frame material, steel vs aluminum

one more thing
i am "big"
230lbs and 5'11.5"
on the other forum that makes me a "clydesdale"
does that info help with deciding on a frame material or type of bike?

PLEASE,
26 views and no reply!
Tell me what y'all think...
Thanks

archermd said:

one more thing
i am "big"
230lbs and 5'11.5"
on the other forum that makes me a "clydesdale"
does that info help with deciding on a frame material or type of bike?

Both materials have been used to make good frames, but both have also been used to make bad frames. The best way to decide if a bike suits you is to ride it, just knowing the frame material won't help much.

If you want to read more on the subject I'd suggest:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

archermd said:

PLEASE,
26 views and no reply!
Tell me what y'all think...
Thanks

FWIW. I vote for "steel" over other materials if everything else is equal AND you aren't racing the bike ... steel will endure unintended abuse that many other materials (Titanium is the exception) are often not capable of withstanding.

A true cyclocross frame won't have water bottle mounts OR fender mounts ... but, there are certainly dual-purpose CX frames/bikes out there which are really light-touring frames/bikes.

Now, FWIW, it is my observation that the RIDE of a steel framed bike of any given geometry is the benchmark that a framebuilder hopes to achieve when using a lighter material ... some steel bikes, of course, ride better than others -- the good ones are actually very good, and the very good ones can probably be described as being great.

archermd said:

the thread title says it all
about to buy a specialized tricross sport or comp
then i read (on another fourm site) that steel is a nice(r) frame material
it is more forgiving and durable so they say
and the guys posting on that other site appear to know their stuff
so i need some advice
also, they suggested i look at touring bikes vs cyclocross
so, anybody want to offer some advice?

As an owner of both aluminium and steel bikes, I vote steel. I find the quality of ride to be really nice (although that can be largely geometry as well). They are long lived so long as you take precuations to avoid rusting. It has to be said that each frame material has it's advocates and a lot of people will rightly (I imagine) argue that the material is only a minor part of the equation.

However, having winessed more fatigue failed bits of aluminium, than I ever have steel, my own view is firmly that since it rides well and is strong it would be my first choice every time.

thanks for the reply
here is more info
i can get trek 520 stel touring at large and pupolar lbs
this lbs is a specialized/trek shop, in thagt order
no speciazed steel frame and trek only makes one
i can go to a small lbs nearby for a jamis or fuji bike
they make more steel frames than trek
but this small shop moved 1 yr ago to new location due to competition
they do like steel frames at the smaller shop
it was the other larger lbs that won the business volume
so i fear the longevity of the smaller shop is in question
the specialized tricross has water bottle and rack mounting points
so there is my dilema
what to buy
what to buy
and from which shop

how big an issue is the rust factor?
aren't these bike made of some sort of painted stainless material?
shouldn't they be sort of rust-resistant or even rust-proof for the $ spent?

archermd said:

thanks for the reply
here is more info
i can get trek 520 stel touring at large and pupolar lbs
this lbs is a specialized/trek shop, in thagt order
no speciazed steel frame and trek only makes one
i can go to a small lbs nearby for a jamis or fuji bike
they make more steel frames than trek
but this small shop moved 1 yr ago to new location due to competition
they do like steel frames at the smaller shop
it was the other larger lbs that won the business volume
so i fear the longevity of the smaller shop is in question
the specialized tricross has water bottle and rack mounting points
so there is my dilema
what to buy
what to buy
and from which shop

You probably won't be disappointed with either the FUJI or JAMIS (or, even the TREK) ... amongst those, I'd probably opt for the FUJI -- I have a vintage FUJI, so I have a positive bias toward their products.

BTW. Don't let the shop's size influence your potential purchase. While the small shop may suddenly go-out-of-business if the owner were to have an auto accident or other medical emergency, the large shop could relocate further away more readily than the small one if the controlling interests are located elsewhere ...

Regardless, you should learn to do most of the bicycle maintenance & servicing yourself EVEN IF you have a shop do it ... you really only have to worry about any shop staying in business for the warranty period of a new bike, and even then most manufacturers will support their product without a sales receipt.

thanks
and the rust factor?
if it is a real issue, i might be swayed to ge the specialized tricross comp

archermd said:

how big an issue is the rust factor?
aren't these bike made of some sort of painted stainless material?
shouldn't they be sort of rust-resistant or even rust-proof for the $ spent?

