New Bike - Do I need to adjust the headset?

Uncle Choppy said:

I am trying to make sure that everything is set right. I keep reading
that ideally the handlebars should obscure my view of the front hub
when riding normally.

Ummmm, I've never read that... Surely it will depend on your riding
position, and your personal physiology, and that can be very
different between different riders on different bikes?

Quoted message said:

Does this mean that I need to lower the bars to bring my upper body
forward a bit?

Is the bike comfortable to sit on and to pedal? If so, don't worry
about it.

Quoted message said:

What I don't understand is this: the stem is attached to a tube (I
think this is called the "headset" according to the pictures on
Sheldon Brown's wonderful website). On my bike there is a 5cm "spacer"
on this tube which makes the bars sit relatively high. However, when I
look at other pictures of the Marin Muirwoods, they do not seem to
have such a large spacer, i.e. there is a much shorter length of
headset coming out of the "head tube" (thanks again Sheldon!).

A spacer gives you an option of taking the bars lower. If you find
them too high you can either shorten the spacer or take it out
altogether. OTOH, if the bars are too low you're snookered without
a much more expensive operation. It's good to get spacers with new
bikes so you can shorten them to suit *you*.

Quoted message said:

Is my jumbo headset because my bike has a small, 15" frame?

That's quite small... how small are you?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Uncle Choppy said:

Hello Again & sorry to be a pest.

I have had my bike, a Marin Muirwoods hybrid, for just over a week now
and have ridden 100 miles on it!
Although this is nothing for you proper cyling types I am quite proud
of myself for dragging my fat, 40-year-old body this distance (I
normally break into a sweat at the thought of driving my car 100
miles!).

I am trying to make sure that everything is set right. I keep reading
that ideally the handlebars should obscure my view of the front hub
when riding normally.

The only "should" you should be doing is ingnoring silly rules like that.
Different people like different positions. Only adjust the height or reach
(if possible) if you are not comfortable -- whatever way you think might
help.

/snip

Quoted message said:

the handlebar stem height seems to be non-
adjustable, this is a job that needs to be done at the bike shop and
presumably involves a hacksaw?

What I don't understand is this: the stem is attached to a tube (I
think this is called the "headset" according to the pictures on
Sheldon Brown's wonderful website).

No, the tube is the forks' steer tube aka "steerer". The headset is the
bearings and the various bits containing the bearings in between the frame
and the forks. On your bike it'll be a threadless headset, aka A-Head or
ahead.

Quoted message said:

On my bike there is a 5cm "spacer"
on this tube which makes the bars sit relatively high. However, when I
look at other pictures of the Marin Muirwoods, they do not seem to
have such a large spacer, i.e. there is a much shorter length of
headset coming out of the "head tube" (thanks again Sheldon!).

To lower the bars, spacers can be moved from below the stem to on top of the
stem, or replaced with shorter ones. The steerer can be cut down with a
pipe cutter or junior hacksaw if you like, but of course don't rush to do
that. It's wise to leave a spacer on top for future adjustment.

The stem could also be turned upside down, or replaced for one with a
different angle.

You're lucky you've got plenty of height to play with. Many people have the
opposite problem.

~PB

On 30/05/2007 19:58, Peter Clinch said,

Quoted message said:

Ummmm, I've never read that... Surely it will depend on your riding
position, and your personal physiology, and that can be very different
between different riders on different bikes?

I've never seen that either. (scurries off to check my bikes...

.....). On my MTB, it just so happens that the bars do more or less
obscure the hub, but that is purely a coincidence based on my preferred
riding position. On my tourer, the hub is ahead of the (drop) bars in
my normal riding position.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

On 30/05/2007 19:43, Uncle Choppy said,

Quoted message said:

Does this mean that I need to lower the bars to bring my upper body
forward a bit?

Not if you're comfortable. From your description of your, er, physical
attributes, you might find a higher bar more comfortable about the
waistband area :-)

Quoted message said:

If so, I assume that, as the handlebar stem height seems to be non-
adjustable, this is a job that needs to be done at the bike shop and
presumably involves a hacksaw?

