Rider dies in car collision

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_5996444

and not long ago:

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=70216

Those who know the route might have a difficult time understanding
these events, the road being straight with good visibility.

"both traveling eastbound." The evidence suggests that either the rider
had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the car, or the driver
had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the bike.

Rider was 67, driver 87. At this point it's mostly conjecture, but the
way to bet in these sorts of rear-ender accidents is against the driver.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau writes:

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_5996444

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and not long ago:

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=70216

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those who know the route might have a difficult time understanding
these events, the road being straight with good visibility.

Quoted message said:

"both traveling eastbound." The evidence suggests that either the
rider had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the car, or
the driver had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the
bike.

Quoted message said:

Rider was 67, driver 87. At this point it's mostly conjecture, but
the way to bet in these sorts of rear-ender accidents is against the
driver.

After finding other news clips it appears that this occurred at the
classic place where car drivers ignore right-of-way signs. I cross
that spot often and am pressed by cars that ignore the YIELD sign and
try to bluff the bicyclist into stopping for them. I keep a sharp eye
on the driver without turning my head so I can see what his plans are.

The old guy at the wheel in this event seems to have been too slow on
the response and missed the YIELD sign as well. I will write to the
city council to see if YIELD signs twice as large and on both sides of
the lane can be installed.

Occasionally I have the opportunity to confront such a driver at the
following traffic light. The response is that no YIELD sign was seen.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

After finding other news clips it appears that this occurred at the
classic place where car drivers ignore right-of-way signs. I cross
that spot often and am pressed by cars that ignore the YIELD sign and
try to bluff the bicyclist into stopping for them. I keep a sharp eye
on the driver without turning my head so I can see what his plans are.

The old guy at the wheel in this event seems to have been too slow on
the response and missed the YIELD sign as well. I will write to the
city council to see if YIELD signs twice as large and on both sides of
the lane can be installed.

I don't think drivers would honor a YIELD sign there if it were
10' tall. There should be a STOP sign instead.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

After finding other news clips it appears that this occurred at the
classic place where car drivers ignore right-of-way signs. I cross
that spot often and am pressed by cars that ignore the YIELD sign and
try to bluff the bicyclist into stopping for them. I keep a sharp eye
on the driver without turning my head so I can see what his plans are.

The old guy at the wheel in this event seems to have been too slow on
the response and missed the YIELD sign as well. I will write to the
city council to see if YIELD signs twice as large and on both sides of
the lane can be installed.

Occasionally I have the opportunity to confront such a driver at the
following traffic light. The response is that no YIELD sign was seen.

I saw a news clip on KTVU on Friday night. It showed a surprisingly
narrow and rectangular impact zone on the extreme right side of the
windwhield of the Volvo and the broken bicycle leaning against an
embankment that rises above the road, suggesting that this event
occurred somewhere near the summit west of I-280. In the newscast the
driver of the Volvo was said to be drifting to the right of the fog line
traveling 35 mph, slower than is typical for motor traffic along that
section of road.

I speculate that this occurred at or near the top of the hill and that
the octogenarian driver's explanation might be something along the lines
of being blinded by glare since the direction of travel would have been
against the sun at that time of day, especially for someone cresting a
hill. At the top of the hill the road would be curving to the right. A
driver might be tempted to cut the corner tight, moving into the wide
shoulder, perhaps to place more distance between himself and traffic
moving the opposite direction if his vision were impaired.

With an ample and usually clean shoulder along this stretch of road, I
think it's extremely unlikely for the cyclist to have suddenly swerved
into the traffic lane, especially since the cyclist would have heard the
approaching motor traffic.

With regard to the merge of southbound I-280 to eastbound Sand Hill Rd.,
I once exchanged words with a motorist who claimed not to see me. I was
riding my "banana bike" at the time. http://tinyurl.com/2ayfhl

In fairness to that motorist, it can be difficult for one on a
cloverleaf to identify at a quick glance objects on a collision course
since the background is in motion from the motorist's perspective.

One of the problems with this merge is that the cloverleaf lane becomes
the right-hand lane for Sand Hill Rd. eastbound. In spite of the YIELD
sign, motorists know they needn't worry about motor traffic, and usually
take the cloverleaf at speed. And, we all know that bicycle traffic is
the last thing on their minds.

I'm usually moving at a good clip from the downhill to the west, so
nowadays if I see conflicting traffic on the cloverleaf I stay in the
_left_ lane at this merge and then sort things out with motor traffic on
the overpass after the merge zone when there are fewer variables for the
motorists to deal with.

