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Why is the tdf getting shorter?

Started by Callistus Valerius · · Last activity · 86 posts · 1,278 views

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Road Cycling
Published
6 July 2007
Last activity
11 July 2007
Original author
Callistus Valerius
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  1. Quoted message said:

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    Kind of an inside-out way of looking at it. The reality (from my perspective
    as an insider of sorts at Trek) is that the team pushes the bike company
    very, very hard. The back story to the new Madone is amazing, but can't
    probably be told for a little while yet (as it involves politics and
    resources between the team and Trek).

    The days of the racer who's happy to ride on whatever he's given are, for
    the most part, gone. Back in the day it was just the top couple of guys
    (sometimes only one) on a team that got the cool stuff. There are still some
    riders who just don't care... "Put me on a bike, point me in the right
    direction and I'll do my job." But competition among the riders themselves,
    competition for a decent contract for the next year... that, too, is a force
    pushing the individual rider's desire to have the best-possible equipment.

    I don't think Trek really cares that much about making TT bikes from a
    business standpoint (there's very little money in them, and way too much
    effort). Trek cares about having their name shown on TV, in newspapers, and
    magazine covers. It doesn't matter what type of bike it is. They're going to
    make lots more money selling standard road bikes to a whole lot of people
    than they will anything else. And the average person, seeing a photo of a TT
    bike, doesn't have any better feeling about buying a Trek than he or she
    would seeing a photo of that same athlete on a standard road bike. Could
    even be the opposite.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dan Connelly said:
    Quoted message said:

    > No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance
    > tests, often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage
    > alone, or in small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that
    > there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    > amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    > make their own field repairs, including changing flats.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Does that include setting bones and carbon fiber repairs?

    Quoted message said:

    It would be good seeing the riders use equipment that was actually
    designed to last. It would obsolete the silly weight rule.

    Quoted message said:

    At the least, require the riders to use the same equipment in every
    stage, time trials included. The bike-du-jour syndrome is a bit
    like Adventure Racing: maximize the number of toys.

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    The length of the race is probably also a result of multi-media
    attention span. I'm sure this has been commercially researched.

    Jobst Brandt

  2. Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K
    . . . and then there were men
    1931 Antonin Magne 177h 10m 3s 5095
    1930 Andre Leducq 172h 12m 10s 4818
    1929 Maurice De Waele 186h 39m 16s 5286
    1928 Nicolas Frantz 192h 48m 58s 5377
    1927 Nicolas Frantz 198h 16m 42s 5348
    1926 Lucien Buysse Belgium 238h 44m 25s 5475
    1925 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 219h 10m 13s 5430
    1924 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 226h 18m 21s 5427
    1923 Henri Pelissier France 222h 15m 30s 5386
    1922 Firmin Lambot Belgium 222h 8m 6s 5378
    1921 Leon Scieur Belgium 221h 50m 0s 5484
    1920 Philippe Thys Belgium 228h 36m 0s 5503
    1919 Firmin Lambot Belgium 231h 7m 15s 5560
    * * * No Tour de France - World War I * * *
    1914 Philippe Thys Belgium 200h 28m 49s 5414
    1913 Philippe Thys Belgium 197h 54m 0s 5387
    1912 Odile Defraye Belgium 184h 50m 0s 5229
    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    ---------
    1911-1931 over 5000 K, around 200 hours
    After that it dropped to 4200 K around 120 hours.
    Now the modern era it's around 3300 K around 85 hours

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider. The iron-men
    of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    Because watching ultra-distance sports is BORING AS HELL.

    Greg
    --
    http://ticketmastersucks.org

    Le Petite Dejeuner au Tour de Farce:
    http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

  3. Roger Zoul said:

    David L. Johnson wrote:
    :: there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    :: amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    :: make their own field repairs, including changing flats.

    Amusing? Why? You like seeing people suffer needlessly?

    Suffer needlessly by changing a flat? Oh my goodness. I hope you said
    that in jest.

    Greg

    --
    http://ticketmastersucks.org

    Le Petite Dejeuner au Tour de Farce:
    http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

  4. Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
    [email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
    réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:
    Dan Connelly said:
    Quoted message said:

    > No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance
    > tests, often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage
    > alone, or in small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that
    > there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    > amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    > make their own field repairs, including changing flats.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Does that include setting bones and carbon fiber repairs?

