then they are staggeringly incompetent at serving those interests.

    I don't see how you can say that doping in a stick and ball game doesn't affect
    the outcome as it does in cycling. The guy taking the 'roids sure as hell thinks
    they will. Having had to tackle a prototype roid-monster back in the 70s, I'd
    say they certainly made a difference.

    Here's an unasked question:
    Are the doping rules that benefit an amateur sport appropriate for a
    professional sport? All the other rules have variations and exemptions at
    different levels of sport. Sports that have their own organizations and haven't
    bent over for [censored] Pound have often had different doping controls at different
    levels of the sport.

    Anyway, good post.

    Ron

  14. RonSonic said:


    I don't see how you can say that doping in a stick and ball game doesn't affect
    the outcome as it does in cycling. The guy taking the 'roids sure as hell thinks
    they will. Having had to tackle a prototype roid-monster back in the 70s, I'd
    say they certainly made a difference.

    Here's an unasked question:
    Are the doping rules that benefit an amateur sport appropriate for a
    professional sport? All the other rules have variations and exemptions at
    different levels of sport. Sports that have their own organizations and haven't
    bent over for [censored] Pound have often had different doping controls at different
    levels of the sport.

    Anyway, good post.

    Ron- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Don't be giing baseball any credit, or maybe it's just the sports
    press, especially the Boston folks who are notorious.
    Schilling rips Bonds with a shot that would've fit right in here, and
    is being crucified, and was gutless enough to apologise. Our young kid
    closer Papelbon says :

    Quoted from:
    http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/05/closer_chimes_i.html

    Papelbon was asked if will be paying attention as Barry Bonds
    approaches the all-time home run record.

    "Yeah definitely," said Papelbon. "He's doing it for baseball. And I
    think it's good for baseball. And I think that he's going out there
    and crushing home runs and getting baseball back to where it was in
    the late 1990s and such that, hey, fans are going to come out and see
    the home runs, there's no doubt about it. And fans will come see good
    pitching. And I think he's doing great for the game itself, so I can't
    complain."

    Papelbon was asked if baseball and commissioner Bud Selig should
    embrace Bonds and the home run chase.

    "Yeah definitely, 100 percent," replied Papelbon.
    More at the link.

    And nobody has even issued a mild criticism or question. If I was him
    I'd be ready to be tested and asked a lot of questions. Pound would be
    in the process of running his ass out of the sport right now.
    Personally I think it is just a young, not very savvy kid spouting
    off, but he pisses me off a lot more than Scilling.
    Bill C

  15. On May 10, 9:55 am, Ewoud Dronkert <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    shane said:

    Sorry, not too familiar with this, but what did the UCI gain by
    accepting the WADA code? the right for pros to compete in the
    Olympics?

    Any cycling at all in the Olympics.

    There's no reason why the gov. body for europro cycling has to be the
    same as the gov. body for the rest of the sport.

    The NBA/NHL have manged to work with their respective governing bodies
    to allow their players to play in world championships and the
    Olympics.

  16. RonSonic said:

    You make some very good points. UCI may be in a position where it would seem
    advantageous for them to be on the rider's side. But if they actually perceive
    that, then they are staggeringly incompetent at serving those interests.

    I agree. The biggest failure was unilaterally setting up the protour
    system and then hanging Unibet out to dry. They obviously don't have
    the the stomach to pull the UCI sanction from the races.

    Quoted message said:

    I don't see how you can say that doping in a stick and ball game doesn't affect
    the outcome as it does in cycling. The guy taking the 'roids sure as hell thinks
    they will. Having had to tackle a prototype roid-monster back in the 70s, I'd
    say they certainly made a difference.

    sure it does. but in the minds of the fans the skill is fundamental,
    unlike sports which are mainly contests of speed, strengh, endurance.

    Quoted message said:

    Here's an unasked question:
    Are the doping rules that benefit an amateur sport appropriate for a
    professional sport?

    Or all rules in general ? I'd say no. Some cycling disciplines are
    connected to massive business interests, others are not.

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