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What unicycle will win Ride the Lobster

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12 June 2007
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mscalisi
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  1. I'm interested in finding out what people think about what unicycles the
    winners of Ride the Lobster will be riding.

    I think it's nearly cinched that the fastest teams will be on geared
    wheels, and I'm curious if 29ers or 36ers are going to be faster.

    Of course 36ers are geared higher, but I'm finding that it takes a bit
    of energy to get the cranks spinning. I'm wondering spinning a higher
    cadence on a 29er might be faster than mashing it out on a 36er, not to
    mention the lighter weight. Still, I like the stability of the bigger
    wheel, and I'm finding it easy to accelerate to high speed on the
    slightest downhill.

    yeah yeah, its all about the rider, but lets assume all riders are
    equal and discuss what cycles are going to will this race.

    Of course the results off RTL will settle a lot of arguements.

    --
    mscalisi

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  2. I think it'll be won by short-cranked, non-geared 36ers, with maybe a
    longer crank or geared 29 for the hillier sections. Since teams are
    allowed to divide the race however they want, a team could set up their
    strongest climber and his/her choice of uni for the hilly sections, and
    allow the spin-meisters the flatter sections.

    --
    steveyo

    steveyo
    ...like having your own personal rollercoaster...

    - a few 'uni race write-ups'
    (http://home.nycap.rr.com/rduhan/uni_race_writeups/)
    - muni and kokopelli uni 't-shirts, mugs and stickers'
    (http://www.cafepress.com/steveyo)
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  3. mscalisi said:

    I'm interested in finding out what people think about what unicycles the
    winners of Ride the Lobster will be riding.

    I think it's nearly cinched that the fastest teams will be on geared
    wheels, and I'm curious if 29ers or 36ers are going to be faster.

    Of course 36ers are geared higher, but I'm finding that it takes a bit
    of energy to get the cranks spinning. I'm wondering spinning a higher
    cadence on a 29er might be faster than mashing it out on a 36er, not to
    mention the lighter weight. Still, I like the stability of the bigger
    wheel, and I'm finding it easy to accelerate to high speed on the
    slightest downhill.

    yeah yeah, its all about the rider, but lets assume all riders are
    equal and discuss what cycles are going to will this race.

    Of course the results off RTL will settle a lot of arguements.

    Sorry if this comes across as pedantic, but even if we assume all
    riders are equal it's going to depend somewhat on what they're all
    equal -to-, no? Which is to say, whether they prefer to trade off
    aerobic fitness and spin real fast in a lower gear vs whether they
    prefer to rely on their strength.

    Strength-oriented riders will presumably prefer the geared 36" solution
    since they can spin slower. Aerobic rides I guess might prefer a
    higher cadence (and potentially lower bottom gear for hills) on their
    geared 29ers...

    --
    mark williamson

    Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat? And no
    pedals!
    Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
    Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
    Mark: My wheel has a wheel!
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  4. mark williamson said:

    Sorry if this comes across as pedantic, but even if we assume all riders
    are equal it's going to depend somewhat on what they're all equal -to-,
    no? Which is to say, whether they prefer to trade off aerobic fitness
    and spin real fast in a lower gear vs whether they prefer to rely on
    their strength.

    Strength-oriented riders will presumably prefer the geared 36" solution
    since they can spin slower. Aerobic rides I guess might prefer a
    higher cadence (and potentially lower bottom gear for hills) on their
    geared 29ers...

    Have you ever ridden a geared unicycle? Please keep in mind that nearly
    all geared unicycles run a 1:1.5 gear ratio, which is as close to
    nothing in my opinion, strength matters very little, what matters
    mostly is how fast you can spin without falling off, even on geared
    unicycles. To actually have benefit of the gears it would have to be
    1:3 or something like that.

    --
    DustinSchaap

    FOUNDER OF EENWIEL.NL (\"HTTP://WWW.EENWIEL.NL\"😉
    *Sponsored by 'MUNICYCLE.COM' (http://www.municycle.com) , 'QU-AX'
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    'cool, my quick erection folder is full of pics of u'*-Amanda
    Gallacher*
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  5. Sure, that's a valid point. I guess I'm thinking more of what you'd call
    a "typical rider". Of course it's easy to point out that it won't be a
    typical team that wins. I don't know how far into masher territory 54
    gear inches is.