    Quoted message said:

    It would be good seeing the riders use equipment that was actually
    designed to last. It would obsolete the silly weight rule.

    Quoted message said:

    At the least, require the riders to use the same equipment in every
    stage, time trials included. The bike-du-jour syndrome is a bit
    like Adventure Racing: maximize the number of toys.

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    The length of the race is probably also a result of multi-media
    attention span. I'm sure this has been commercially researched.

    Jobst Brandt

    You're a total jerk. Go back home. God loves you, anyway. Maybe only.

  5. Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K
    . . . and then there were men
    1931 Antonin Magne 177h 10m 3s 5095
    1930 Andre Leducq 172h 12m 10s 4818
    1929 Maurice De Waele 186h 39m 16s 5286
    1928 Nicolas Frantz 192h 48m 58s 5377
    1927 Nicolas Frantz 198h 16m 42s 5348
    1926 Lucien Buysse Belgium 238h 44m 25s 5475
    1925 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 219h 10m 13s 5430
    1924 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 226h 18m 21s 5427
    1923 Henri Pelissier France 222h 15m 30s 5386
    1922 Firmin Lambot Belgium 222h 8m 6s 5378
    1921 Leon Scieur Belgium 221h 50m 0s 5484
    1920 Philippe Thys Belgium 228h 36m 0s 5503
    1919 Firmin Lambot Belgium 231h 7m 15s 5560
    * * * No Tour de France - World War I * * *
    1914 Philippe Thys Belgium 200h 28m 49s 5414
    1913 Philippe Thys Belgium 197h 54m 0s 5387
    1912 Odile Defraye Belgium 184h 50m 0s 5229
    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    ---------
    1911-1931 over 5000 K, around 200 hours
    After that it dropped to 4200 K around 120 hours.
    Now the modern era it's around 3300 K around 85 hours

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider. The iron-men
    of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    Mostly. But some are still around:
    http://www.yellowjersey.org/harvey.html

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  6. "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
    news:468E7559.9050506@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m...

    Quoted message said:
    benjo maso said:

    "William R. Mattil" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Callistus Valerius wrote:

    > 2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    [snip]
    > 1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    Pretty weak troll if you ask me.

    in 1911 the average speed was ~28.4km/h and in 2006 it was ~41km/h
    Anyone that rides a bike must know the difference between these two
    speeds. Any Fred can do 28km/h

    Even the RAAMers can do that <g>

    300 to 400 km a day on unasphalted roads and dirt roads in the mountains,
    on 40 pound bicycles with no gear, making your own repairs and with
    nobody to hand you food or drinks? Any Fred can do that at 28km/h? I'm
    not so sure...

    If Pantani had been on a 40lb bike instead of a 16 lb bike up L'Alpe, and
    he weighed 126 lb, and his equipment was 3 lb, then his 36-min L'Alpe
    would have been a 42-min L'Alpe.

    He still would have beaten me by 6 minutes, and that if I was totally
    fresh, I crudely estimate.

    That said, I don't think Tour bikes in the climbing era were ever 40 lb.
    Maybe 30lb.

    They were about 15 kg, plus a pump, tools, three spare tyres, etc.- which
    means about 2 to 3 kg extra.

    Benjo

  7. G.T. said:
    Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    Quoted message said:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K
    . . . and then there were men
    1931 Antonin Magne 177h 10m 3s 5095
    1930 Andre Leducq 172h 12m 10s 4818
    1929 Maurice De Waele 186h 39m 16s 5286
    1928 Nicolas Frantz 192h 48m 58s 5377
    1927 Nicolas Frantz 198h 16m 42s 5348
    1926 Lucien Buysse Belgium 238h 44m 25s 5475
    1925 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 219h 10m 13s 5430
    1924 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 226h 18m 21s 5427
    1923 Henri Pelissier France 222h 15m 30s 5386
    1922 Firmin Lambot Belgium 222h 8m 6s 5378
    1921 Leon Scieur Belgium 221h 50m 0s 5484
    1920 Philippe Thys Belgium 228h 36m 0s 5503
    1919 Firmin Lambot Belgium 231h 7m 15s 5560
    * * * No Tour de France - World War I * * *
    1914 Philippe Thys Belgium 200h 28m 49s 5414
    1913 Philippe Thys Belgium 197h 54m 0s 5387
    1912 Odile Defraye Belgium 184h 50m 0s 5229
    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    ---------
    1911-1931 over 5000 K, around 200 hours
    After that it dropped to 4200 K around 120 hours.
    Now the modern era it's around 3300 K around 85 hours

    Quoted message said:

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider. The iron-men
    of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    Because watching ultra-distance sports is BORING AS HELL.

