Racing Etiquette

tonyzackery said:

Sounds all nice and warm and fuzzy...but it ain't racin'...When in a "race", the goal is to win...period. End of story...

===========================================================
You've missed something vital with my last post...humour...."period. End of story..."

Bigbananabike said:

============================================================
We're a caring and sharing club.

Everybody aims(including officials) for everybody to cross the line at the same time(sometimes its a little difficult to manage - we have to use both sides of the road), and we're all given the same finishing time - from 17 year old speed punks to 90 year old grandmothers who sometimes have to do the course in their wheelchairs.

After the finish and between cups of tea and scones we have a big group hug.
I may not make the Giro de Italia team but I drive home from my "race" on Saturday afternoons with a smile on my dial that just won't quit🙂

Now that's what its really all about isn't it guys?

Do you get gold star stickers or certificates of achievement? Or maybe both? Sounds very positive and self-affirming.

But for realz, the whole attraction of racing to me is that there are winners and losers, and any racing tactic is fair game. If you felt your victory was sniped by a sprinter who sat in, you should complain to yourself for crappy tactics, not the officials.

peterlip said:

Unfortunately with 2km to go, we were caught by a collection of A and B graders who were overtaking each other, and then us. These guys still had another lap to go, so while faster as they passed us, we soon started to come back as our final stages heated up. Some of us started to tail the other grades. Too many bikes, a bit messy, especially given we were on public roads.

Which vets club you race with? I just signed up for Southern - doing D grade at the moment.

We arent allowed to draft bunches from other grades.

That screwed me this week when A grade went by and we were doing only 2-3kph slower at that stage. Had to back it off and give them 10 metres clearance.

Anyway based on my limited experience it seems in lower grades no-one wants to roll turns and put the hurt on the field. It comes down to individuals. If 3-4 guys got organised it would totally change the dynamic of the race - and find out a lot of the field. From what I can see they just want someone to tow them along but will chase if you go off the front.

The other issue with most of the vets courses are they are dead flat - which makes it very tough to get away without people co-operating. So standard tactics for most seem to be to sit on the bunch for 60kms and then fight out a mass sprint.

Last week we had a good sized hill - so I stayed on the front on the way up and when we got to the crest put the hammer down and went for it - that worked as they were expecting to cruise down the hill and get their HR back down. Net result was 800m break with 5 following. Dropped 3 of them in the next set of rolling hills 🙂 But then the last two just sucked wheel to the finish and rounded me up.

The lesson was if you are going to make a break you must commit 100% to it and be prepared to smoke yourself if it fails. No good giving it 80% - you end up having worked hard for nothing.

I also noticed that most people resolutely refuse a turn on the front - this week one guy refused three times but wanted to suck 2/3rd wheel all day. So with these guys you have to hold your real estate and force them out into the breeze. Elbow here or there.

Often with everyone being scared of the front the pace can get positively pedestrian. On the bell lap I reckon it would almost end up with the field track standing waiting for someone to break. :p

This week I got bored and lead the front for the last couple of laps and got the pace up to 38-40kph from 32-34kph. As a result we caught C grade on the last one which proves the point on the mentality at work here I think.

Quote below from bigbannanabike:

Quoted post said:

Another option - Put in a protest against the winner if they're someone who has just sat in and not worked. Our club takes this very seriously and the protest is likely to be upheld - so the sprinters have to work too.

I used to fall for this in my early 20s. I'd be one of the ones working my butt off and some scumbag(I can still remember them) would burgle a place in the finish sprint😠 . I was too green to protest. Some times I or someone else would give them a word in the bunch while we were riding - that helped.
If you do it and it succeeds then others will hopefully get the idea that they can't just sit in and need to be seen to be doing work and also that you're someone who's not to be messed with.