    I think non-geared unicycles don't stand a chance on the flats, but may
    be advantageous on the hills. Still, I'm assuming that people will
    change cycles based on the terrain of each particular segment. I think
    even someone who is a spinner will be faster on a geared wheel. 43.5
    gear inches would be seen as a fairly low gear on a bike.

    mark williamson said:

    Sorry if this comes across as pedantic, but even if we assume all riders
    are equal it's going to depend somewhat on what they're all equal -to-,
    no? Which is to say, whether they prefer to trade off aerobic fitness
    and spin real fast in a lower gear vs whether they prefer to rely on
    their strength.

    Strength-oriented riders will presumably prefer the geared 36" solution
    since they can spin slower. Aerobic rides I guess might prefer a
    higher cadence (and potentially lower bottom gear for hills) on their
    geared 29ers...

    --
    mscalisi

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  6. I disagree. On flat land, I cannot spin as fast on a geared 36er as I
    can on a standard 36er (using 150mm cranks). I'm not even sure its
    strength, I just feel like I can't get enough leverage to spin fast.
    ....this may change as I get more experience.

    I think a 36er geared to 108 gear inches would be very difficult to
    power on anything other than a slope.

    DustinSchaap said:

    Have you ever ridden a geared unicycle? Please keep in mind that nearly
    all geared unicycles run a 1:1.5 gear ratio, which is as close to
    nothing in my opinion, strength matters very little, what matters
    mostly is how fast you can spin without falling off, even on geared
    unicycles. To actually have benefit of the gears it would have to be
    1:3 or something like that.

    --
    mscalisi

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  7. mscalisi said:

    I think non-geared unicycles don't stand a chance on the flats, ...

    Haven't the faster times and speeds measured on a uni been on non-geared
    unis?

    But I agree, people may bring more than one uni each, for the different
    sections. Maybe bring several unis for the team to share and just
    different seat-posts for the different height riders.

    --
    steveyo

    steveyo
    ...like having your own personal rollercoaster...

    - a few 'uni race write-ups'
    (http://home.nycap.rr.com/rduhan/uni_race_writeups/)
    - muni and kokopelli uni 't-shirts, mugs and stickers'
    (http://www.cafepress.com/steveyo)
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  8. I am a bit tired of the yes / no discussions about high gear ratio's so
    let's not go there. I think that fixed wheels will be better than
    schlumpfs for most of the ride.

    --
    DustinSchaap

    FOUNDER OF EENWIEL.NL (\"HTTP://WWW.EENWIEL.NL\"😉
    *Sponsored by 'MUNICYCLE.COM' (http://www.municycle.com) , 'QU-AX'
    (http://www.qu-ax.com) and 'SEMCYCLE' (http://www.semcycle.com)*

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  9. I'm just interested in peoples experiences, regardless if they're
    different from mine or not.

    DustinSchaap said:

    I am a bit tired of the yes / no discussions about high gear ratio's so
    let's not go there. I think that fixed wheels will be better than
    schlumpfs for most of the ride.

    --
    mscalisi

    Quoted message said:

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  10. In general, a geared 29 will be faster for a given amount of energy
    output than a non-geared 36, and a geared 36 will be faster for a given
    amount of energy output than a geared 29, on anything except uphills;
    if there were easy access to all the different options, I'd expect
    geared 36 teams to perform noticeably better than geared 29 teams.

    However, I think there are more geared 29 than geared 36 unis out
    there, and since people need to train on their race setup to get
    maximum speed out of it, it may be a geared 29 that ends up fastest.

    --
    tholub
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  11. i have a lot of experience on a coker, and less on a schlumpf 29.

    on a road course hours long, there is absolutely NO chance that i could
    match my coker speed to my schlumpf speed

    geared unicycles would have the advantage in this race, no doubt about
    it.

    you have to picture the whole time you would ride 3+ hours, lets say,
    for someone on this course, on a given day.

    roads are incredibly paved these days, even in nova scotia, spinning
    your cranks fast is all well and good...briefly.