    Greg
    --http://ticketmastersucks.org

    Le Petite Dejeuner au Tour de Farce:http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    They could go a long way on Absinthe in those days.

  8. Sandy said:

    Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
    [email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
    réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:

    Dan Connelly writes:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    The length of the race is probably also a result of multi-media
    attention span. I'm sure this has been commercially researched.

    Jobst Brandt

    You're a total jerk.

    That was nice and constructive. Since you didn't dispute any of our points, it might be assumed you generally agree.

  9. On Jul 6, 8:08 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    Dans le message denews:[email hidden],
    [email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
    réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:

    Dan Connelly writes:
    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The length of the race is probably also a result of multi-media
    attention span. I'm sure this has been commercially researched.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Jobst Brandt

    Quoted message said:

    You're a total jerk.

    That was nice and constructive. Since you didn't dispute any of our points, it might be assumed you generally agree.

    Not constructive, but remarkably insightful, assuming he hasn't read
    too much of his posts.

    -ilan

  10. Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K
    . . . and then there were men
    1931 Antonin Magne 177h 10m 3s 5095
    1930 Andre Leducq 172h 12m 10s 4818
    1929 Maurice De Waele 186h 39m 16s 5286
    1928 Nicolas Frantz 192h 48m 58s 5377
    1927 Nicolas Frantz 198h 16m 42s 5348
    1926 Lucien Buysse Belgium 238h 44m 25s 5475
    1925 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 219h 10m 13s 5430
    1924 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 226h 18m 21s 5427
    1923 Henri Pelissier France 222h 15m 30s 5386
    1922 Firmin Lambot Belgium 222h 8m 6s 5378
    1921 Leon Scieur Belgium 221h 50m 0s 5484
    1920 Philippe Thys Belgium 228h 36m 0s 5503
    1919 Firmin Lambot Belgium 231h 7m 15s 5560
    * * * No Tour de France - World War I * * *
    1914 Philippe Thys Belgium 200h 28m 49s 5414
    1913 Philippe Thys Belgium 197h 54m 0s 5387
    1912 Odile Defraye Belgium 184h 50m 0s 5229
    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    ---------
    1911-1931 over 5000 K, around 200 hours
    After that it dropped to 4200 K around 120 hours.
    Now the modern era it's around 3300 K around 85 hours

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider. The iron-men
    of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    Another factor is that until 20 years ago, many stages were done at a
    slow pace except for the last two hours. Now that there is more
    intense racing for more of the race, it is a good idea to decrease the
    distance.

    You also have to take into account the two rest days, which reduce the
    distance by 300km.

    -ilan

  11. benjo maso said:

    Of course. But it happened one time that a bunch of kids swore to have seen
    how Bartali was pushed by two angels. The cheater!

    Presumably WADA will start doing research into an angel detection test
    after they finish research on placebo detection.

  12. The weight rule has been ridiculous from it's inception. The UCI
    should have implemented a set of uniform safety standards and testing
    if this were the case. The consumer product safety commission has it's
    own test machine and standards. Now some of these rules are
    problematic, but at least it gives people a place to start.

    Quoted message said:
    Dan Connelly said:
    Quoted message said:

    > No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance
    > tests, often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage
    > alone, or in small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that
    > there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    > amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    > make their own field repairs, including changing flats.
    Does that include setting bones and carbon fiber repairs?


    It would be good seeing the riders use equipment that was actually
    designed to last. It would obsolete the silly weight rule.
    At the least, require the riders to use the same equipment in every
    stage, time trials included. The bike-du-jour syndrome is a bit
    like Adventure Racing: maximize the number of toys.

