Fissure in titanium frame

saintsfan342000 said:

Seriously though, we're talking about TITANIUM here. I'm sure we've all seen the video on YouTube where they drive a truck over a carbon, aluminum, and titanium tube, and the titanium is the only one that doesn't fail. There must have been some impurity in the material, or a void, or some irregularity from which this grew (like what we see in the Liberty Bell).

I backed my car over the garden broom and it was OK. Doesnt mean 1" wooden broom handles would build an indestructable bike frame.😄

Did this crack just appear overnight or did it grow over a period of time?

I dont understand where the Titanium myth comes from, its stronger than aluminium but not as strong as steel. It is subject to stresses and failure just like any other material.

Perhaps it was ridden by a big bloke, with a long seatpost with insufficient insertion.

I can understand non transferable warranties otherwise the manufacturer could (in theory) end up having to replace every frame they have ever made, free of charge.

Years ago a freind of mine baught a Russian Titanium MTB frame. It failed in a very similar manner to the pictures above.

When we looked at it closely it had an internally butted seat tube. The butting did not go down very far and ended with a square shoulder (not a gradual taper)

This meant that the weight of the rider was supported by the top 1.5 inches of the seat tube also the square shoulder formed a stress point which is where the crack started.

I am sure Seven would not be guilty of such bad design, but a flaw in the material or welding combined with a short seatpost insertion could have caused this crack.

I am sure you will get some expert opinions if you post your pictures on the frame builders forum frameforum.netindex.phpOpen ↗

Let us know if you find out more

Pie in the sky said:

...

I can understand non transferable warranties otherwise the manufacturer could (in theory) end up having to replace every frame they have ever made, free of charge.

That's true, but Leupold rifle scopes have a lifetime warranty regardless of ownership. I bought one used a pawn shop about 15 years ago. I was having trouble with it - sent it in and they completely refurbished it and fedex'd it back to me, all free of charge.

That said, I do not expect companies to honor lifetime warranties when ownership changes, but part of me asks, what's the difference who owns it?

Camilo said:

That's true, but Leupold rifle scopes have a lifetime warranty regardless of ownership. I bought one used a pawn shop about 15 years ago. I was having trouble with it - sent it in and they completely refurbished it and fedex'd it back to me, all free of charge.

That said, I do not expect companies to honor lifetime warranties when ownership changes, but part of me asks, what's the difference who owns it?

You make a point about a transferable warranty adding to the quality image of a brand. But, IMO, there is really no marketing advantage to offer a transferrable warranty on a piece of sports gear like a bicycle since they depreciate so quickly. I certainly wouldn't pay extra for a new bike to pick up a transferrable warranty just so the next owner (if I ever sold it) could get a new frame free.

Very few makers have a true lifetime warranty anyway. The major-brand warranties I've read cover only defects in materials and workmanship, and specifically exclude failures due to fatigue, normal usage or "wearout" of the frame. C'dale is very clear about their lack of fatigue coverage, which I appreciate. Some other maker's seem a bit vague to me when it comes to discussion of fatigue failures.

Seven may be an exception, since they sell expensive custom frames to a select clientiele. Obviously a warranty can cover anything, including crashes, if you add enough to the retail price of the frame to cover the risk.

[font=Verdana]To settle a few questions, I have been having a cracking sound that I assumed was in the pedals for the end of the season 2006 and realize it was from the seat post this year when it got louder and constant. While cleaning the bike, I saw the fissure. It was never crash in my ownership and this is a bike that was built in 2002 but finally received by the owner in 2003. It was never hit on a roof rack or anything like it. It has a proper seat post for a slope bike. Seven has made a new offer of $2445 for a new frame through their local dealer. In the meantime I have found a Ti welder in Montreal that thinks he can fix it. If not I bought a Cannondale Synapse frame and will ride that for a while. [/font][font=Verdana]Thank you for all the suggestions. [/font]

Interesting that they dropped their price by over $1000 to try to keep you as a Seven rider.

Hi

Are Aluminium Frames repairable too ? (for crack in the downtube) As far as i know the answer is no ??

Thanks

Fcodere said:

[font=Verdana]To settle a few questions, I have been having a cracking sound that I assumed was in the pedals for the end of the season 2006 and realize it was from the seat post this year when it got louder and constant. While cleaning the bike, I saw the fissure. It was never crash in my ownership and this is a bike that was built in 2002 but finally received by the owner in 2003. It was never hit on a roof rack or anything like it. It has a proper seat post for a slope bike. Seven has made a new offer of $2445 for a new frame through their local dealer. In the meantime I have found a Ti welder in Montreal that thinks he can fix it. If not I bought a Cannondale Synapse frame and will ride that for a while. [/font][font=Verdana]Thank you for all the suggestions. [/font]

Have to wonder if the crack was in the frame when you bought it. Suppose we could give credit to ti for still holding together despite this massive crack.....certainly wouldn't want to ride my 7005 frame with a crack like this.