To the OP, this would be a good example of poor, sad, pathetic bike racing etiquette. Please dear Lord, ride your bike more and train smarter to win.

gil99 said:

Quote below from bigbannanabike:

To the OP, this would be a good example of poor, sad, pathetic bike racing etiquette. Please dear Lord, ride your bike more and train smarter to win.

Yup - its up there with some guys who came up out of the pack and asked me to slow it down a bit 😄

Bigbananabike said:

===========================================================
You've missed something vital with my last post...humour...."period. End of story..."

Uh, ok. But from your previous posts, the group hug thing your club does after races sounds pretty genuine to me😄

peterlip said:

Thanks everyone for your tips and ideas.

Back together, I moved back to 6 or 7th again and waited for the final sprint. Unfortunately with 2km to go, we were caught by a collection of A and B graders who were overtaking each other, and then us. These guys still had another lap to go, so while faster as they passed us, we soon started to come back as our final stages heated up. Some of us started to tail the other grades. Too many bikes, a bit messy, especially given we were on public roads. A few of our grade, pulled back. I decided to do the same, and finished somewhere around 8th.

Aside from the disappointing finish, I really enjoyed a race which was a little different from the norm. Talking to one of the work horses after the race, he was one of two responsible for bringing the pack back to our breakaway. He's a strong rider for our grade, and I think if it wasn't for him, we may have escaped. Without spelling anything out, the seed has been planted for the following weeks. I suspect that the 6 week spell of no breakaways has been broken, and will continue to be broken. I look forward to next week, although rumour has it that this course has a hill or two. At 83kg on a bike that has minimal carbon, hills are not what I call fun.

Hi Peter,

Just caught up with your posts as a result of following some links and some interesting posts on bike vics forums re some opinionated posts from some new guys riding s vets in e then d (fast reverse to Cora Lyn). Anyway I think we are both destined to D grade in the short term and would do well to have a little chat away from the bunch prior to the next race (hope no one is listening 🙂 but if they are too bad). Just got pipped by another sandbagging newbie in the wrong grade at Crib Point yesterday (thighs bigger than my chest) - but thats racing.

Anyway good luck with your op and look forward to catching up in a few weeks (when all will be clear !!!) .

BTW don't forget to give VICROADS a serve re Wellington Road roadworks.

Regards Frank (black Bianchi - mostly in a Mascot/hcc jersey)

Nice read here. (I'm a Pete too so nananinana).
I'm also in D grade here in Japan and have a good chance July 1st to go up to C.
I'm enrolled in another D class race for November too...
I went from F, & E grades and I earnt my way into D. I'm no good on hills and no good on tight small criteriums. In those races I'm racing above my level. However in a flat sprint under the 'right conditions' I think I'm pretty much unbeatable. Like this 5km X 6 laps 30km race (July 1st).

[IMG]nikkansports.comcourse hitachinaka.jpgOpen ↗[/IMG]

100 riders per race limit....

What I've found to be bad ettiquette in Japan and this could be a communication problem coupled with my mild manners is that if you do find yourself pulling at the front I've been shuffled right back down to the back of the peleton a few times for not being aggressive enough and demanding I be let back in near the front....

Stay tuned for my excuses for still being in D grade in a few weeks...

:o

fmc555 said:

Hi Peter,

Just caught up with your posts as a result of following some links and some interesting posts on bike vics forums re some opinionated posts from some new guys riding s vets in e then d (fast reverse to Cora Lyn). Anyway I think we are both destined to D grade in the short term and would do well to have a little chat away from the bunch prior to the next race (hope no one is listening 🙂 but if they are too bad). Just got pipped by another sandbagging newbie in the wrong grade at Crib Point yesterday (thighs bigger than my chest) - but thats racing.

Anyway good luck with your op and look forward to catching up in a few weeks (when all will be clear !!!) .

BTW don't forget to give VICROADS a serve re Wellington Road roadworks.