Rust is generally NOT a big factor unless you are locking/leaving your bike outside so that someone can come along and borrow it ... OR, if you live very near to salt water, then it can become a big factor ... OR, if you are prone to dumping it into a nearby pond then problems may occur ... OR, if you store the bike in a damp cellar over the winter months.

Yes, there are materials you can coat the inside of the tubes with ... this requires minor disassembly ... there are special products (i.e. they cost more), or you can use motor oil -- in either case, put the excess that drains out of the frame back into the suitable container.

And, paint is what protects the outside, so if the paint is scratched or chipped, it should be touched up.

If you ride in the rain, frequently, then wipe the bike down after THOSE rides & remove the seatpost to let any trapped moisture vent ... invert the bike to pour out any possible water infiltration if you ride through puddles-OR-deeper-water.

You should probably get in the habit of wiping down (dusting off) your bike after every ride regardless of the material it is made of ...

Stainless steel frames are rare & expensive.

archermd said:

thanks
and the rust factor?
if it is a real issue, i might be swayed to ge the specialized tricross comp

ALSO, FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION ...

Most ships (vs. boats) are steel ...

Most automobiles are steel ...

If either is neglected, it is subject to rust ... if maintained, it will last as long as intended.

Untreated aluminum storm doors oxidize ...

So, "waxing" a bike's painted finish (Pledge-type furniture polish is suitable) is a good idea regardless of the frame's material.

now i must admit the waxing of the frame is a new one
i have not heard nor read that elsewhere
anyway
see my posts above
trek touring steel vs fuji vs jamis
color of frame is nicer in jamis and fuji
ease of purchase and anxiety factor re shop life favors trek
it is dull but stealthy in black
i am still drawn to that specialized tricross comp
it has lots of carbon elements to dampen vibration
is that enough
is it too much bike
is it the wrong bike
all subjective to the rider, i understand
but i valua any and all online help and advice i can get

archermd said:

now i must admit the waxing of the frame is a new one
i have not heard nor read that elsewhere
anyway
see my posts above
trek touring steel vs fuji vs jamis
color of frame is nicer in jamis and fuji
ease of purchase and anxiety factor re shop life favors trek
it is dull but stealthy in black
i am still drawn to that specialized tricross comp
it has lots of carbon elements to dampen vibration
is that enough
is it too much bike
is it the wrong bike
all subjective to the rider, i understand
but i valua any and all online help and advice i can get

Carbon Fiber will generally NOT dampen vibration more than steel ... it MAY (or, may not!) dampen vibration more than aluminum (it really depends on the frame builder).

Carbon Fiber IS lighter ...

A good Carbon Fiber fork emulates the ride of a good steel fork.

A few years ago, Colnago, specifically, mated Carbon Fiber rear stays to it's Titanium frame to stiffen the rear triangle!

If weight is a factor & cost isn't, then there are better choices -- for example, the Colnago cyclocross frame which is now Carbon Fiber instead of aluminum.

A friend with whom I was talking about bikes over the weekend who (like you) is thinking about a quasi-CX frame (for commuting, in his case) eschewed the notion of steel -- he declared that he would never buy a steel bike ... but, he is a closet weight weenie and covet's another friend's sub-16 (15?) pound Giant -- full CAMPAGNOLO RECORD & the last I heard he was planning on a pair of LIGHTWEIGHT (that's a brand) tubular wheels -- since his 17 lb. bike is now deemed to be porky. The friend with the "porky" bike could knock over a pound off his bike by switching to CAMPAGNOLO RECORD components & LIGHTWEIGHT wheels (vs. the DA 7703 group & older, Ksyrium SSC SL clincher wheelset) ... but, can't make the conceptual leap since he is looking at the frame's bare weight over the components and/or the bikes as a whole even though he knows that different components have different weights.

If you want someone to reenforce your inclination toward the Specialized, just wait ... eventually, someone/many will probably come out of the woodwork!