On a threadless headset you don't need to cut anything to change the
height of the stem. If you do want to lower the bars you can do this by
moving some of the spacers from below the stem to above the stem. This
is actually a very easy adjustment to make, and you might want to learn
how to do this yourself so that you can play around until it feels right
- only you can know when it's right. I'm sure Sheldon has a page on his
site explaining how, or ask your bike shop to show you how.

Oh, and congrats on getting out and about! 100 miles in a week is
nothing to be ashamed of by any means.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Thanks Pete & Pete
I read the "obscuring the hub" thing a few times, on various web
sites.
As a relative newcomer i am unsure when advice is worthwhile or not!
At least with stuff like seat height, even I can do that one and see
whether it feels better or not. The bar height adjustment confused me
for two reasons:

Reason 1. i couldn't see how to adjust it. I now realise that moving a
spacer above the bars is a non-destructive adjustment (I'd never have
thought of that in a month of Sundays - I'm a half-wit!).

Reason 2. I still don't see why my bike looks different to the ones in
the brochure/website. Although I'm still non the wiser on this one, I
am at least aware that it's nicer to have too much bar height than not
enough.

I know that a 15" frame seems small but I am 5"7 with short legs (29
inch inside leg or 31 inch "inseam"😉. As the 15" Marin has a 29 1/4
inch standover height in the middle of the top tube it was one of very
few bikes I can actually get any clearance on.

Cheers
Brendan

in message <[email hidden]>, Uncle

Choppy (') said:

I have had my bike, a Marin Muirwoods hybrid, for just over a week now
and have ridden 100 miles on it!
Although this is nothing for you proper cyling types I am quite proud
of myself for dragging my fat, 40-year-old body this distance (I
normally break into a sweat at the thought of driving my car 100
miles!).

I am trying to make sure that everything is set right. I keep reading
that ideally the handlebars should obscure my view of the front hub
when riding normally. In my case, I can clearly see the hub behind the
bars (i.e. on the seat side of the bars rather than on the front
side).

This is one heuristic for setting up a bike. It's not the only one, and it
may not be the one for you. Specifically it applies to road bikes, and
while it may also work on cross-country mountain bikes with relatively
short travel suspension it most /certainly/ ain't going to work for any
other mountain bike. It also, obviously, only applies to average
proportioned people.

If the bike is otherwise comfortable and you aren't feeling stretched,
don't worry.

Quoted message said:

Does this mean that I need to lower the bars to bring my upper body
forward a bit?

Not unless you're uncomfortable.

Quoted message said:

If so, I assume that, as the handlebar stem height seems to be non-
adjustable, this is a job that needs to be done at the bike shop and
presumably involves a hacksaw?

No. The tube the stem clamps to is the steerer tube which passes through
the headset (which is a pair of bearings). Above the headset on the
steerer tube, but below the stem, is one or more spacers. In the first
instance you can (CAREFULLY):

(1) Remove the top cap from the tube
(2) unclamp and remove the stem
(3) remove the spacers below the stem
(4) replace the stem, but do not tighten the clam bolts
(5) replace the spacers above the stem
(6) replace the top cap, but do not tighten...

....and then the important bit:

(7) tighten the top cap until there is no play in the headset bearing
(8) tighten the clamp bolts on the stem

It's not a good idea to cut the steerer tube shorter until you're
absolutely certain you won't want to raise the bars again.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; When your hammer is C++, everything begins to look like a thumb.

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul Boyd

(') said:

On 30/05/2007 19:58, Peter Clinch said,

Quoted message said:

Ummmm, I've never read that... Surely it will depend on your riding
position, and your personal physiology, and that can be very different
between different riders on different bikes?

I've never seen that either. (scurries off to check my bikes...

....). On my MTB, it just so happens that the bars do more or less
obscure the hub, but that is purely a coincidence based on my preferred
riding position. On my tourer, the hub is ahead of the (drop) bars in
my normal riding position.