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    The length of the race is probably also a result of multi-media
    attention span. I'm sure this has been commercially researched.

    Jobst Brandt

  13. Jobst Brandt said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events

    Sandy said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're a total jerk.

    Dan Connelly said:

    That was nice and constructive. Since you didn't dispute any of our points, it might be assumed you generally agree.

    Total is a French oil company.

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    William R. Mattil said:
    Quoted message said:

    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544

    Quoted message said:

    in 1911 the average speed was ~28.4km/h and in 2006 it was ~41km/h
    Anyone that rides a bike must know the difference between these two
    speeds. Any Fred can do 28km/h

    sir, *I* am a fred, and while i may be able to attain 28km/h, i doubt
    i could sustain it for 5500km (what is that in pints, anyway?).

    i would ask that you you consult with freds before making sweeping
    generalizations about us.

    cheers...goddammit!

  15. The TDF length changes from year to year and shorter year is not
    necessarily bad. The 1988 TDF was exceptionally hard year and the
    riders pushed even harder that year when Pedro Delgado won. When
    Indurain was winning the organizers decided to toughen up the race to
    give other riders a chance. Miguel simply used this as a opportunity
    to make the race even harder on his rivals.

    But the races like Bordeaux-Paris other long races have faded because
    they simply don't generate the excitement.

    Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    Quoted message said:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K

    Actually, that's getting longer not shorter.

    Quoted message said:

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the
    race organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the
    race shorter and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern
    rider. The iron-men of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    The race has to fit into TV schedules. That would be the biggest
    driver, because that's what allows cycling to make billions of Euros a
    year.

  16. Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:

    (snippage 'til you want to scream.)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Jobst Brandt

    You're a total jerk.

    That was nice and constructive. Since you didn't dispute any of our points,
    it might be assumed you generally agree.

    one can't help but notice that jobst is frequently right.

    one also can't help but notice that, should he ever err, an admission
    of same will not be forthcoming. at best, one can hope for infuriating
    silence.

    one therefore concludes that he is a jerk. and the (120mm) (iron)
    horse he rode in on.

  17. RicodJour said:

    Entropy?

    POTM
    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  18. in message <[email hidden]>, William R.

    Mattil (') said:
    Callistus Valerius said:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544

    Pretty weak troll if you ask me.

    in 1911 the average speed was ~28.4km/h and in 2006 it was ~41km/h
    Anyone that rides a bike must know the difference between these two
    speeds. Any Fred can do 28km/h

    The roads they were riding over were almost entirely unsurfaced, and the
    bikes they were using were heavy singlespeeds. Very few Freds can do
    28Km/h for any distance on unsurfaced roads on a singlespeed.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ;; Sending your money to someone just because they've erected
    ;; a barrier of obscurity and secrets around the tools you
    ;; need to use your data does not help the economy or spur
    ;; innovation. - Waffle Iron Slashdot, June 16th, 2002

  19. Donald Munro a écrit :

    Quoted message said:
    Jobst Brandt said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    > members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    >

    Sandy said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're a total jerk.

    Dan Connelly said:

    That was nice and constructive. Since you didn't dispute any of our points, it might be assumed you generally agree.

    Total is a French oil company.


    That's some Fine Elfin humor.

  20. in message <[email hidden]>, Fred

    Clydesdale (') said:


    Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:

    (snippage 'til you want to scream.)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Jobst Brandt

    You're a total jerk.

    That was nice and constructive. Since you didn't dispute any of our
    points, it might be assumed you generally agree.

    one can't help but notice that jobst is frequently right.

    one also can't help but notice that, should he ever err, an admission
    of same will not be forthcoming. at best, one can hope for infuriating
    silence.

    Or else, when really backed into a corner, he'll call you a liar.

    Shame. He's an impressive cyclist with a lot of real (and useful)
    knowledge. But seeing he writes with the same assurance and authority when
    he's spouting total bollocks as when discoursing on areas of genuine
    expertise, it's very difficult to trust anything he says.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ;; Let's have a moment of silence for all those Americans who are stuck
    ;; in traffic on their way to the gym to ride the stationary bicycle.
    ;; Rep. Earl Blumenauer (Dem, OR)

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