BTW. Bike manufacturers LOVE people like you because it probably costs them well under $100 for a Carbon Fiber rear stay assembly (for example), but they can bump up the retail price by between $200-to-$400 while saving manufacturing time ... a double return on their investment. There is less premium on a Carbon Fiber fork, now, but a premium does exist for an OEM Carbon Fiber fork well beyond the cost. That is to say, some Carbon Fiber material is better than others ... and/or, more meaningful in some applications than in others. Similarly, those "inserts" that Specialized uses on some of its frames, BTW, to further dampen vibration strike me as more of a gimmick than not, but I haven't ridden one of those Specialized frames.

If your personal memory goes back far enough, you can consider a lot of the Carbon Fiber found on a bike to be be akin to the chrome on a 50s vintage automobile ... more bling (nothing wrong with that, BTW) than zing.

BTW2. Yes, I actually do have a Carbon Fiber ROAD frame ... it doesn't ride any better (okay, I'm not diving into any 90º turns at over 25mph ... so, there may be a difference at race speeds) than my steel framed bike whose main triangle geometry is (fortuituously) exactly the same. There is, however, what may be considered to be a significant difference in the weight of the two bikes even with the components on the older, steel frame being (for the most part) comparable.

alfeng
thanks for the long and very helpful reply
i am not as brand and tech savvy as i would like or as you may think
i will look up the brands of components you mentioned
and as a critical thinker and on who tends to obsess before any big purchase
i too have ben skeptical of what the specialized carbon (zertz)n inserts can do
seems gimmick to me too
but everyone uses a carbon fork
ok not everyone but you get my point
ans many use carbon seat stays, seat posts, etc...
in the final analysis, a steel touring frame will cost less
will be stronger and more durable
will be heavier
but then if i like the whole riding thing
i could get a true all carbon road bike next...
am i making some sense, finally
and if so, do i go with the easy buy and get the trek 520
or jamis vs fuji, and if so which one
or do i seek a surly crosscheck and get a steel cx instead of a tourer
or a surly long haul trucker
or a kona
all of these will be harder to find but may be worth it
so i think i will get a steel steed to ride and get out there, finally
which one?

archermd said:

alfeng
thanks for the long and very helpful reply
i am not as brand and tech savvy as i would like or as you may think
i will look up the brands of components you mentioned
and as a critical thinker and on who tends to obsess before any big purchase
i too have ben skeptical of what the specialized carbon (zertz)n inserts can do
seems gimmick to me too
but everyone uses a carbon fork
ok not everyone but you get my point
ans many use carbon seat stays, seat posts, etc...
in the final analysis, a steel touring frame will cost less
will be stronger and more durable
will be heavier
but then if i like the whole riding thing
i could get a true all carbon road bike next...
am i making some sense, finally
and if so, do i go with the easy buy and get the trek 520
or jamis vs fuji, and if so which one
or do i seek a surly crosscheck and get a steel cx instead of a tourer
or a surly long haul trucker
or a kona
all of these will be harder to find but may be worth it
so i think i will get a steel steed to ride and get out there, finally
which one?

I've never lived particularly close to any bike shop (at least, not the one I wanted to shop at) ... or, at least that's the way it seemed/seems since distance is a relative thing with age and/or modes of travel.

So, unless you are planning on going to the shop every other week AND it isn't within 15 miles (a very arbitrary distance ... make that distance a half-hour's drive) & not close to anything else that you might have a reason to go to OR it isn't on your way to-from-work/wherever, I really wouldn't worry about the smaller shop being further away.

Presuming the geometry of the various frames is similar, then if the components are the same, the cosmetic issues do come into play AND are a valid basis by which many people buy their bikes ... because it often helps if you like the way your bike looks as much as how it rides.

When Lance Armstrong was winning consecutive Tour de France titles, TREK became a much more popular brand ... is it worth the probably-$200 premium over the FUJI or JAMIS? You decide?

It's okay to let your sense of aesthetics & budget be your guide ...

BUT, I now feel compelled to dissuading you from the SPECIALIZED TriCross because it uses an integrated headset (VERY COMMON, now, with non-steel frames at all price levels) ... there STILL isn't a standard, AFAIK. This can be a potential servicing problem with even a "popular" size at some point in the future if manufacturers ever gravitate to one size as a standard and abandon the others. Probably NOT a factor in the next half-dozen years, but ...