On all my bikes, the bars do more or less obscure the front hub - but I
think that's an accident of my personal physiology, and should not be
considered prescriptive for other people.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Conservatives are not necessarily stupid,
;; but most stupid people are conservatives -- J S Mill

Uncle Choppy said:

I have had my bike, a Marin Muirwoods hybrid, for just over a week now
and have ridden 100 miles on it!
Although this is nothing for you proper cyling types I am quite proud
of myself for dragging my fat, 40-year-old body this distance

100 miles is a long way for someone new (or just come back) to cycling.
You should be wary of overdoing it.

Quoted message said:

I know that a 15" frame seems small but I am 5"7 with short legs (29
inch inside leg or 31 inch "inseam"😉. As the 15" Marin has a 29 1/4
inch standover height in the middle of the top tube it was one of very
few bikes I can actually get any clearance on.

I am about 5'8" and one of my bikes has a 19" frame. The other is
slightly larger. (30" inside leg).

Thanks also Paul and Martin.

Martin Dann said:

100 miles is a long way for someone new (or just come back) to cycling.
You should be wary of overdoing it.

I must own up to having had the bike for nine days and I have owned a
cheap bike since Feb. However, I hardly used it as:

1) It is a 19" frame and didn't really have any clearance. It was OK
on the road but didn't feel too good on the local towpaths/trails
(which can get quite bumpy/muddy - I swear that my fillings are slowly
being rattled loose!)

2) On the very first day I tried to commute on it someone pulled out
of a side street and nearly hit me. I slammed the brakes on to avoid
being hit and subsequently flew over the bars into the opposite
carriageway! (Bad braking technique I assume.)
This really shook me up and resulted in me not getting on the bike
again for a couple of months. Because of this sort of thing I'm wary
of riding on the roads round here and most of my 100 miles has been on
the Sankey Valley trail where I can get into St Helens or Warrington
(both about 5 miles away) without interacting with traffic to much.
Today I went out as far as Widnes and back (20 mile round trip) which
is my record. I understand the not overdoing it but I feel great (it's
not like I'm belting along or anything).

Quoted message said:

I am about 5'8" and one of my bikes has a 19" frame. The other is
slightly larger. (30" inside leg).
From what I've read (more internet stuff) the Marins are quite big

bikes for the size - certainly the 15" Muirwoods is only an inch or so
shorter than my 19" bike was. I just like the feel of the Marin and
I'm really enjoying riding it.

Paul Boyd said:

On 30/05/2007 19:43, Uncle Choppy said,

Quoted message said:

Oh, and congrats on getting out and about! 100 miles in a week is
nothing to be ashamed of by any means.

He's putting me to shame.
<http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pGKZxNFTHIab8bOVbp1oYFQ>

My excuse, of course, is that I don't want to leave Kate with too much
of the childminding duties. However, as it's still light outside, I
suppose I could make better use of the evenings once Small's in bed.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

Simon Brooke said:

The tube the stem clamps to is the steerer tube which passes through
the headset (which is a pair of bearings). Above the headset on the
steerer tube, but below the stem, is one or more spacers. In the first
instance you can (CAREFULLY):

(1) Remove the top cap from the tube
(2) unclamp and remove the stem
(3) remove the spacers below the stem
(4) replace the stem, but do not tighten the clam bolts
(5) replace the spacers above the stem
(6) replace the top cap, but do not tighten...

...and then the important bit:

(7) tighten the top cap until there is no play in the headset bearing
(8) tighten the clamp bolts on the stem

It's not a good idea to cut the steerer tube shorter until you're
absolutely certain you won't want to raise the bars again.

Simon - thanks for the above instructions - even I could follow them!

I gave it a shot and found that they are indeed seperate spacers
(2x2cm and 1x1cm) so I've just relocated one of the 2cm ones to above
the stem as per your instructions. I would have been tempted to
tighten the stem clamp bolts BEFORE tightening the top cap so it's
just as well that you gave such precise instructions. I was interested
to find a bit of grit and water inside the stem and this was also a
chance to clean it up a bit.

I have just sat on it and can confirm that I now have about a 50%
eclipse of the front hub so I'll give the new riding position a go
tomorrow and if I don't like it, I can easily revert to the original
set up.