I'd give the welder a shot at it, as long as the price isn't excessive. OTOH, after riding the Synapse, you may decide the patching up the Seven no longer interests you 🙂

Pity they offered you up a new frame. We would've been happy to help you out with a deal.

Fcodere said:

[font=Verdana]In the meantime I have found a Ti welder in Montreal that thinks he can fix it.[/font][font=Verdana] [/font]

It seems like you could just lay a bead on the crack on the outside of the frame. There is still probably a crack in internal to the seat tube, but maybe with the outside shored up it won't get any worse. I think I would try the repair and frequently examine the frame afterward. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, you are not out much.

How much stress is there on that part of the frame with a properly inserted seat post?

Well, sure you could repair it, but it wouldn't exactly be attractive and I doubt you'd get an longevity out of it. It's a pretty catastrophic crack.

It could cost quite a fair bit to fix, depending on how fastidiously it's done, so you could also argue that's a few of hundred bucks you could alternatively throw into a new one.

I must also add that's one of the weirder snaps I've seen. Something puzzling going on there no doubt.

Fcodere said:

[font=Verdana]To settle a few questions, I have been having a cracking sound that I assumed was in the pedals for the end of the season 2006 and realize it was from the seat post this year when it got louder and constant. While cleaning the bike, I saw the fissure. It was never crash in my ownership and this is a bike that was built in 2002 but finally received by the owner in 2003. It was never hit on a roof rack or anything like it. It has a proper seat post for a slope bike. Seven has made a new offer of $2445 for a new frame through their local dealer. In the meantime I have found a Ti welder in Montreal that thinks he can fix it. If not I bought a Cannondale Synapse frame and will ride that for a while. [/font][font=Verdana]Thank you for all the suggestions. [/font]

Did you have the frame looked at by a shop when you started to hear a cracking sound? It might not have been so bad had you caught the problem sooner.

John M said:

Interesting that they dropped their price by over $1000 to try to keep you as a Seven rider.

Interesting in a good way?

[quote="John M"]
Interesting that they dropped their price by over $1000 to try to keep you as a Seven rider.[/QUOTE]Actually, I thought it was curious rather than "interesting" ...

Most (?) reputable fabricators/manufacturers want to know why their product failed, and that is one reason (but, certainly NOT the only reason) that they want to retrieve the damaged item.

If SEVEN were a little more savvy, or reputable (and, I know they are highly regarded in the industry for their frames ... at least, in the past ... before this thread), I think they would have offered a REPLACEMENT frame for ~$1000US, or less ... with an adjustment allowance against the frame for depreciation ...

... BECAUSE, the good will & positive "press" would go a long way amongst potential, future Ti frame purchasers ... at least, IMO ... vs. what has transpired in the past weeks.

FWIW. I believe that some/most/all Ti tubing that is used in bike frames is seamed ... and, I would consequently BET that the seam on the particular top tube is where (or, adjacent to where) the failure occurred BECAUSE that appears to be an awfully STRAIGHT "fissure" to have occurred elsewhere.

In other words, it appears like a fabrication/design flaw that was possibly (but, not necessarily) aggravated by improper seatpost insertion (i.e., I can envision a shimmed seatpost with a smaller than spec'd diameter with too short a shim could possibly have the same effect as an abbreviated insertion & thereby result in unanticipated stress).

After all, the particular frame is a ROAD frame ... it ISN'T one of their MTBs which has been hucked off a 10' drop by some wild-eyed 16 year old ...

How do the SEVEN MTB frames survive the rigors of competition? Or, should we now presume that the rider requirement is a weight under 140 lbs with the proviso that s/he get a new frame every season/month/race?

I think that SEVEN's "customer service" has to rethink their replacement policy ...

Interesting thoughts on the possible failure mechanisms. If the cause was indeed improper seatpost installation, or other catastrophic damage (ie, bike crushed from the side) perhaps that is the reason Seven took no interest in having the frame returned to them for inspection. Even if it was obvious to them that the crack was due to abuse, they may have learned that it's not wise to point the finger and get into a technical arguement. But I don't see this as a failure of customer service since the OP isn't the original owner of the bike....really not even a Seven customer.

The problem is, is that you have to weigh up the possibility of good press vs the effort it would take to look like a white knight.

Plus you open up the precedent, so every 2nd hand Seven 'JRA' owner could be knocking on your door wanting a free or heavily discounted frame.

alfeng said:

If SEVEN were a little more savvy, or reputable (and, I know they are highly regarded in the industry for their frames ... at least, in the past ... before this thread), I think they would have offered a REPLACEMENT frame for ~$1000US, or less ... with an adjustment allowance against the frame for depreciation ...
...