Regards Frank (black Bianchi - mostly in a Mascot/hcc jersey)

Yep - listening 😉 - was at Crib Point yesterday - D grade - Black/Pink Telecom with Silver/Carbon Six13. Red and white top the week before at Cora Lynn - off the front at the halfway mark in E grade. 😄

Due to lack of tactical skill I dont think we are quiet sandbagging yet - but we're keen so give us a few months to get it figured out and start winning.

brycer said:

Yep - listening 😉 - was at Crib Point yesterday - D grade - Black/Pink Telecom with Silver/Carbon Six13. Red and white top the week before at Cora Lynn - off the front at the halfway mark in E grade. 😄

figured you would be listening
yes - we did notice you

Have to say hi next time 🙂 - not racing this week as on holidays - but will be there week following and hopefully for the handicap. That should be interesting compared to a grade race.

As you would have gathered from the BV forum we have just taken up this racing thing and are enjoying it very much.

There were three of us in D yesterday (me plus Bodie Blue/Black on the Roubaix and Eliot White/Black on the Tarmac) and one in E (Mr D Yellow/Black on the Cannondale) - all regulars on the NRR 😄

thekiwi said:

Do you hold the same rationale when there are hill races? That the non climbers should squeal "not fair" when the whippets attack the hill after sitting in for the flat periods prior?

Im not a sprinter by any stretch of the imagination, but I dont consider it a "right" that having lead most of the bunch Im in some way entitled to take the win. Cyclist are made up of many strengths: Hill Climbers, Sprinters, Time Trialists etc. Each class of rider is as equally valid/skilled as the other.

As a climber my focus must be to nullify the strengths of those around me. That means attacking the hills and making it hurt real bad. If it means surging for 2 mins in a near all out sprint at halfway, then thats what it takes. Sometimes it repeated surges for 20secs every min to destroy their legs and hope I recover quicker, otherwise I will always get swamped at the finish.

The notion that you could use a legal approach to favour a certain rider I find just ludicrous. Maybe it is something about the Downunder approach, but seriously whilst we hate with a passion any rider who sits in, or who bridges across and brings this bunch with them, they are all valid tactics and ones which you have to try and counter.

Since shifting from running to cycling Ive been amazed at how tactical cycling is. If you dont like it, suggest you take up running. 🙂

Agreed. But Tony enjoyed more contact.

So play in a steroid-based NFL or Division 1a college football freak show.

casewatch.orgindictment.shtmlOpen ↗

Were the James Shortt. MD doped 2003 Carolina Pathers 'legal' too? Whatever that means.

Or the Balco-based Oakland Raiders? sfgate.combalcoOpen ↗

Yes we were there. I was certainly not trying to be opinionated in my account of the race. Just factual as I remember it. 🙂

Ditto to what Brycer said Frank; 'Be sure to say hi next time' both you and Peter. We will continue to post ride reports after the race and certainly don't intend on being over opinionated or antagonistic in any way. No matter the result. We are all pretty casual over at BV and like to share in each others riding experience. Come on over and join up. Friendly bunch. 😄

As for sandbagging... I started in E first race, then bumped myself up to D for my second race. If I was sandbagging I would have stayed in E. 😉 That's all the racing I've done. I believe if you place three times or similar you get bumped anyway. Is that the case?

see you next time, bodie. 😄 😄

bodie said:

Yes we were there. I was certainly not trying to be opinionated in my account of the race. Just factual as I remember it. 🙂

Ditto to what Brycer said Frank; 'Be sure to say hi next time' both you and Peter. We will continue to post ride reports after the race and certainly don't intend on being over opinionated or antagonistic in any way. No matter the result. We are all pretty casual over at BV and like to share in each others riding experience. Come on over and join up. Friendly bunch. 😄

As for sandbagging... I started in E first race, then bumped myself up to D for my second race. If I was sandbagging I would have stayed in E. 😉 That's all the racing I've done. I believe if you place three times or similar you get bumped anyway. Is that the case?

see you next time, bodie. 😄 😄

sorry i wasn't referring to your goodself as the sandbagger (somewhat tongue in cheek i might add) on this occasion, however you can wear that cap the week before at Cora Lynn where some b'tard stuck a dirty big hill in the middle of the course).