Many Thanks
Brendan

Uncle Choppy said:

2) On the very first day I tried to commute on it someone pulled out
of a side street and nearly hit me. I slammed the brakes on to avoid
being hit and subsequently flew over the bars into the opposite
carriageway! (Bad braking technique I assume.)
This really shook me up and resulted in me not getting on the bike
again for a couple of months. Because of this sort of thing I'm wary
of riding on the roads round here and most of my 100 miles has been on
the Sankey Valley trail where I can get into St Helens or Warrington
(both about 5 miles away) without interacting with traffic to much.

If you haven't already, get yourself a copy of the book highlighted
at http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/ (Amazon usually have it at a very
good price).
I've not seen the brand spanking new edition, but I see no reason
it shouldn't live up to the exceptional standard of previous ones.

Most (all?) of what you'll need to know to stay reasonably safe on
the roads., it's *very* good.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

If you haven't already, get yourself a copy of the book highlighted
at http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/ (Amazon usually have it at a very
good price).

It's on special offer at Waterstones. I got it for less than four pounds
earlier this week.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

On May 30, 9:47 pm, [email hidden] (Ekul

Namsob) said:

Paul Boyd said:

On 30/05/2007 19:43, Uncle Choppy said,
Oh, and congrats on getting out and about! 100 miles in a week is
nothing to be ashamed of by any means.

He's putting me to shame.
<http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pGKZxNFTHIab8bOVbp1oYFQ>

My excuse, of course, is that I don't want to leave Kate with too much
of the childminding duties. However, as it's still light outside, I
suppose I could make better use of the evenings once Small's in bed.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

Luke - I don't think that you need worry.

Looking at your times, you are an EPO-fuelled yellow jersey compared
to my rather more provincial onion-seller pace!
Also I am impressed by your spreadsheet! I might look at getting a
bike computer fitted (I'd not be able to do this myself) as I enjoy
recording the distances I do. At the moment I am using Google's "Gmap
pedometer" to see how long my routes are.

Cheers
Brendan

Uncle Choppy said:

On May 30, 9:47 pm, [email hidden] (Ekul

Namsob) said:

Paul Boyd said:

On 30/05/2007 19:43, Uncle Choppy said,
Oh, and congrats on getting out and about! 100 miles in a week is
nothing to be ashamed of by any means.

He's putting me to shame.
<http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pGKZxNFTHIab8bOVbp1oYFQ>

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Also I am impressed by your spreadsheet! I might look at getting a
bike computer fitted (I'd not be able to do this myself) as I enjoy
recording the distances I do. At the moment I am using Google's "Gmap
pedometer" to see how long my routes are.

Fitting a computer is a piece of cake, but I would recommend getting a
wireless one.

Three steps: attach a sensor to a spoke (it just screws on).

Attach a wireless receiver to a fork near the sensor (with cable ties).

Attach the computer to your bike (with cable ties) and tell it how big
your front wheel is.

Optional fourth step: proclaim Robert your uncle.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

Peter Clinch said:

Uncle Choppy said:

2) On the very first day I tried to commute on it someone pulled out
of a side street and nearly hit me. I slammed the brakes on to avoid
being hit and subsequently flew over the bars into the opposite
carriageway! (Bad braking technique I assume.)
This really shook me up and resulted in me not getting on the bike
again for a couple of months. Because of this sort of thing I'm wary
of riding on the roads round here and most of my 100 miles has been on
the Sankey Valley trail where I can get into St Helens or Warrington
(both about 5 miles away) without interacting with traffic to much.

If you haven't already, get yourself a copy of the book highlighted
athttp://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/(Amazon usually have it at a very
good price).
I've not seen the brand spanking new edition, but I see no reason
it shouldn't live up to the exceptional standard of previous ones.

Most (all?) of what you'll need to know to stay reasonably safe on
the roads., it's *very* good.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Thanks Pete for the Cyclecraft recommendation (and Luke for the
Waterstones tip). I'll definitley get a copy of that.

I do realise that I can't avoid the roads forever and last week I
tried to get in touch with "Cycling Solutions" http://www.cyclingsolutions.co.uk/
who were listed on the CTC site as giving training in Merseyside (I
seem to be on the edge of several regions and therefore central to
none!).
I wanted to see if there was any adult training available but didn't
get a reply to my phone calls or email. I might try St Helens council
as they are also listed but i can't see anything on their website (I
imagine they only do the schools stuff anyway).