BTW. At this point in time, I would say "NO" to any SURLY ... nothing wrong with SURLY, per se, but then YOU would have to spec the components & the final price could easily be close to 2x the price of the FUJI, JAMIS, or TREK bikes you are looking at because you would probably end up with 105-or-better components. WHERE you are in New Jersey can dictate which components you want ... if you are in the hilly part, then you really want Campagnolo shifters, IMO (Campagnolo shifters can be used with Shimano derailleurs/cassettes, but not vice-versa) ... if you are in the flatter part, anything will do.

ALSO, SURLY frames seem heavy ... you would be paying almost a boutique price for a frame that is pretty much what used to be a frame on a mid-range bike ... I love mid-range bikes, but why pay the premium for the SURLY decal on the frame?

If your inclination reverts to an aluminum frame, then depending on the type of riding you think you will be doing, you may actually want to consider a 29er with a solid front fork ... it will be probably be heavier than a touring bike (because of the larger wheels), but potentially more versatile than any other frame -- you can use ANY size 700c tire ... from 700x19 up to 700x58 (okay, the smaller tires require a different rim/wheel than the larger tires & may look a bit odd, but who cares?). If you decide you want a front suspension fork for the frame, it probably won't cost you any more to have it installed LATER than the price differential you would have paid in the beginning.

The key difference between a 29er (besides the wider stays) and a CX frame is the more MTB-like top tube -- the top tube is more sloped AND longer because the presumption is that you are using flat bars. The 29er will be more robust than a CX frame since it is actually intended to be used on trails.

Depending on your perspective, a 29er could be thought of as either a glorified HYBRID or a grown-up MTB.

GARY FISHER (currently, a subsidiary of TREK) makes most of the 29ers, so your TREK dealer may carry them, also.

um, sorry for mt ignorance but...

what is a headset?
what does it do, and where is it on the bike?
is that the only reason to avoid the tricross comp?

archermd said:

um, sorry for mt ignorance but...

what is a headset?
what does it do, and where is it on the bike?
is that the only reason to avoid the tricross comp?

The headset connects the fork to the frame ... it is comprised of two "rings" of loose bearings OR two "rings" of bearings in a cages OR two cartridge bearings OR similar configuration.

BTW/FYI. If this thread goes on long enough, you will not only have a better idea about which bike to buy, but ...

Here's some buying information which you can really use regardless of the bike you decide on -- ALL 2007 bikes will be ~20% less than retail after June 30th if they haven't already been discounted ... last year's unsold bikes are cheaper than current bikes ... as yet unsold bikes from 2005-or-before will be even less expensive!

Now, between the SPECIALIZED Tricross Sport & Tricross Comp, because the frames are apparently the same, and as good as the 105 Shimano 10-speed components are (and, they are VERY GOOD) on the Tricross Comp, I would personally get the Tricross Sport and then install a Campagnolo Veloce drivetrain & conversion cassette (e.g., Wheels Manufacturing OR American Classic) for the price difference ... sell the Tiagra shifters/cassette/etc., and subsequently/probably have some "spare change" left over.

Actually, I'd just switch shifters (new 10 speed Veloce shifters are generally about $100US on eBay ... while "new" Tiagra shifters sell for more than that on eBay ... the Veloce shifters are actually superior, but lack any of the Lance-Effect premium) & use the hubbub.com alternate derailleur cable connection & keep the drivetrain on the Sport as a 9-speed. At some point, if inclined, I would change the other components.

How & where do you intend to ride the bike? I guess that should be a critical consideration, if not the most critical followed by any budget considerations.

biking for me will be mostly paved roads and perhaps a few dirt roads
maybe even some rails-to-trails or other non-paved rides
thus my desire for a cx/s wider tire, or a touring's wider tire
still can't get away from the spec tricross sport/comp option
worried about weight of steel, bending rear triangle elements
(mentioned by someone else about a surly they owned)
worried about bike shop issues
do not want to make a mistake
don't want to be fooled IF the spec zertz carbon inserts are really just gimick
so what do i do
what do i do
ugh

alfeng said:

Now, between the SPECIALIZED Tricross Sport & Tricross Comp, because the frames are apparently the same

Are you sure about that? Their website says the two are made from different aluminium alloys, and the Comp gets carbon seat stays and different wheels. I've no idea if there is really much difference in the types of aluminium though. If you just meant the geometry, then yeah, they match.