The guy I referred to in e grade at crib point was talking to a mate of his in a grade during warmup and i commented that he would be tuff to beat however his mate reckoned that although he was strong as an ox he wasn't very fit at the mo. Anyhow it was a pretty slow ride that day so he hung in their and edged away in the sprint.

I had a bit of a rant over on bv (where I have been lurking for a few years and rarely posting) just regarding how the handicapper handles new folk.

look forward to seeing you guys sunday week (75th birthday at our house - not mine btw - this sunday) at Casey I think.

fmc5 said:

sorry i wasn't referring to your goodself as the sandbagger (somewhat tongue in cheek i might add) on this occasion, however you can wear that cap the week before at Cora Lynn where some b'tard stuck a dirty big hill in the middle of the course).

The guy I referred to in e grade at crib point was talking to a mate of his in a grade during warmup and i commented that he would be tuff to beat however his mate reckoned that although he was strong as an ox he wasn't very fit at the mo. Anyhow it was a pretty slow ride that day so he hung in their and edged away in the sprint.

I had a bit of a rant over on bv (where I have been lurking for a few years and rarely posting) just regarding how the handicapper handles new folk.

look forward to seeing you guys sunday week (75th birthday at our house - not mine btw - this sunday) at Casey I think.

No worries I'll be there in D grade again. Unless it looks like raining. Then I'll go for an MTB at Lysty. Not much rain/mud around these days so you've gotta enjoy it when it's about.

See you soon. 😄

bodie said:

No worries I'll be there in D grade again. Unless it looks like raining. Then I'll go for an MTB at Lysty. Not much rain/mud around these days so you've gotta enjoy it when it's about.

See you soon. 😄

Frank, FWIW also. I didn't race at Cora Lynn. Only raced at Dromana and Crib Point. So you missed your mark on that one as well. 😉 🙂

See you tomorrow. At least 'one good hill' on the course apparently. 😄

Forum Etiquette

bodie said:

Frank, FWIW also. I didn't race at Cora Lynn. Only raced at Dromana and Crib Point. So you missed your mark on that one as well. 😉 🙂

See you tomorrow. At least 'one good hill' on the course apparently. 😄

Apologies - that was the other bver - Brycer, a very strong looking young fellow - a serious C grade contender I think

Won't see you tomorrow but will look out for you guys at Casey the following week.

I must be careful in my use of the s'bagger word - seems to offend.
Personally I would love to be accused of it.
People just tell me "you deserved to win that - you did so much work" as I stupidly get swamped at the end (usually because I did so much work).

There are 100 ways to lose a bike race - I think i am up to 99 !!!!!

fmc5 said:

Apologies - that was the other bver - Brycer, a very strong looking young fellow - a serious C grade contender I think

Won't see you tomorrow but will look out for you guys at Casey the following week.

I must be careful in my use of the s'bagger word - seems to offend.
Personally I would love to be accused of it.
People just tell me "you deserved to win that - you did so much work" as I stupidly get swamped at the end (usually because I did so much work).

There are 100 ways to lose a bike race - I think i am up to 99 !!!!!

LOL. Naah, not offended at all. It just wasn't me. 😉

see you at Casey.

No racing this weekend - on holiday with SWMBO - back for next week though. Hope the weather is kind during the week so we can get some kms in. Have an aversion to the trainer.

Like to do some more racing in D to get some vague clue on tactics plus a few places before getting shoved into C. Bodie will get there before me with a 2nd last week and me lagging around 7-8th place. 😉
Hope to say hi in person at Casey next week. And lastly thanks for calling me young 😄

Oh and Bodie just noticed that the guy who beat him for first in D collected 1st place in C grade this week.

Time SV got a new handicapper? - not that I have actually spoken to them yet :p