I used to sell Seven frames in my retail store and the wholesale cost of the frame in question is around $2000. There is no way a 2nd owner without a warranty should get a frame for anything less than that. It's not a Fuji. I'm sorry to disagree but your deal is something you'd get from Specialized whose frames retail for around that. $2400 is a damn good deal. I just think it's crazy that folks believe they are entitled to something or some deal because they own a certain product from a company. Go by a used BMW from a non-authorized dealer or direct from a customer, wreck it or neglect having it checked right away when you here a wierd cracking noise, then call BMW and tell them you want a deal or you believe they should hook you up because you own one and your car is cracked. Or say just weld it up it'll be ok. No high end manufacturer would fix anything in such a cheap way. Come on folks. Just because it's a bike doesn't make it any different than any high end product. These are really expensive bikes made of very expensive material and that crack is huge.

goindowntheroad said:

.......I just think it's crazy that folks believe they are entitled to something or some deal because they own a certain product from a company. Go by a used BMW from a non-authorized dealer or direct from a customer, wreck it or neglect having it checked right away when you here a wierd cracking noise, then call BMW and tell them you want a deal or you believe they should hook you up because you own one and your car is cracked. Or say just weld it up it'll be ok. No high end manufacturer would fix anything in such a cheap way. Come on folks. Just because it's a bike doesn't make it any different than any high end product. These are really expensive bikes made of very expensive material and that crack is huge.

Just because you say it is so does not make it so.....

There are in fact remedies and times that what you say is not true or correct. In certain instances, a second hand owner may in fact have legal remedies against a manufacturer. Many people do not realize this and a bit of research might be in order.

One avenue to research might be;
The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

[indent]The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is a Federal Law that protects the buyer of any product which costs more than $25 and comes with an express written warranty. This law applies to any product that you buy that does not perform as it should.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, a warrantor should perform adequate repairs in at least two, and possibly three, attempts to correct a particular defect. Further, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act’s reasonableness requirement applies to your product as a whole rather than to each individual defect that arises.

One of the most important parts of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is its fee shifting provision. This provision provides that you may recover the attorney fees incurred in the prosecution of your case if you are successful – independent of how much you actually win. That rational behind this fee shifting provision is to twofold: (1) to ensure you will be able to vindicate your rights without having to expend large sums on attorney's fees and (2) because manufacturers are able to write off all expenses of defense as a legitimate business expense, whereas you, the average consumer, obviously does not have that kind of economic staying power.

[/indent]And, this is really important;

[font=Arial](3) The term "consumer" means a buyer (other than for purposes of resale) of any consumer product, any person to whom such product is transferred during the duration of an implied or written warranty (or service contract) applicable to the product, and any other person who is entitled by the terms of such warranty (or service contract) or under applicable State law to enforce against the warrantor (or service contractor) the obligations of the warranty (or service contract). [/font]

9202 said:

And, this is really important;

[font=Arial](3) The term "consumer" means a buyer (other than for purposes of resale) of any consumer product, any person to whom such product is transferred during the duration of an implied or written warranty (or service contract) applicable to the product, and any other person who is entitled by the terms of such warranty (or service contract) or under applicable State law to enforce against the warrantor (or service contractor) the obligations of the warranty (or service contract). [/font]

"Seven Cycles, Inc., hereafter, Seven, warrants the replacement or repair of a Seven frame due to defective workmanship and/or materials subject to the following conditions:

1. The frame is warranted only to the original retail purchaser and only for the time he or she owns the frame.
   
2. The warranty registration card must be completed and returned to Seven within thirty (30) days of purchase.
   
3. All warranty claims must be transacted through an authorized Seven retailer by the original purchaser with proof of purchase.
   
4. Seven retains sole option to repair or replace the frame as it sees fit.
   
5. In no event will Seven be responsible for consequential or special damages, including, but not limited to, pain and suffering."
   

No soup for you.

Bro Deal said:

"Seven Cycles, Inc., hereafter, Seven, warrants the replacement or repair of a Seven frame due to defective workmanship and/or materials subject to the following conditions:

1. The frame is warranted only to the original retail purchaser and only for the time he or she owns the frame.
   
2. The warranty registration card must be completed and returned to Seven within thirty (30) days of purchase.
   
3. All warranty claims must be transacted through an authorized Seven retailer by the original purchaser with proof of purchase.
   
4. Seven retains sole option to repair or replace the frame as it sees fit.
   
5. In no event will Seven be responsible for consequential or special damages, including, but not limited to, pain and suffering."
   

No soup for you.

No, it's not that simple.

The Federal Statute may in fact take precidence over the Seven warranty conditions. If you read the last sentence on the Seven warranty site you find that they clearly state "This warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state".

Just because a company writes something in their warranty, does not mean that it prempts the law. A manufacturer in the US can say whatever they like, State and Federal laws may modify and even render the manufacturers warranty invalid.

Of course, with anything that has legal implications, an attorney's advice is a must.

My point, don't just drop this because you are told by a manufacturer that you don't have any rights. I am not an attorney, but I have had reason tp persue alternatives on some very high end items that did not perform as advertised or expected. The law is on the side of the consumer, you are NOT a beta tester and you should expect merchantability from the products you buy.

Go for the jugular!