    A geared 29r who could pedal more COMFORTABLY than a Coker rider
    pedaling as fast on his short cranks will have the advantage. (let's
    picture, for this, the same rider, equally experienced on both
    machines)

    take into consideration all the hills, etc that one would encounter
    where one would downshift to tackle them, upshift at the top, then keep
    going.

    Providing the teams have equally skilled riders on their machines. the
    team with 2 gear combinations will win. noo doot aboot it

    --
    Brian MacKenzie

    'DVD: Inner Balance Now Available $28cdn. Shipped world-wide for $5'
    (http://www.balanceproductions.ca/dvds.htm)
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  12. First, I spoke to Darren at OUI and he said that Brian wouldn't be a
    good advocate for geared hubs at all, after several high-speed-gear
    changes led to huge accidents. I was going to train on a 29'er geared
    and then switch to the geared as a training lead-up to The Lobster, but
    he cautioned against it, as Schlumph's were unsafe in his estimation.

    SECOND. I have run 5 full marathons, 5 half marathons and several
    shorter races in my career. I think that way too much emphasis is being
    put on the equipment used in this race and not enough on training. THIS
    RACE IS 800kms. That's 500 miles in USA lingo. Each member of these
    teams will have to ride 100 miles. I will take 5 WELL TRAINED riders on
    non-geared 29's over any combination of geared 29's and 36's any day.

    If even one person on your team can not ride at least 30 miles a day at
    a reasonable pace, 5 people could beat you on 16's

    --
    Beener

    Unicycle for Pic-a-Pop!!
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  13. Beener said:

    First, I spoke to Darren at OUI and he said that Brian wouldn't be a
    good advocate for geared hubs at all, after several high-speed-gear
    changes led to huge accidents.

    Not true. I had ONE accident, it wasn't at high speed, and it was
    because the square taper crank came undone due to my poor care of it

    --
    Brian MacKenzie

    'DVD: Inner Balance Now Available $28cdn. Shipped world-wide for $5'
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  14. DustinSchaap said:

    Have you ever ridden a geared unicycle?

    No, can't afford one 😉 Probably don't need one but would love one
    anyhow.

    Quoted message said:

    Please keep in mind that nearly all geared unicycles run a 1:1.5 gear
    ratio, which is as close to nothing in my opinion, strength matters
    very little, what matters mostly is how fast you can spin without
    falling off, even on geared unicycles. To actually have benefit of the
    gears it would have to be 1:3 or something like that.

    True -but- it still comes off to the pushing slightly harder with a
    geared up vs spinning insanely fast on super short cranks. Maybe it'd
    be better categorised into "people who like spinning insanely fast"
    (the "aerobic" in my above comment) vs "people who like spinning a bit
    less insanely fast" - a 1.5x difference in maximum required cadence is
    quite significant but they'll both want to be pedalling as fast as they
    can go.

    Actually, I was really talking about the difference between people on
    geared 29ers or the ones on geared 36ers, rather than geared vs not.
    So how fast you want to spin is surely going to be one of the major
    differences? Thinking about it, that's only a 43" vs 54" virtual
    diameter, which is a rather smaller difference in cadence to the geared
    / non geared case. So it'd still be a case of more or less insanity in
    cadence rather than strength as such...

    I guess the thing that'll be interesting (and the reason this thread
    was created!) is whether the geared 36ers will work well. Folks have
    been mostly basing gunis around 29ers - presumably for the obvious
    reason that it's a more practical wheelsize in many ways. But I
    remember Harper once saying he thought the stability of the 36" wheel
    should be well suited to a guni - it seems like if you're cranking out
    a long distance then the 36" guni would be better than the 29" guni for
    the same reasons a coker is better in the non-geared case (smooth ride,
    stability, etc). But not having the experience of riding either uni in
    a geared configuration, this is just my educated guess 🙂

    --
    mark williamson

    Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat? And no
    pedals!
    Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
    Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
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  15. If short cranks and crazy-high cadence were more efficient for racing
    than long cranks, higher gearing and lower cadence, Tour de France
    riders would be running 110mm cranks, and lower gears, too. The fact
    that they don't, after 100+ years of equipment refinement, says
    something about human physiology.