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau writes:

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_5996444

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and not long ago:

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=70216

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those who know the route might have a difficult time understanding
these events, the road being straight with good visibility.

"both traveling eastbound." The evidence suggests that either the
rider had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the car, or
the driver had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the
bike.
Rider was 67, driver 87. At this point it's mostly conjecture, but
the way to bet in these sorts of rear-ender accidents is against the
driver.

After finding other news clips it appears that this occurred at the
classic place where car drivers ignore right-of-way signs. I cross
that spot often and am pressed by cars that ignore the YIELD sign and
try to bluff the bicyclist into stopping for them. I keep a sharp eye
on the driver without turning my head so I can see what his plans are.

The old guy at the wheel in this event seems to have been too slow on
the response and missed the YIELD sign as well. I will write to the
city council to see if YIELD signs twice as large and on both sides of
the lane can be installed.

Occasionally I have the opportunity to confront such a driver at the
following traffic light. The response is that no YIELD sign was seen.

Jobst Brandt

I don't quite understand what kind of yield signs you are talking
about. Were both driver and cyclist on the same road going in the same
direction as the article said or was one merging from a different
roadway?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob Hunt writes:

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_5996444

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and not long ago:

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=70216

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Those who know the route might have a difficult time
> understanding these events, the road being straight with good
> visibility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"both traveling eastbound." The evidence suggests that either the
rider had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the car, or
the driver had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the
bike. Rider was 67, driver 87. At this point it's mostly
conjecture, but the way to bet in these sorts of rear-ender
accidents is against the driver.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After finding other news clips it appears that this occurred at the
classic place where car drivers ignore right-of-way signs. I cross
that spot often and am pressed by cars that ignore the YIELD sign
and try to bluff the bicyclist into stopping for them. I keep a
sharp eye on the driver without turning my head so I can see what
his plans are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The old guy at the wheel in this event seems to have been too slow
on the response and missed the YIELD sign as well. I will write to
the city council to see if YIELD signs twice as large and on both
sides of the lane can be installed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Occasionally I have the opportunity to confront such a driver at
the following traffic light. The response is that no YIELD sign
was seen.

Quoted message said:

I don't quite understand what kind of yield signs you are talking
about. Were both driver and cyclist on the same road going in the
same direction as the article said or was one merging from a
different roadway?

Read Bill Bushnell's take on this incident for more information on
where this occurred. As far as both car and rider being in the same
lane after the cloverleaf ramp merges with Sand Hill Rd., I think you
can decipher that riddle from the words, taken verbatim.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Bob Hunt writes:

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_5996444

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> and not long ago:

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=70216

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Those who know the route might have a difficult time
>> understanding these events, the road being straight with good
>> visibility.
> "both traveling eastbound." The evidence suggests that either the
> rider had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the car, or
> the driver had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the
> bike. Rider was 67, driver 87. At this point it's mostly
> conjecture, but the way to bet in these sorts of rear-ender
> accidents is against the driver.
After finding other news clips it appears that this occurred at the
classic place where car drivers ignore right-of-way signs. I cross
that spot often and am pressed by cars that ignore the YIELD sign
and try to bluff the bicyclist into stopping for them. I keep a
sharp eye on the driver without turning my head so I can see what
his plans are.
The old guy at the wheel in this event seems to have been too slow
on the response and missed the YIELD sign as well. I will write to
the city council to see if YIELD signs twice as large and on both
sides of the lane can be installed.
Occasionally I have the opportunity to confront such a driver at
the following traffic light. The response is that no YIELD sign
was seen.

I don't quite understand what kind of yield signs you are talking
about. Were both driver and cyclist on the same road going in the
same direction as the article said or was one merging from a
different roadway?

Read Bill Bushnell's take on this incident for more information on
where this occurred. As far as both car and rider being in the same
lane after the cloverleaf ramp merges with Sand Hill Rd., I think you
can decipher that riddle from the words, taken verbatim.

Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So the two were actually merging traffic, one (presumably the driver)
entering a roadway from a ramp? Then the news account was poorly
written and I understand your yield sign remarks. Thanks.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob Hunt writes:

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_5996444

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> and not long ago:

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=70216

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> Those who know the route might have a difficult time
>>> understanding these events, the road being straight with good
>>> visibility.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "both traveling eastbound." The evidence suggests that either
>> the rider had a deadly oops that sent him into the path of the
>> car, or the driver had a deadly oops that sent him into the path
>> of the bike. Rider was 67, driver 87. At this point it's mostly
>> conjecture, but the way to bet in these sorts of rear-ender
>> accidents is against the driver.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> After finding other news clips it appears that this occurred at
> the classic place where car drivers ignore right-of-way signs. I
> cross that spot often and am pressed by cars that ignore the
> YIELD sign and try to bluff the bicyclist into stopping for them.
> I keep a sharp eye on the driver without turning my head so I can
> see what his plans are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The old guy at the wheel in this event seems to have been too
> slow on the response and missed the YIELD sign as well. I will
> write to the city council to see if YIELD signs twice as large
> and on both sides of the lane can be installed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Occasionally I have the opportunity to confront such a driver at
> the following traffic light. The response is that no YIELD sign
> was seen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't quite understand what kind of yield signs you are talking
about. Were both driver and cyclist on the same road going in the
same direction as the article said or was one merging from a
different roadway?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Read Bill Bushnell's take on this incident for more information on
where this occurred. As far as both car and rider being in the
same lane after the cloverleaf ramp merges with Sand Hill Rd., I
think you can decipher that riddle from the words, taken verbatim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

So the two were actually merging traffic, one (presumably the
driver) entering a roadway from a ramp? Then the news account was
poorly written and I understand your yield sign remarks. Thanks.

Inspecting the scene of the incident with a bikie who arrived at the
scene a few seconds after the rider was struck on that day, I was able
to piece together the following.

The incident occurred at the exact top of Sand Hill Rd. (at the
surveyors monument in the center of the road) a long sweeping 60mph
curve (speed limit 55mph). The impact of the rider, struck from
behind, indented the right front of the 78-year old driver's Volvo as
much as 4 inches, knocked out the windshield, and strongly bent the
right window post, debris of which landed with bicycle and rider on
the right edge of the 10-foot wide shoulder beyond the lane edge
stripe, an integral part of smooth asphalt paved Sand Hill Rd.

The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
such a situation would be.

That subsequent merging of the southbound cloverleaf ramp from I280
with San Hill Rd. is dangerous is not lessened by this event.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
such a situation would be.

Jobst:

I rode westbound past the spot late Monday afternoon, and while I didn't stop to
inspect the area on foot, I distinctly recall seeing fresh (dark) dotted skid marks
(skip-skid-skip-skid) astride the fog line on the eastbound side of the road starting
near the crest of the hill and continuing east for a hundred yards or so. Did you
see these? If they match the Volvo their presence would be consistent with the
explanation I heard that the motorist had drifted into the shoulder.

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

Bill Bushnell said:

Quoted message said:

The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
such a situation would be.

Quoted message said:

I rode westbound past the spot late Monday afternoon, and while I
didn't stop to inspect the area on foot, I distinctly recall seeing
fresh (dark) dotted skid marks (skip-skid-skip-skid) astride the fog
line on the eastbound side of the road starting near the crest of
the hill and continuing east for a hundred yards or so. Did you see
these? If they match the Volvo their presence would be consistent
with the explanation I heard that the motorist had drifted into the
shoulder.

Marks on a white stripe can be a lot older because the slick surface
makes better traction and melts to include tire rubber in the white
surface. You'll notice that when cars cut the edge- or centerline
when cornering because they squeal only when on the stripe. Had there
been any strong braking, clear parallel dark tracks would have been
present on the asphalt. The investigating officers spray painted
every mark on the road even places where objects lay after the
incident. There were no paint lines around any brake tracks.

Jobst Brandt

Bill Bushnell said:

Quoted message said:

The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
such a situation would be.

Jobst:

I rode westbound past the spot late Monday afternoon, and while I didn't stop to
inspect the area on foot, I distinctly recall seeing fresh (dark) dotted skid marks
(skip-skid-skip-skid) astride the fog line on the eastbound side of the road starting
near the crest of the hill and continuing east for a hundred yards or so. Did you
see these? If they match the Volvo their presence would be consistent with the
explanation I heard that the motorist had drifted into the shoulder.

--
Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/

The marks you describe are typical of marks left at the end of a
"panic stop" made by an anti-lock brake equipped car so if they are
100 yards long, why did the car not stop until it had traveled,
according to Jobst's figures, an additional 100 yards? I think the
conclusion you've drawn from your casual ride-by inspection is
mistaken. Either that or one of you (Jobst or you) is simply trolling.
Jobst can be abrasive at times but I've never seen him post anything
I'd call a troll- unless it was election time.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob said:

Bill Bushnell said:

Quoted message said:

The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
such a situation would be.