Thanks again
Brendan

"Paul Boyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 30/05/2007 19:58, Peter Clinch said,

Quoted message said:

Ummmm, I've never read that... Surely it will depend on your riding
position, and your personal physiology, and that can be very different
between different riders on different bikes?

I've never seen that either. (scurries off to check my bikes...

I've read that, but can't remember where.
Possibly Richard Ballantine?
Peter

in message <[email hidden]>, Uncle

Choppy (') said:

2) On the very first day I tried to commute on it someone pulled out
of a side street and nearly hit me. I slammed the brakes on to avoid
being hit and subsequently flew over the bars into the opposite
carriageway! (Bad braking technique I assume.)

OK, this one's important.

Obviously a bicycle has a high centre of gravity, but that's not the main
reason beginners go over the bars. You think 'oh, I braked too hard and a
bike has a high centre of gravity so I went over the bars - I must
remember not to brake so hard in future'. But that's the wrong conclusion
and doesn't explain the mechanics of what tends to happen.

A beginner grabs the brakes, typically without bracing the arms. The bike
slows rapidly. Because the arms aren't braced, the rider's body doesn't
slow, but continues forward under normal momentum until his or her thighs
hit the handlebars, at which point the bike flips.

Firstly, don't just grab the brakes. If you lock the front wheel you'll not
only lose control but you also won't stop so quickly. Modulate the brakes.
But also, and most importantly, brace your arms. Push yourself back on the
bike. For maximum braking in emergency, get your [censored] out of the saddle
and as far back out over the back wheel as you can. This has two effects:

1) because you've made yourself relatively rigid on the bike, the brakes
slow you as well as slowing the bike. This is the important one.

2) by moving your centre of gravity down and back, you're increasing the
amount of braking force you can achieve before the bike starts to flip.

Remember that in an emergency braking situation you will unweight the rear
wheel, so your back brake does virtually nothing - it isn't a good idea to
lock your back wheel so be relatively gentle with the back brake (some
people say don't use it at all).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; killing [afghan|iraqi] civilians is not 'justice'

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Uncle

Choppy (') said:

2) On the very first day I tried to commute on it someone pulled out
of a side street and nearly hit me. I slammed the brakes on to avoid
being hit and subsequently flew over the bars into the opposite
carriageway! (Bad braking technique I assume.)

OK, this one's important.

Obviously a bicycle has a high centre of gravity, but that's not the main
reason beginners go over the bars. You think 'oh, I braked too hard and a
bike has a high centre of gravity so I went over the bars - I must
remember not to brake so hard in future'. But that's the wrong conclusion
and doesn't explain the mechanics of what tends to happen.

A beginner grabs the brakes, typically without bracing the arms. The bike
slows rapidly. Because the arms aren't braced, the rider's body doesn't
slow, but continues forward under normal momentum until his or her thighs
hit the handlebars, at which point the bike flips.

Firstly, don't just grab the brakes. If you lock the front wheel you'll not
only lose control but you also won't stop so quickly. Modulate the brakes.
But also, and most importantly, brace your arms. Push yourself back on the
bike. For maximum braking in emergency, get your [censored] out of the saddle
and as far back out over the back wheel as you can. This has two effects:

you should also beable to feel the slip point, worth trying out some
emrgency stops to see how the bike stops.

Quoted message said:

1) because you've made yourself relatively rigid on the bike, the brakes
slow you as well as slowing the bike. This is the important one.

2) by moving your centre of gravity down and back, you're increasing the
amount of braking force you can achieve before the bike starts to flip.

Remember that in an emergency braking situation you will unweight the rear
wheel, so your back brake does virtually nothing - it isn't a good idea to
lock your back wheel so be relatively gentle with the back brake (some
people say don't use it at all).

and doing 2 will increase the amount you can use the rear before it
locks, and getting used to moving ones weight about on the bike, should
make riding more comftable as you learn to unweighten for lumps and
bumbs.

roger