    Now, the field in Ride the Lobster will be much more radically
    differentiated in terms of speed and strength than the Tour de France
    field is, so equipment will make less of a difference. Still, the top
    three or four teams should be fairly close, and I expect equipment to
    have an impact there.

    --
    tholub
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  16. Clearly, speed often comes at the expense of reduced safety. That being
    said, the current Schlumph hubs have been reliable.

    Training really should be done on the equipment you intend to use for
    the race. Only people with significant GUni experience should attempt
    to race on them.

    Of course training is paramount, my assumption is that all of the
    winning teams will be highly trained AND have GUnis. Training is a
    given and equipment plays a much larger role in unicycling than
    running.

    Beener said:

    I was going to train on a 29'er geared and then switch to the geared as
    a training lead-up to The Lobster, but he cautioned against it, as
    Schlumph's were unsafe in his estimation.

    SECOND. I have run 5 full marathons, 5 half marathons and several
    shorter races in my career. I think that way too much emphasis is being
    put on the equipment used in this race and not enough on training. THIS
    RACE IS 800kms. That's 500 miles in USA lingo. Each member of these
    teams will have to ride 100 miles. I will take 5 WELL TRAINED riders on
    non-geared 29's over any combination of geared 29's and 36's any day.

    If even one person on your team can not ride at least 30 miles a day at
    a reasonable pace, 5 people could beat you on 16's

    --
    mscalisi

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  17. I'll have to agree with Steveyo and Dustin that the winners will
    probably mostly be ungeared 36s. This prediction is based upon all the
    recent racing and records I"m hearing about, which are predominantly on
    ungeared 36s. As well as my Schlumpf 36" experience in the Unicon
    marathon, which says that the owner of this cycle chose *not* to use
    it, and I couldn't keep up with my starting group on it. Pedaling
    slower was great, but I felt way too unstable to risk going any faster
    than I did, and at that it was pretty stressful.

    I don't understand the people saying the gear ratios don't make much of
    a difference. Sure they do. On an ungeared unicycle, your basic
    limitation is how fast a cadence you can maintain for a long time. A
    higher gear enables you to slow this down, and presumably get some more
    speed. "Big" gear ratios would not be useful, as it would make the
    unicycle too hard to ride at all, let alone fast. I felt this on the
    Schlumpf 36", though my experience riding it was mostly limited to the
    one race, and less than an hour of practice riding.

    So if I may go so far as to predict something else, the winners of Ride
    The Lobster will win on their fitness and training, regardless of what
    they choose to ride. However it will also be a good venue to compare
    different unicycles for long distance speed.

    --
    johnfoss

    John Foss
    Email: "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com
    -----------------------------------------------

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    weekends is an XC trail." -- Kris Holm, on XC from a North Shore point
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  18. johnfoss said:

    . . . says that the owner of this cycle chose *not* to use it, and I
    couldn't keep up with my starting group on it. Pedaling slower was
    great, but I felt way too unstable to risk going any faster than I did,
    and at that it was pretty stressful.

    So, how do Schlumpf 36 owners/practitioners feel about this question?
    Presumably -most- of them will be on the starting line next year. Will
    they be leaving their treasures ($2000+!) at home??

    --
    genbirch
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  19. tholub said:

    If short cranks and crazy-high cadence were more efficient for racing
    than long cranks, higher gearing and lower cadence, Tour de France
    riders would be running 110mm cranks, and lower gears, too. The fact
    that they don't, after 100+ years of equipment refinement, says
    something about human physiology.

    I think the fact that crank lengths for bikes vary between 165mm to
    180mm stems more from the fact that bike manufacturers don't like
    having 10 different crank lengths to produce, rather than optimising
    efficiency for riders. There is less than 10% difference in crank
    lengths, yet I'm sure Tour de France riders vary in heights by much
    more than that. Think Pantani vs Ullrich or suchlike. There are many
    more gears to choose from and probably that makes up for some of it.
    I'm keen to shorten the cranks on my bike to 150mm because I think with
    my height and short legs, I'm better off spinner at high cadence. And
    long cranks are hard to spin even in a low gear.