Jobst:

I rode westbound past the spot late Monday afternoon, and while I didn't stop to
inspect the area on foot, I distinctly recall seeing fresh (dark) dotted skid marks
(skip-skid-skip-skid) astride the fog line on the eastbound side of the road starting
near the crest of the hill and continuing east for a hundred yards or so. Did you
see these? If they match the Volvo their presence would be consistent with the
explanation I heard that the motorist had drifted into the shoulder.

--
Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/

Quoted message said:

The marks you describe are typical of marks left at the end of a
"panic stop" made by an anti-lock brake equipped car so if they are
100 yards long, why did the car not stop until it had traveled,
according to Jobst's figures, an additional 100 yards? I think the
conclusion you've drawn from your casual ride-by inspection is
mistaken. Either that or one of you (Jobst or you) is simply trolling.
Jobst can be abrasive at times but I've never seen him post anything
I'd call a troll- unless it was election time.

No one is trolling. We're trying to understand what happened.

I'm not sure Jobst saw the same marks I saw. The marks I saw were on bare asphalt
astride the fog line, one on each side, but neither mark crossed the fog line. They
started near top of the hill, and appeared fresh. As I said, I was riding by on the
other side of the road and didn't stop to look for spray paint marks or to measure
the skid marks' length. They were maybe 100 yards long, maybe longer. It's possible
that their presence is coincidental, but maybe not. I wish I had taken a picture of
them. Unless someone has washed them off, they're probably still there.

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Bushnell said:

Bob said:

Bill Bushnell said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
> marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
> impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
> unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
> belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
> such a situation would be.

Jobst:

I rode westbound past the spot late Monday afternoon, and while I didn't
stop to
inspect the area on foot, I distinctly recall seeing fresh (dark) dotted
skid marks
(skip-skid-skip-skid) astride the fog line on the eastbound side of the
road starting
near the crest of the hill and continuing east for a hundred yards or so.
Did you
see these? If they match the Volvo their presence would be consistent
with the
explanation I heard that the motorist had drifted into the shoulder.

--
Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/

Quoted message said:

The marks you describe are typical of marks left at the end of a
"panic stop" made by an anti-lock brake equipped car so if they are
100 yards long, why did the car not stop until it had traveled,
according to Jobst's figures, an additional 100 yards? I think the
conclusion you've drawn from your casual ride-by inspection is
mistaken. Either that or one of you (Jobst or you) is simply trolling.
Jobst can be abrasive at times but I've never seen him post anything
I'd call a troll- unless it was election time.

No one is trolling. We're trying to understand what happened.

I'm not sure Jobst saw the same marks I saw. The marks I saw were on bare
asphalt
astride the fog line, one on each side, but neither mark crossed the fog
line. They
started near top of the hill, and appeared fresh. As I said, I was riding by
on the
other side of the road and didn't stop to look for spray paint marks or to
measure
the skid marks' length. They were maybe 100 yards long, maybe longer. It's
possible
that their presence is coincidental, but maybe not. I wish I had taken a
picture of
them. Unless someone has washed them off, they're probably still there.

A hundred yards long?

I know nothing about accident reconstruction. But the vehicle that made
those marks was either very heavy, traveling very fast, or both.

No, seriously, a hundred yards long? Because a Chevy Tahoe, which weighs
3 tons with a driver in it, will stop from 70 mph in 201 feet:

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/10486/2007-chevrolet-tahoe-ltz-spec
s-page4.html

Mind you, that may be a really good performance, as an Audi A4
(admittedly, a "small" sedan that weighs more than 3600 pounds) put in a
180-foot stopping distance.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Bill Bushnell said:

Bob said:

Bill Bushnell said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
> marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
> impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
> unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
> belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
> such a situation would be.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I rode westbound past the spot late Monday afternoon, and while I didn't stop to
inspect the area on foot, I distinctly recall seeing fresh (dark) dotted skid marks
(skip-skid-skip-skid) astride the fog line on the eastbound side of the road starting
near the crest of the hill and continuing east for a hundred yards or so. Did you
see these? If they match the Volvo their presence would be consistent with the
explanation I heard that the motorist had drifted into the shoulder.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--
Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/

The marks you describe are typical of marks left at the end of a
"panic stop" made by an anti-lock brake equipped car so if they are
100 yards long, why did the car not stop until it had traveled,
according to Jobst's figures, an additional 100 yards? I think the
conclusion you've drawn from your casual ride-by inspection is
mistaken. Either that or one of you (Jobst or you) is simply trolling.
Jobst can be abrasive at times but I've never seen him post anything
I'd call a troll- unless it was election time.