    From my experience, I feel much less tired spinning a Coker with 110mm
    cranks for extended periods, than riding the longer 170mm cranks on my
    roadbike for the same amount of time, even though I always use a low
    gear on my roadbike. I'm sure the short cranks are much more efficient
    for my short legs.

    As far as RTL gearing goes, you really have to think of the geared 29"
    Schlumpfs as a 43.5" gear, not as a two geared unicycle. In 29" mode,
    it is practically useless for road racing unless you go with Japanese
    style 50mm cranks. It is likely faster than a fixed Coker only for
    steep inclines (say 15% or more). Of course you could try pushing a
    43.5" gear with 50mm cranks on- but it would work well only on a
    downhill, as there is not enough leverage to get good speed on it even
    on the flat. For most people though, I think if you stuck, say, 125mm
    cranks on a 29" Schlumpf, you're going to be stuck in the 43.5" gear
    the whole time. Even if the terrain changes constantly, you're going
    to lose a lot of time shifting- I estimate that you'd drop about 10
    secs on a group if you had to shift. The 43.5"/125mm gear is
    definitely faster than say a Coker with 110mm or even 100mm cranks on
    the flat, but if the incline goes up to say 5%, I reckon a Coker would
    be faster.

    So the choice would be between 36" fixed Coker, 29" Schlumpf in high
    gear (ie 43.5"😉, and the Coker Schlumpf (36" and 54"😉. I've not had
    enough experience on the Coker Schlumpf to say if it is faster in high
    gear mode on the flat. I think if you were to ride a 54" gear, you
    would really only be using it on the gentle downhills or on the flat.
    But you would need longish cranks which kind of cancels out a lot of
    the advantage you had with a short cranked Coker. The fact that there
    were riders favouring fixed Cokers over their Coker Schlumpfs at the
    Unicon marathon kind of gives me the impression that you would need to
    be very confident in the 54" mode to make it go faster than a fixed 36"
    Coker/short cranks on the flat.

    If I was in a team, I would use a fixed Coker 110mm for general
    terrain, fixed Coker 125mm for very hilly terrain, and a Schlumpf
    29"/125mm cranks in high gear for completely flat terrain.

    My 2c worth.

    Ken

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    GizmoDuck

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    Email me for details.
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  20. GizmoDuck said:

    I think the fact that crank lengths for bikes vary between 165mm to
    180mm stems more from the fact that bike manufacturers don't like
    having 10 different crank lengths to produce, rather than optimising
    efficiency for riders.

    Lance Armstrong and Greg Lemond both put huge amounts of effort into
    optimizing their riding position, gearing and cadence. If it was
    plausible that 125mm cranks (or whatever) were optimal for them, I'm
    sure they could have managed to get their multi-million dollar teams to
    make them up a set.

    Quoted message said:


    For most people though, I think if you stuck, say, 125mm cranks on a
    29" Schlumpf, you're going to be stuck in the 43.5" gear the whole
    time. Even if the terrain changes constantly, you're going to lose a
    lot of time shifting- I estimate that you'd drop about 10 secs on a
    group if you had to shift. The 43.5"/125mm gear is definitely faster
    than say a Coker with 110mm or even 100mm cranks on the flat, but if
    the incline goes up to say 5%, I reckon a Coker with short cranks would
    be faster.

    I don't think shifting is the interesting part; I think riding a higher
    gear is the interesting part. A 43" equivalent gear will be less
    energy to push than a 36" equivalent gear, all else being equal.
    (Especially because a Schlumpf 29er is probably lighter than a Coker).

    Quoted message said:


    I think if you were to ride a 54" gear, you would really only be using
    it on the gentle downhills or on the flat. But you would need longish
    cranks which kind of cancels out a lot of the advantage you had with a
    short cranked Coker.

    No, it means that for a given speed you have to use less energy. In a
    long race, that's huge.

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