No one is trolling. We're trying to understand what happened.

I'm not sure Jobst saw the same marks I saw. The marks I saw were on bare asphalt
astride the fog line, one on each side, but neither mark crossed the fog line. They
started near top of the hill, and appeared fresh. As I said, I was riding by on the
other side of the road and didn't stop to look for spray paint marks or to measure
the skid marks' length. They were maybe 100 yards long, maybe longer. It's possible
that their presence is coincidental, but maybe not. I wish I had taken a picture of
them. Unless someone has washed them off, they're probably still there.

--
Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Since you aren't trolling I'd have to say that the marks you saw were
either unrelated to the crash Jobst was talking about or your casual
inspection of them left you with a mistaken impression both because of
the type of marks you describe (see my previous post) and because a
300' skid mark is a *very* long skid mark. An easy way to get a rough
idea of the length of a skid mark is to count the stripes on the
roadway. The standard white stripe on a high way is 15' long and the
standard distance between them is 10' so you just count the stripes
and do the math. BTW, if the marks are astride the fog line as you say
then didn't at least the right side wheels cross that line? ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob said:

Bill Bushnell said:

Bob said:

On May 30, 5:15 pm, Bill Bushnell <[email hidden]> wrote:
> [email hidden] wrote:
> > The driver did not apply his brakes sufficiently to leave any tire
> > marks, stopping his car more than 200 yards beyond the point of
> > impact. His comment to the police was that the bicyclist swerved
> > unavoidably in front of him, although the absence of a skid mark
> > belies that claim, considering what an average driver's response in
> > such a situation would be.

Quoted message said:

> Jobst:

Quoted message said:

> I rode westbound past the spot late Monday afternoon, and while I didn't stop to
> inspect the area on foot, I distinctly recall seeing fresh (dark) dotted skid marks
> (skip-skid-skip-skid) astride the fog line on the eastbound side of the road starting
> near the crest of the hill and continuing east for a hundred yards or so. Did you
> see these? If they match the Volvo their presence would be consistent with the
> explanation I heard that the motorist had drifted into the shoulder.

Quoted message said:

> --
> Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/
The marks you describe are typical of marks left at the end of a
"panic stop" made by an anti-lock brake equipped car so if they are
100 yards long, why did the car not stop until it had traveled,
according to Jobst's figures, an additional 100 yards? I think the
conclusion you've drawn from your casual ride-by inspection is
mistaken. Either that or one of you (Jobst or you) is simply trolling.
Jobst can be abrasive at times but I've never seen him post anything
I'd call a troll- unless it was election time.

No one is trolling. We're trying to understand what happened.

I'm not sure Jobst saw the same marks I saw. The marks I saw were on bare asphalt
astride the fog line, one on each side, but neither mark crossed the fog line. They
started near top of the hill, and appeared fresh. As I said, I was riding by on the
other side of the road and didn't stop to look for spray paint marks or to measure
the skid marks' length. They were maybe 100 yards long, maybe longer. It's possible
that their presence is coincidental, but maybe not. I wish I had taken a picture of
them. Unless someone has washed them off, they're probably still there.

--
Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/- Hide quoted text -

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Quoted message said:

Since you aren't trolling I'd have to say that the marks you saw were
either unrelated to the crash Jobst was talking about or your casual
inspection of them left you with a mistaken impression both because of
the type of marks you describe (see my previous post) and because a
300' skid mark is a *very* long skid mark. An easy way to get a rough
idea of the length of a skid mark is to count the stripes on the
roadway. The standard white stripe on a high way is 15' long and the
standard distance between them is 10' so you just count the stripes
and do the math. BTW, if the marks are astride the fog line as you say
then didn't at least the right side wheels cross that line? ;-)

I visited the site again and inspected more carefully. I saw some marks on the
road, painted in bright orange/red spraypaint and a makeshift roadside memorial. I
also saw about 300' further down the road the marks that looked like skid marks but
turned out to be parallel dotted oil splats approximately the width of a car.
Their length was closer to 50' than to 300'. I also saw some spray-painted markings
after these dotted oil splats that appeared to be in similar condition as the spray
painted markings on the road near the memorial.

If anyone is still interested I took a low-resolution movie as I rode past all of
this at low speed. (It takes a few minutes to load.) One can only see the roadside
memorial and the oil splats. They appear near the end of the movie as the road
starts to descend. I also took some photos of the spray painted marks.

http://tinyurl.com/2xqc9y

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/